[QUOTE=WebLurker;3376385]
I don't think that's evidence that he was failing. Good fighters know how to move things to their advantage.[/QUOTE]
He also had no desire to harm Rey; that also somehow keeps getting overlooked.
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color]
[QUOTE=Buried Alien;3376436]He also had no desire to harm Rey; that also somehow keeps getting overlooked.
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]
I think you're right about that.
[QUOTE=Buried Alien;3376232][B]Ben Solo wasn't Anakin Skywalker, and what had worked with Anakin probably wouldn't have worked with Ben.[/B] Luke reacted as you might expect most Jedi would to the presence of a Dark Side-user...lightsaber drawn.
He relented, though, because that was his nephew, and his innate decency kicked in.
If Luke *had* stricken Ben down at that point, in light of what Ben was already in the process of becoming, what was the worst that could have happened?
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]
Why? Why couldn't it have worked? Remember Luke Barely knew Vader. BARELY KNEW HIM! And yet in ROTJ he willing surrendered himself with the intentions of saving his father from the clutches of the Emperor. So it kinda seems a bit odd that Luke would be willing to save a man that he barely knew rather than the boy he's probably known alot longer.
Luke is not like most Jedi. He's not held down by the old ways or at least he should not have been. Apparently Rian Johnson thought otherwise.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;3376294]Of course he's blinked before this. Luke tapped into the dark side the second Vader threatened to turn Leia. That was the spark that ignited his rage. He proceeded to attack Vader in anger till he severed his hand and came inches from murdering him. His hand was stayed at the last moment via his willpower which showed his true character. He overcame the temptation and raw power that was the dark side. But he most definitely blinked.[/QUOTE]
Yes Luke reacted with anger but when given the decision to kill his father or not he chose not to, he remembered who he was.....He didn't blink in the face of the Emperor. He told the Emperor that he was a Jedi and would always be one.
Fast forward to TLJ....He was faced with the rising darkness in Kylo he could either try to reason with him and appeal to the good still in him or he could contemplate killing him thus saving potential lives or ending said lives.....and the writers chose the latter. and so He blinked.
[QUOTE=WebLurker;3376385]Snoke redirected it while it was still in the air. On Ach-To, Rey already had it in her hand before he realized what had happened. I also think it's safe to say that he'd burned through his will to fight as well.
It wasn't that Kylo had flipped that made him consider himself a failure, it was the fact that he'd considered murdering his nephew for something he might do in the future. Luke does explain this when telling Rey the full story about what happened. It might seem out of character, but he did see everything he'd worked to build fall apart because of that mistake and we're not privy to everything that happened between the trilogies. At any rate, it's not without precedent; the comic series [I]Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith[/I] does establish that some Jedi do withdraw from all Jedi affairs (to the point that such Jedi could not investigate Order 66 while the vow was still active) and go into self-exile for a perceived failing until such a time that they feel they've atoned for it. Luke did not apparently take the specific vow and was even more restrictive then the vow's requirements, but under the circumstances, I think it made sense.
I don't think that's evidence that he was failing. Good fighters know how to move things to their advantage.[/QUOTE]
If Snoke could redirect that lightsaber, I'm sure Luke could have ended the brief scuffle some sort of way that didn't involved him getting knocked down by a Novice. I mean dear God she was swinging the Lightsaber like a kid in a toy store a couple of scenes prior. And you can say I'm wrong if you want too but I mean think about it. TLJ takes place days after The Force awakens Rey has never held a lightsaber before that point or had any prior training and yet she had LUke on the backpeddle...still don't buy it.
Yes it is out of Character for Luke to think about Killing his own nephew than trying to appeal to the goodness in him. He went to Kylo with the intentions of killing him. I see some people saying that this revelation is ground-breaking...but is it tho? It seems a bit silly to me.
I'm not privy to the comics. My pull list already too big and to add Star Wars in would be a bit too much.
Yes Good fighters know how to move things to their advantage. They also know how to deal with someone who doesn't know a thing Or at least not supposed to know a thing about sword fighting.
[video=youtube;djmT9ouPFwU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djmT9ouPFwU[/video]
No harm done to the novice....a clear line between Master and Apprentice.
[QUOTE=Buried Alien;3376436]He also had no desire to harm Rey; that also somehow keeps getting overlooked.
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]
FYI, you don't have to harm someone to disarm them. It's about skill and technique which Luke is supposed to have.
[QUOTE=Soubhagya;3376254]No Rey did not beat Luke. Luke had the upper hand. She was nothing in front of him till she got that light saber and surprised Luke. At least that's how i remember it. If someone is going to the film again, please confirm it for us. Its no more in my local theater. Or maybe we can wait till the home release.
I do have the Wookipedia(if that is reliable?)
[URL="http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi"]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi[/URL]
Fans cite the Original Trilogy so many times but a little more attention can clear up a few contentions. In Return Of The Jedi when Luke beat Darth Vader wasn't he angry and was trying to kill his father during the light saber battle till he disarmed him? After that he changed his mind and threw away his light saber. Or those furious attacks were not of a lethal nature?
He contemplated killing Ben but immediately stopped himself from doing it. Or just thinking something like that is not possible. Say someone of us is sent back by a time machine to the past. The time when Hitler was 18 years old. Any decent person can contemplate killing him. After all he is going to be one of the worst monsters in human history. He would bring countless suffering to others. Millions of people will die due to his cruelty. Wouldn't it be better to stop it before such a calamity happens? I am not saying that one shall kill someone before he has committed a crime. That's an entirely different and a much trickier issue. But its something any decent person could consider. Regardless of what they end up choosing.
Yes he saved Darth Vader. But he had seen first hand what a Darth Vader can do. He lost his own uncle and aunt as well as many of his friends. Countless lives were lost in that struggle. Alderaan itself had so many innocent lives lost. Within the years he would have thought of these events. Darth Vader was instrumental to the Empire and brought so much suffering to the galaxy.
Now sensing the same darkness in his own nephew and student isn't it natural that he briefly contemplated to just stop such a tragedy from even happening? But since he was Luke Skywalker he did not do it.[/QUOTE]
Rey Clearly had the upper hand in that fight, backpeddling was all Luke could do to keep her at bay.
Fans keep citing the OT because This NT keeps retredding and stepping on and over several established aspects that were set. YES! Luke did let his anger get the best of him for a moment however he did not go to his father with the intentions of killing him. He wanted to save Vader and for a moment he was tempted by the emperor to kill him, but he resisted.
THE LAST JEDI, LUKE sensed darkness in Kylo and then went to him with the intentions of killing him. There is clearly a difference between the two scenes.
Luke should not have even contemplated such a thing because he had not done anything yet. Just becuase he saw it in a vision does not necessarily mean that it would come true. THat was a lesson covered in ESB. Yoda told Luke that always in motion the Future is. So that means nothing is set in Stone.
And Time Travel, have you not heard of the butterfly effect or Back to the Future.
Luke found a shred of good in Vader. I'm sure he coudl have found some good in Kylo but I guess not.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408]If Snoke could redirect that lightsaber, I'm sure Luke could have ended the brief scuffle some sort of way that didn't involved him getting knocked down by a Novice. I mean dear God she was swinging the Lightsaber like a kid in a toy store a couple of scenes prior. And you can say I'm wrong if you want too but I mean think about it. TLJ takes place days after The Force awakens Rey has never held a lightsaber before that point or had any prior training and yet she had LUke on the backpeddle...still don't buy it.[/quote]
We already know that she had experience in melee combat. As I recall, Luke just gave up after she got the saber. A staff isn't much use against a laser sword, after all. I think I agree with the other posters that he didn't seem to putting everything into it (he'd also spent six years cutting himself off from the Force). Also, redirecting the saber in the air is a bit different than pulling it out of someone's grasp. (For what it's worth, Snoke seemed to have more time to react before she got it than Luke did.) I would like it when the novelization comes out and we might be able to get more info on what as going on in the characters' heads, but I guess it made enough sense to me in context.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408]Yes it is out of Character for Luke to think about Killing his own nephew than trying to appeal to the goodness in him. He went to Kylo with the intentions of killing him. I see some people saying that this revelation is ground-breaking...but is it tho? It seems a bit silly to me.[/quote]
Given that we don't know where Luke was at that point in life, I was inclined to just go with it. Besides, the movie does make it clear that he was utterly in the wrong there.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408]I'm not privy to the comics. My pull list already too big and to add Star Wars in would be a bit too much.[/quote]
Yeah, there are a lot of them out there. This story was in [I]Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith Vol. 1: Imperial Machine[/I] if you're library stocks trade paperbacks.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408]Yes Good fighters know how to move things to their advantage. They also know how to deal with someone who doesn't know a thing Or at least not supposed to know a thing about sword fighting.
[video=youtube;djmT9ouPFwU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djmT9ouPFwU[/video]
No harm done to the novice....a clear line between Master and Apprentice.[/QUOTE]
As I recall, Luke had the upper had before she got the saber, at which point he essentially gave up. Whether he gave up since she had the high ground or he just didn't want to deal with it anymore is anyone's guess until the novelization confirms one way or the other.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408]Why? Why couldn't it have worked? Remember Luke Barely knew Vader. BARELY KNEW HIM! And yet in ROTJ he willing surrendered himself with the intentions of saving his father from the clutches of the Emperor. So it kinda seems a bit odd that Luke would be willing to save a man that he barely knew rather than the boy he's probably known alot longer.[/QUOTE]
There's this huge difference between a 20-ish year old young man who never really failed in anything, and a 50-ish year old version of the same man who has grown older and wiser and experienced some failures in the last 30 years.
People are not static. There is absolutely no reason why Luke's personality wouldn't cjange significantly over three decades.
[QUOTE]If Snoke could redirect that lightsaber, I'm sure Luke could have ended the brief scuffle some sort of way that didn't involved him getting knocked down by a Novice. I mean dear God she was swinging the Lightsaber like a kid in a toy store a couple of scenes prior. And you can say I'm wrong if you want too but I mean think about it. TLJ takes place days after The Force awakens Rey has never held a lightsaber before that point or had any prior training and yet she had LUke on the backpeddle...still don't buy it.[/QUOTE]
But that would require him to actually use force, be confrontational, which isn't really in his nature anymore.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377410]FYI, you don't have to harm someone to disarm them. It's about skill and technique which Luke is supposed to have.[/QUOTE]
But there is no reason to disarm her. The only reason would be to save his ego.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377451]Rey Clearly had the upper hand in that fight, backpeddling was all Luke could do to keep her at bay.
Fans keep citing the OT because This NT keeps retredding and stepping on and over several established aspects that were set. YES! Luke did let his anger get the best of him for a moment however he did not go to his father with the intentions of killing him. He wanted to save Vader and for a moment he was tempted by the emperor to kill him, but he resisted.
THE LAST JEDI, LUKE sensed darkness in Kylo and then went to him with the intentions of killing him. There is clearly a difference between the two scenes.
Luke should not have even contemplated such a thing because he had not done anything yet. Just becuase he saw it in a vision does not necessarily mean that it would come true. THat was a lesson covered in ESB. Yoda told Luke that always in motion the Future is. So that means nothing is set in Stone.
And Time Travel, have you not heard of the butterfly effect or Back to the Future.
Luke found a shred of good in Vader. I'm sure he coudl have found some good in Kylo but I guess not.[/QUOTE]
And Luke did not resist killing Kylo? He merely thought for a moment or so before deciding against it.
Darth Vader did change back. But before that he brought so much pain and suffering to the galaxy. He found the same darkness in Kylo to consider killing him.
Darth Vader was never completely evil like the Emperor. He had some good within him all throughout. But he was largely dominated by darkness till he found he had his son as his enemy. That was when he was truly conflicted. That conflict was sensed by Luke as he tried to bring him back to the light side and succeeded. But before he could do that Darth Vader was a menace to the galaxy. He brought so much suffering.
Kylo was like that too. Dominated by darkness. But he had that conflict too. Which by the end of TLJ is almost over. After all he has surpassed Darth Vader and become the Supreme Leader himself. But that night Luke could sense the same darkness in Ben which was in Vader. He could have thought to just finish it before Kylo could do the kind of damage Vader did. By that time Ben had fully turned. But that was a 'momentary' thought. Perhaps he was going to talk and try to bring him back as you suggested. But Ben found him in that moment with the light saber held high. And all hell broke loose.
And the fight was such that Rey was disarmed. I remember rather easily. But she got that light saber and Luke just stopped fighting. That's how i remember it.
[QUOTE=the nomad;3377408][B]Why? Why couldn't it have worked? Remember Luke Barely knew Vader. BARELY KNEW HIM! And yet in ROTJ he willing surrendered himself with the intentions of saving his father from the clutches of the Emperor. So it kinda seems a bit odd that Luke would be willing to save a man that he barely knew rather than the boy he's probably known alot longer.
[/B]
Luke is not like most Jedi. He's not held down by the old ways or at least he should not have been. Apparently Rian Johnson thought otherwise.
Yes Luke reacted with anger but when given the decision to kill his father or not he chose not to, he remembered who he was.....He didn't blink in the face of the Emperor. He told the Emperor that he was a Jedi and would always be one.
Fast forward to TLJ....He was faced with the rising darkness in Kylo he could either try to reason with him and appeal to the good still in him or he could contemplate killing him thus saving potential lives or ending said lives.....and the writers chose the latter. and so He blinked.
[/QUOTE]
Being powerful in the Force gives the ability to sense the intent as well as dark or light side of someone. He sensed the conflict in Vader. He sensed the darkness in Kylo. He might have taken care of Vader but not before Vader left a trail of blazing destruction.
[quote]Yes Luke reacted with anger but when given the decision to kill his father or not he chose not to, he remembered who he was.....He didn't blink in the face of the Emperor. He told the Emperor that he was a Jedi and would always be one.
Fast forward to TLJ....He was faced with the rising darkness in Kylo he could either try to reason with him and appeal to the good still in him or he could contemplate killing him thus saving potential lives or ending said lives.....and the writers chose the latter. and so He blinked. [/quote]
You're moving the goal posts. You said Luke's never blinked. He did. He stood up to the Emperor, but before that Vader got to him by insinuating he would go after Leia. Luke is using the dark side when he's raging on Vader with a clear upper hand for the very first time. The order of which it happened is irrelevant, it happened. It happens again in TLJ. Luke teeters on the edge of a dark decision but relents. Just like ROTJ. Doesn't mean one has to like that it happened again, that's up to the individual viewer, but its a falsehood to claim that Luke is a character that never blinked.
I don't think the moment hurts his character at all. Fighting the dark is a constant struggle for a Jedi. Luke faces two big tests (that we see on screen at least) and overcomes. He doesn't deliver the death blow to Vader. He doesn't take out the growing threat of Ben. I personally think its looking at things from the wrong perspective to focus on what Luke considered, over what he actually did do.
I'm conflicted on it. I liked the send off but not the set up.
That wasn't Luke Skywalker.
Simple as that, it just wasn't this character. But eh, can't write a new story without shitting all over the old one right?
Han Solo, a loser who died at the hand of his loser of a son. Luke, who was replaced by a parody of himself. And Leia of course, from Krypton.
(Chewie? who's Chewie? He's a character from the movie?)
Luke Skywalker would never abandon his friends.
[QUOTE=Starter Set;3565149]That wasn't Luke Skywalker.
Simple as that, it just wasn't this character. [/QUOTE]
It wasn't young Jedi Apprentice Luke Skywalker. It was an elderly Jedi Master Luke Skywalker who'd gone through some ****, to say the least. Which is kind of a relevant distinction. He's a character 18 years old when the saga begins, and in his 60's by the end of the latest chapter.
I'll sit here and wait for anyone to provide even one example of any human being who is the exactly the same person they were late teens-to twenties to when they're in their elder years. Actually I'm not going to wait, because I'd be waiting forever as such an example does not exist.
[QUOTE=Serpico Jones;3565170]Luke Skywalker would never abandon his friends.[/QUOTE]
Indeed he wouldn't.
We are talking about the man who believed there was still good even in a despicable person such as Vader. But in the last joke they would have us believe that this man would murder his own nephew, during his sleep no less, just because he was a bit edgy.
Yeah, brilliant. Truly a masterpiece of writing.
I'd argue that he did kind of at Endor, his actions on the Death Star didn't have any impact on the battle outside, although I guess he pretty much kept the Emperor and Vader from escaping, or taking a more active hand in commanding the battle (Palpatine in particular was so focused on Luke he didn't seem to notice that Lando's tactics were actually working). Although non-canon, The Thrawn novels actually went a bit further with that; Palpatine was coordinating the battle with his mind ("Battle mediation") and once he died, the fleet lost direction entirely and started losing in spectacular fashion with the destruction of the Executor and later the DS itself. (Hence Thrawn seeking out C'baoth so he can have similar efficiency).