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[QUOTE=Frontier;5870236]I haven't seen any indication that Waid is just going to regurgitate the same old stories[/QUOTE]
Inherently that's what setting a book in the past and making a point to advertise that you're using older characters means. You're inherently looking for some sort of twist of some kind on the classic match up of Batman/Superman vs Joker or Lex or whoever else.
And that has it's plus side, for sure. But, me myself? I don't need that stuff right this second. There's a time and place for it, and right now isn't it for me.
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;5870143]In my personal opinion, that's not playing ball. That's closer to playing stick ball over to the side and pretending like MLB isn't a thing.
It would be one thing if both were BL books. I'd still find it a bit childish that the man couldn't even TRY to do something with the new ideas and characters in the main continuity, but it would totally out of the way and fine. But one of these books is in continuity and seemingly taking up the "team up book" spot and it going to this just doesn't sit right with me. Not in a general sense, but in a timing sense. This book being a thing RIGHT NOW isn't playing ball to me.
But like I've said before, my opinions are my own, and you're welcome to enjoy this book and others like it with no ill will from me.[/QUOTE]
Why would Waid want to play ball? He is a acomplished writer, have some of the most iconic DC stories under his belt, did some really good work at Marvel including the most unique Daredevil run in decades, and right now is a the publisher of Humanoids. Do you really think he went after DC to pitch this for them? They went after him.
If I was an accomplished writer into my 60s, with a challenging fun job and money, why would I go back to freelance work if not to do the type work I wanted to do? Would you?
This book would exists with or without Waid, if not him it would be Jurgens, Williamson, Sheridan or whatever, but DC would be publishing a Bruce/Clark team-up comic. Now, on this we share a similar opinion, I would honestly prefer seeing Hawkman, Bronze Tiger, Vixen or some other b or c list getting a shot than another Batman/Superman story.
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;5870250]Inherently that's what setting a book in the past and making a point to advertise that you're using older characters means. You're inherently looking for some sort of twist of some kind on the classic match up of Batman/Superman vs Joker or Lex or whoever else.
And that has it's plus side, for sure. But, me myself? I don't need that stuff right this second. There's a time and place for it, and right now isn't it for me.[/QUOTE]
But from what Waid's said in interviews that doesn't seem to be what he's interested in.
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Other than when this book is set, I don't see Waid treading old ground despite its context. I think someone said this several pages back, Superman's major stories comprise mainly of his origin, death or rather, his end and a few in-between to fill in the gap. Going back in time doesn't mean retelling old stories even if you're using old existing villains. I've been on a wait and see mode for a while now and can't see any harm in doing so with Waid. Who knows, he might actually surprise people.
As to why they went with Bruce/Clark combo instead of Jace/Jon or Yara/Jon after FS, I would have thought that was self explanatory ...ahem **Bruce**
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[QUOTE=Frontier;5870328]But from what Waid's said in interviews that doesn't seem to be what he's interested in.[/QUOTE]
What has he said to make you think he's interested in doing anything other than using all of the classics but in potentially tweaked contexts and situations to produce would still ultimately be a classic style story but with a bit of a twist?
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[QUOTE=rpmaluki;5870362]Other than when this book is set, I don't see Waid treading old ground despite its context. I think someone said this several pages back, Superman's major stories comprise mainly of his origin, death or rather, his end and a few in-between to fill in the gap. Going back in time doesn't mean retelling old stories even if you're using old existing villains. I've been on a qait and see mode for a while now and can't see any ha on doing so with Waid. Who knows, he might actually surprise people.
As to why they went with Bruce/Clark combo instead of Jace/Jon or Yara/Jon after FS, I would have thought that was self explanatory ...ahem **Bruce**[/QUOTE]
My thing is the fact that that's just not true. Clark has had loads of stories in between those points. How good they were is another matter. But his issue is ultimately that no one cares. He's been crystalized in the collective lexicon with those stories. It's an uphill battle to go against that, and Waid's lone book isn't really going to change that.
"Bruce" is an excuse that wasn't even going to be valid if 5G had happened. The real issue is simply an industry that's comfortable. Bruce is only a symptom of that, and his books are quickly going the way of Spider-Man's: published out of obligation and very quickly hitting their conceptual peak, but maintaining a readership that buys largely out of habit.
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[QUOTE=Quinlan58;5870227]For the above argument of a book with Bruce and Clark selling better, isn't Jon still selling better than Action Comics? Granted, it has the special circumstances of headlines with the title "SUPERMAN IS LGBT", but still selling better anyway.
As for "nostalgia" vs "new stuff"... well, yeah, it's pretty funny that Waid insists this isn't just a nostalgia book when everything up to and including Waid himself as the writer points to it being a nostalgia book, but I don't see this as "taking away a spot in the line". But... Jace/Jon team-up wasn't going to happen anyway, given literally everything we've known about the two since Future State (including that event). I would still enjoy a Jon/Yara book, though. Get the kid out of Taylor's grasp.
If there's anything that got taken away because of this, I would expect it to be Yang's Batman/Superman, which... not sure how to feel about that, because on the one hand Yang's first arc was fire and using nostalgia for great effect, but on the other hand, I still don't think much of Yang's attempts at writing the mainline version of Superman and that dynamic (and his last issue with the mainline versions was significantly weaker than the arc with the serials-inspired versions), so I don't think we missed much there, if he was going to do the mainline versions.[/QUOTE]
Yang left on his own terms apparently, on account of taking on a bunch of projects. Not sure if that’s just his comic work or the Disney+ adaption of his [I]American-Born Chinese[/I] show that’s coming. Given the new editorial head of the Superbooks also edited pretty much every single DC book Yang has done, I feel confident that we’ll see Yang back in the Superline before long.
[QUOTE=Ra-El;5870317]Why would Waid want to play ball? He is a acomplished writer, have some of the most iconic DC stories under his belt, did some really good work at Marvel including the most unique Daredevil run in decades, and right now is a the publisher of Humanoids. Do you really think he went after DC to pitch this for them? They went after him.
[B]If I was an accomplished writer into my 60s, with a challenging fun job and money, why would I go back to freelance work if not to do the type work I wanted to do? [/B]Would you?
This book would exists with or without Waid, if not him it would be Jurgens, Williamson, Sheridan or whatever, but DC would be publishing a Bruce/Clark team-up comic. Now, on this we share a similar opinion, I would honestly prefer seeing Hawkman, Bronze Tiger, Vixen or some other b or c list getting a shot than another Batman/Superman story.[/QUOTE]
Cutting straight to the chase, this is basically why I’m giving Waid a lot of slack. He’s at the end of his career, if he doesn’t take his shot at doing what he wants with Clark, who is the Superman he loves, he’s never going to get another chance. Let’s see if he’s still got the talent and ideas to do something interesting with Clark because soon he’ll be done writing anyway. And yeah if not Waid, we’d probably just get someone else, [I]Batman/Superman[/I] is usually just a solid seller that doesn’t rock the boat much.
[QUOTE=rpmaluki;5870362]Other than when this book is set, I don't see Waid treading old ground despite its context. I think someone said this several pages back, Superman's major stories comprise mainly of his origin, death or rather, his end and a few in-between to fill in the gap. Going back in time doesn't mean retelling old stories even if you're using old existing villains. I've been on a qait and see mode for a while now and can't see any ha on doing so with Waid. Who knows, he might actually surprise people.
As to why they went with Bruce/Clark combo instead of Jace/Jon or Yara/Jon after FS, I would have thought that was self explanatory ...ahem **Bruce**[/QUOTE]
That was me and yes that’s what I want. I want stories with Superman’s underused Rogues and if Waid can give me that here, great! Maybe they’ll use his stories as inspiration for S&L or MAWS, I certainly don’t think it hurts.
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;5870372]What has he said to make you think he's interested in doing anything other than using all of the classics but in potentially tweaked contexts and situations to produce would still ultimately be a classic style story but with a bit of a twist?[/QUOTE]
"Waid told his editor to make sure this doesn’t end up being the “retro book” he wants this to be contemporary and not mired in nostalgia"
Now, I know you found this statement humorous but I took it at face-value coming from Waid.
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[QUOTE=Frontier;5870409]"Waid told his editor to make sure this doesn’t end up being the “retro book” he wants this to be contemporary and not mired in nostalgia"
Now, I know you found this statement humorous but I took it at face-value coming from Waid.[/QUOTE]
Reading about how Dick was checking Twitter before suiting up, or seeing any other set dressing of that kind-- big or small to the plot-- doesn't change things for me personally.
I also cringe pretty hard at what Mark Waid feels is contemporary after Champions. I cringe even harder at what he may feel are a good ways of exploring social issues after Strange Fruit.
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[QUOTE=Ra-El;5870317]Why would Waid want to play ball? He is a acomplished writer, have some of the most iconic DC stories under his belt, did some really good work at Marvel including the most unique Daredevil run in decades, and right now is a the publisher of Humanoids. Do you really think he went after DC to pitch this for them? They went after him.
[B]If I was an accomplished writer into my 60s, with a challenging fun job and money, why would I go back to freelance work if not to do the type work I wanted to do? Would you?
This book would exists with or without Waid,[/B] if not him it would be Jurgens, Williamson, Sheridan or whatever, but DC would be publishing a Bruce/Clark team-up comic. Now, on this we share a similar opinion, I would honestly prefer seeing Hawkman, Bronze Tiger, Vixen or some other b or c list getting a shot than another Batman/Superman story.[/QUOTE]
These are both pretty good points.
We'd be getting a Bruce/Clark book no matter what. Might as well be Waid, and he might as well do what he wants. Action and Taylor's Superman aren't going anywhere because of it, so no harm no foul.
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;5870469]Reading about how Dick was checking Twitter before suiting up, or seeing any other set dressing of that kind-- big or small to the plot-- doesn't change things for me personally.
I also cringe pretty hard at what Mark Waid feels is contemporary after Champions. I cringe even harder at what he may feel are a good ways of exploring social issues after Strange Fruit.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's the sum total of the attempt at making the stories feel contemporary. At least I think of it more in terms of writing sensibilities than modern trappings of the era.
With Champions I think his heart was in the right place even if he wasn't the best choice to write a modern title about a teen Superhero team fresh off the ground (I have no idea if Ignited was better received), but he did a good job with the Archie kids. But he's writing Batman and Superman so I don't think it should be in any way an issue.
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[QUOTE=Ra-El;5870317]If I was an accomplished writer into my 60s, with a challenging fun job and money, why would I go back to freelance work if not to do the type work I wanted to do? Would you?[/QUOTE]
Morrison did it. 4 times actually. And Morrison is a much bigger and much more celebrated named in comics.
Morrison did two seasons of GL plus Black Stars, and he did Superman & The Authority. They did the GL books specifically as swan songs to Hal in prep for 5G, and giving room for the new GL take. And they did Superman 7 The Authority as a proper 5G book with clearly a Superman who wasn't in the classic set up. And both books were deliberately critical of the the past generation.
As a writer Waid certainly doesn't have to play ball, no. No one will force either. But the fact that one of his peers stuck it out for three times as long as they were intending to stay in superhero comics just to play ball even with versions of the characters that weren't his ideal (older Clark) or characters that they didn't really care for (Hal) then doing the retro set in the past book looks some kind of way.
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I mean, Waid's just doing the one book and a BL Superman title. He seems to enjoy the current people at DC so that doesn't really preclude him from writing another title or something set in the modern day but if he's not interested (I think even with Morrison even if it wasn't their personal preference there was probably something conceptual that appealed to them with those titles) then I don't think he should write it.
Waid and Morrison are two very different writers (in a good way) even if they've played off each other before and I think share some similar sensibilities.
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Meh I'm glad Waid can do what he wants on his own terms. Maybe it's because I'm so burned on the overall DC Universe compared to Marvel, but I tend to prefer out of continuity or less shared universe focused series now
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;5870524]Morrison did it. 4 times actually. And Morrison is a much bigger and much more celebrated named in comics.
Morrison did two seasons of GL plus Black Stars, and he did Superman & The Authority. They did the GL books specifically as swan songs to Hal in prep for 5G, and giving room for the new GL take. And they did Superman 7 The Authority as a proper 5G book with clearly a Superman who wasn't in the classic set up. And both books were deliberately critical of the the past generation.
As a writer Waid certainly doesn't have to play ball, no. No one will force either. But the fact that one of his peers stuck it out for three times as long as they were intending to stay in superhero comics just to play ball even with versions of the characters that weren't his ideal (older Clark) or characters that they didn't really care for (Hal) then doing the retro set in the past book looks some kind of way.[/QUOTE]
Morrison's Hal book is also critical of current trends for the classic characters (see the digs at Bendis's Superman, Snyder/King's Batman and Johns's Wonder Woman in Black Stars), as well as being cautionary to the new generation of writers (the new Guardians are cautioned to not think of themselves as too different to their predecessors). It kind of throws some equal opportunity digs in all directions (even at themselves). Despite how weird and experimental it gets, it is very much a throwback to the Silver/Bronze age Hal stories that most current writers won't have use for.
They didn't really "play ball" in the sense that they didn't care for Hal. They've been vocal about liking Hal since at least doing the project, I'd doubt they would have stuck around if they didn't have affection for the character.
[QUOTE=The Kid;5870561]Meh I'm glad Waid can do what he wants on his own terms. Maybe it's because I'm so burned on the overall DC Universe compared to Marvel, but I tend to prefer out of continuity or less shared universe focused series now[/QUOTE]
Same.
The Wonder Woman corner largely doing its own thing is why it's the only corner I'm interested in now. Even though I really like what PKJ is doing with Action, it's more in spite of everything else going on with the IP, not because of it.
