Idea 5G replacements and Tims Generation

Hello,
as far as I understood its not really sure right now who will replace
Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Flash
Green Lantern

in their roles, but it will be seemingly one of the 5G generation.


I am personally NOT a fan of it, but I would find it interesting if Tims Generation than would take another way and use Code-Names etc. which are not related anymore to their "Mentors". I personally like the idea of Tims Generation becoming independent and because they have seen the flaws etc. of their mentors just decide to build up their own legacy.
I mean since other people have taken over their code-names etc. it would be only logical and cool if they build up something on their own and I really hope that Conner, Tim, Cassie,Bart will age up as well.

Green Arrow and some other JL members could join their team as well, because the Split of Green Arrow was already teased at Roys Grave.

[B]1. Jonathan/Conner:
[/B]I would like Conner with 21 years getting a new Code-Name, NOT anything with Super-, -boy, -lad....something like Steelfire,Steel-Eagle,....or something like that.
It would be cool if he makes clear that Jonathan can take over the mantle of Superboy and Superman, BUT!! he will ALWAYS be only the Nr. 2
He was the Nr. 2 as Superboy and he will be the Nr. 2 as Superman

So Jonathan will never be an Individual but only a copy, while Conner decides to step out of Clarks shadow and become better than Clark.

[B]2. Bart/Wallace:[/B]
Similar scenario here.
In graduation day Bart said already that Flash will be in his shadow, so they can use this line again.

Same for the others.

[B]Relationship with former Mentors:[/B]

They all have a kind of strained relationship with their mentors already, so it seems only logical for them to split from them:

[B]1. Bart Allen:[/B]
Bart always prefered Wally over Barry, he said that also in Rebirth, so it would only be logical if he dont even consider Barry as his mentor.
Especially when it comes out that Barry changed the timeline.
Bart was also more mentored by Jay and Max than Wally.

[B]Conner Kent:[/B]
Conner was more mentored by Jonathan Kent and Martha Kent, so it would be not a great deal to leave Superman out of his life.

[B]Cassandra Sandsmark:[/B]
Cassandra was trained by Artemis and she was closer to Donna than to Diana.

[B]Tim Drake:[/B]
Tim has currently an extremely strained relationship with Bruce, so also no problem.

[B]Result:[/B]

It would be nice to see some members of the JL teaming up with Tims Generation and Green Arrow could use his money and influence to build a HQ for Tims Team.
He could also help the Team with money etc.
So Tim could work with him, study in College with Stephanie, he could pay Cassies School, Conners School, help Teen Lantern to move to USA.

I would LOVE to see then a kind of rivalry between the 2 sections.
Tims Generation can then also prove that they are better, since they have more experience, are closer friends and work longer together than the 5G does.

It would also be AWESOME to see finally someone challenge the "Perfection" of the JL and also argue with them and not see them just as perfect Gods.

I like the idea of Tim's generation becoming independent though I don't see GA or former JL members joining their team. The age gap is too much.

Not sure what you mean by rivalry? Seeing who solves cases quicker? Attempting to be at the crime scene 1st? Slandering the other team?

I don't want that. Doesn't feel heroic.

Also Tim's relationship with Bruce isn't strained.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4677194]I like the idea of Tim's generation becoming independent though I don't see GA or former JL members joining their team. The age gap is too much.

Not sure what you mean by rivalry? Seeing who solves cases quicker? Attempting to be at the crime scene 1st? Slandering the other team?

I don't want that. Doesn't feel heroic.

Also Tim's relationship with Bruce isn't strained.[/QUOTE]

I dont see a problem in the age gap, since its not based on age, but rather on becoming a "better" JL and becoming a team, because of being disgusted what the JL became.
So I see more or less 2 fractions:

1. Original JL with their protegees:
Superman Clark-Jon, Batman Bruce-Damian, Flash Barry-Wallace....

2. NEW Team with Tims Generation:
Green Arrow and some other JL members like Vixen,Hawkgirl or so...with Bart,Tim,Conner,Cassie...

With rivalry I mean that the fractions are COMPLETELY independent and they also kind of HATE the Original JL, because of their attitude etc.

Green Arrow already blamed the JL for Roys Death, if it comes out that it was BARRY-who changed the timeline there could be a perfect reason for Split:
There are enough heroes who lost things to the timeline change, so if it comes out that Barry changed the timeline its a good reason for split, especially for the one who lost someone.
And there is a new generation who took over their codenames and also old conflicts can break out:

for example Conner:
Conner lost his past, his home at Smallville, his Ma (Martha Kent) because of the timeline change and now another guy has his codename and took over his place.
AND dont forget that he and the rest of YJ was always critized by the JL etc.
Clark also mentored Jon more than he did to Conner.

I would LOVE to see them confronting the JL because of all that.

Barry changed the whole timeline and Batman,Superman,Wonder Woman...still support him, while they critized Conner,Bart,Tim...while they were in YJ.
Changing the timeline is something more drastic than the YJ ever did. Barry really screwed it up.

So I could see a lot of reasons for split:
-Barry supporters vs People who are mad at Barry
-former proteges who are mad at their former mentors
-former proteges who lost their codenames
-members who dont get the respect who they deserve

So a rivalry based on hate, DONT fight each other, but real tension, blaming the JL for many things etc.
Also go against their former mentors if necessary.

Good example was Cassie with Diana in Pre-Flashpoint, she confronted Diana at Graduation Day because Diana only talks about peace, but in reality starts fights..she also argued with Diana, because Diana left after IC when she needed Diana after Conners Death.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4677194]I like the idea of Tim's generation becoming independent though I don't see GA or former JL members joining their team. The age gap is too much.

Not sure what you mean by rivalry? Seeing who solves cases quicker? Attempting to be at the crime scene 1st? Slandering the other team?

I don't want that. Doesn't feel heroic.

Also Tim's relationship with Bruce isn't strained.[/QUOTE]

I like this post. A lot.

Heroic.
So lets NOT turn these people into anti-heroes against their masters for once.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4677194]I like the idea of Tim's generation becoming independent though I don't see GA or former JL members joining their team. The age gap is too much.

Not sure what you mean by rivalry? Seeing who solves cases quicker? Attempting to be at the crime scene 1st? Slandering the other team?

I don't want that. Doesn't feel heroic.

Also Tim's relationship with Bruce isn't strained.[/QUOTE]


Agree. Except I think Tim's realtionship with Bruce [b]should[/b] be strained - he treats other members of the BatClan badly, IMO. Bruce needs either consequences to his actions and/or (preferably) to simply stop acting that way.

I agree there is no reason to rivalry the teams. Mutual respect is what it should be about.

I don't think they need to mix teams [i]at this point[/i] - I'm not a fan of "uneven" teams where there are clearly senior and junior members. They should be peers who regard each other as equals. Which could work fine in two or three years, once Tim's gen are adults who have all established themselves as solo, adult heroes.

Love the idea of them all being independent and not having names based on their mentors - that's something I've complained about before. The spinoff (sometimes legacy) names, of course, work from a business-sense. From a story-telling sense, I'd much prefer they do their own thing instead basing their identities on mentors or using "family" names as adults. That keeps them in satellite roles, IMO. I much prefer Impulse and Spoiler to Kid Flash and Batgirl. The names they chose themselves instead of hand-me-down codenames. Especially ones that would sound ridiculous for 40 year olds. But GA building their headquarters for them is the opposite of independent. Independent means funding themselves. They have a lot more standing to make their own rules when they're not spending someone else's cash.

My preferred versions are earlier and more old YJ era than old TT era.

Bart - mentored by Max. Not Jay. Doesn't have substantive relationships with Wally or especially Barry, but could form them.
Kon - his family is Dubbilex and Roxy and he has no mentor figure and a more distant (cousinly) relationship with Superman and none with Jonathan or Martha. I wouldn't rank them, but if I did, Kara, not Kon, would be #2 - she's got the seniority. Or would if they didn't keep deaging/remaking her.
Cass - trained by Aretmis, and knows Diana better than Donna (who she barely knows)

[QUOTE] Except I think Tim's realtionship with Bruce should be strained - he treats other members of the BatClan badly, IMO. Bruce needs either consequences to his actions and/or (preferably) to simply stop acting that way.
[/QUOTE]

Nah. He's good. The batfamily pretty much loves their dad.

He's crotchety and OVERBEARING, but he's that way because he literally KNOWS whats best for us and intends whats best for everyone.
He's been doing what he's doing longer and better than any of the batkids and they pretty much have to know their place as long as they're considered "bat-family" by dc


He's not going to change. Nor should he.

His consquence if anything, is knowing that when he's gone he'll have trained his progeny not to be idiots and the flocks will be safe when he rests.

If anything the kids will grow up and say Damn. Dad was right.

Except for Dick. Dick was kept the closest, and he was the first... so he knows the old mans foibles and soft spots better than any of the others. The rest of them are either "In awe" or just thankful they were able to be a part of something
so amazing. Even the minor rebellions will lead them back to him in the end.

[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4677352]Nah. He's good. The batfamily pretty much loves their dad.

He's crotchety and OVERBEARING, but he's that way because he literally KNOWS whats best for us and intends whats best for everyone.
He's been doing what he's doing longer and better than any of the batkids and they pretty much have to know their place as long as they're considered "bat-family" by dc


He's not going to change. Nor should he.

If anything the kids will grow up and say Damn. Dad was right.

Except for Dick. Dick was kept the closest, and he was the first... so he knows the old mans foibles and soft spots better than any of the others. The rest of them are either "In awe" or just thankful they were able to be a part of something
so amazing. Even the minor rebellions will lead them back to him in the end.[/QUOTE]
I disagree so extremely that it's difficult to find the words. I think Bruce is not only overbearing, but emotionally abusive. I think he is entirely WRONG about what is right is for them and they should grow up and realize how wrong he is and stop following his instructions in many respects. That their place should always be subordinate is entirely wrong-headed to me and I think they they need to move the hell out of his shadow as they grow up (which Dick got to, but got moved back in).

The idea that the others should still be in awe of Batman when they've grown up and known him long is just wrong-headed to me. They need to realize how screwed up and wrong-headed he is and how he is [i]not[/i] Batgod, not always right, and as capable of making mistakes and misjudgements as anyone else (themselves included). Sometimes one of them will be right and him wrong, and that's appropriate. I certainly don't want them back the way Tim was when new - with the belief that if you just did everything Batman said, nothing could hurt you. That anything that went wrong had to be the fault of someone else. It's an extremely unrealistic, unhealthy, and dangerous viewpoint. Also victim-blaming to Jason.

I also think Dick has been doing this nearly as long as Bruce and (per original timeline) longer than Diana or Hal. And all heroes, once past the rookie stage, should regard each other as equals worthy of each other's respect. Another element, frankly, that Batman lost long ago. We the audience may rank them, but they should never perceive themselves in such away.

[QUOTE]
I disagree so extremely that it's difficult to find the words[/QUOTE]
Yeah I kind of figured you would. and thats fine.

He's set himself up to be quite the Patriarch in practice. Thats not likely to change.
Thing thing is. [I][B]He IS BATGOD[/B][/I] more often than not, [I][B]he DOESN'T make mistakes [/B][/I] and the mistakes he makes actually ARE because... well...

He trusted you.

That was his mistake.

Now were talking from a narrative perspective here... Jason Died because he disobeyed. I know a lot of people don't remember that because they were young but the narrative was literally about
him being reckless and aggressive.

You'd basically have to change the idea of who batman is to get to a point where he's always wrong headed and his batkids rebel against him.

The thing is the thing thats missed is in the super hero Narrative "He's their dad" and that creates a scenario where only Dick is going to be close enough to be like "I'm gonna go against you dad"

The rest of the kids... they never get close enough... he never letst the GET close enough to see beyond the cowl to the human inside to rebel against.

They're in his sway like an army of batfans and most of the villains he fights.

Funny... I'm not even a bat fan but .... I can look at the situation and say. All of those people who put on the Cowl, and bow to his will... they're a LIFETIME away from breaking away from what
dad wants.

Further the only thing he really does is say "Don't kill". Jason even circumvented that. Aside from that its just a scenario where he's created the army of which he's the general.

They're never going to get away from that .... not in our lifetime. In fact. . . if you get to the point that they do... Typically a universal reset is coming.

All the robins *and near robins and azraels , and outsiders are all one blink of a monitors eye away from going back to Dick being robin. or Just becoming nightwing again.

[QUOTE=Tzigone;4677358]I disagree so extremely that it's difficult to find the words. I think Bruce is not only overbearing, but emotionally abusive. I think he is entirely WRONG about what is right is for them and they should grow up and realize how wrong he is and stop following his instructions in many respects. That their place should always be subordinate is entirely wrong-headed to me and I think they they need to move the hell out of his shadow as they grow up (which Dick got to, but got moved back in).

The idea that the others should still be in awe of Batman when they've grown up and known him long is just wrong-headed to me. They need to realize how screwed up and wrong-headed he is and how he is [i]not[/i] Batgod, not always right, and as capable of making mistakes and misjudgements as anyone else (themselves included). Sometimes one of them will be right and him wrong, and that's appropriate. I certainly don't want them back the way Tim was when new - with the belief that if you just did everything Batman said, nothing could hurt you. That anything that went wrong had to be the fault of someone else. It's an extremely unrealistic, unhealthy, and dangerous viewpoint. Also victim-blaming to Jason.

I also think Dick has been doing this nearly as long as Bruce and (per original timeline) longer than Diana or Hal. And all heroes, once past the rookie stage, should regard each other as equals worthy of each other's respect. Another element, frankly, that Batman lost long ago. We the audience may rank them, but they should never perceive themselves in such away.[/QUOTE]

There was a time when Bruce knew what was best for the Bat family, but that time has long passed.Current Bruce is a broken hero who can't save anyone, alienates his allies, directly/ indirectly makes Gotham worse and doesn't know what's good for himself anymore.

All this talk about mentoring and splitting the heroes, well here's a lesson to learn. Marvel's Champions wanted to do things their own way, after becoming disgusted with the Avengers fighting each other and not cleaning up after battles. However, they were never able to fully divorce from the Avengers. Their leader Ms. Marvel thinks so highly of Captain Marvel and Iron Man that she calls them her superhero parents - they're her main mentors. Though Carol was largely to blame for the incident that led the Champs to split off, as she knocked Tony into a coma. Spider-Man's departure from the Avengers actually led to the senior Spider-Man joining in his place. Peter and Miles have always been on good terms. Ironheart, of course, is also mentored by Iron Man. Viv Vision and the Unstoppable Wasp are the biggest ties though, as Viv's father and Nadia's adoptive mother are Vision and the original Wasp, two of the historic core Avengers. The Young Justice team's ties to the Justice League have never been THAT tight.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4677756]All this talk about mentoring and splitting the heroes, well here's a lesson to learn. Marvel's Champions wanted to do things their own way, after becoming disgusted with the Avengers fighting each other and not cleaning up after battles. However, they were never able to fully divorce from the Avengers. Their leader Ms. Marvel thinks so highly of Captain Marvel and Iron Man that she calls them her superhero parents - they're her main mentors. Though Carol was largely to blame for the incident that led the Champs to split off, as she knocked Tony into a coma. Spider-Man's departure from the Avengers actually led to the senior Spider-Man joining in his place. Peter and Miles have always been on good terms. Ironheart, of course, is also mentored by Iron Man. Viv Vision and the Unstoppable Wasp are the biggest ties though, as Viv's father and Nadia's adoptive mother are Vision and the original Wasp, two of the historic core Avengers. The Young Justice team's ties to the Justice League have never been THAT tight.[/QUOTE]

It's kind of weird that Marvel the 'more cynical' universe according to some people has their teen heroes have better relationships with their mentors than DC. Besides Bruce and Dick(though Bruce strained that relationship over the years) and Wally and Barry have the JL ever been tight with any of their so called proteges(not counting the YJ characters)?