A simple question and yeoin my opinion it’s similar to Marvel and how they took Spider-Man and OMD. Yet as fans of the Flash and his extended family: What do you think of it and why ?
A simple question and yeoin my opinion it’s similar to Marvel and how they took Spider-Man and OMD. Yet as fans of the Flash and his extended family: What do you think of it and why ?
I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.
As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.
If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
[QUOTE=Chubistian;4782234]I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.
As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.
If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story[/QUOTE]
Wally was top 3 among dc character in cbr polls before Flashpoint. Now he is 8.he fell and hard. Suffice to say new52, Flashpoint and even rebirth have all been disastrous for the character.
I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.
At one point we had Wally, Bart, Jay, Max, and Jesse, with regular guest appearances by other Flash dynasty members like XS and John Fox, and we had the West twins too, towards the end. That was a big family of heroes, each with their own distinct skills and talents and personalities. But once Barry returned, everyone faded into the background. I mean, once when the Flash would meet a Flash from the future, it was a descendant or someone; somebody new. When Barry post-return would meet a Flash from the future....it was just him.
To a point, I get that. DC wanted to establish that Barry was back on top and didn't want the other guys challenging his popularity (and Wally and the others were very popular). So putting everyone else on time out and giving Barry the focus for a while, yeah that's okay, I get it.
Then Flashpoint hit, and more importantly the reboot DC piggybacked off it, and the family either no longer existed or had no connections to the Flash, Allen or West families at all. It was a huge demotion for the entire franchise, I think.
As for Barry, the dead mom thing sucks. It changes his motivations into something we've seen a million times, it's trite, it's base, and it's selfish. But I don't think it's done serious damage to the character, it's just made his origin a little bland.
Flashpoint itself, in a vacuum, is a pretty fun story. Zoom breaks time, Barry tries to fix it but messes it up, and then has to fix his mistake on top of dealing with Zoom. Fun idea, fun story, and it's always cool to see alternate takes on familiar faces. And Barry isn't even really to blame for the New52 either, that was Pandora. So Flashpoint itself isn't so bad (and I love their version of Cyborg) but that whole era from Barry's rebirth to Flashpoint just set the entire franchise on a downward decline.
[quote]I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.
[/quote]
Yes I agree. Also not the Barry character himself, but the way DC handled his return (compared to Hal's return).
I voted yes, but the real blame falls not on Flashpoint, but Flash: Rebirth.
And it's not even Barry's return that is the problem, is how they chose to run with it.
I don't think there will be a healthy Flash Family until every single piece of mythology and/or concepts introduced durting that series is addressed, retconned out, erased and openly mocked [B]on the page[/B]. Ignoring it is not enough.
Barry’s initial return didn’t ruin the Flash Family as everybody was still around with their histories intact. Flash: Rebirth also brought Max back from the dead and made Jess Jessie Quick again which was good.
I did vote yes but people need to understand that it was stuff behind the scenes that ruined the Flash Family and Flashpoint.
Originally Flashpoint’s ending wasn’t supposed to change anything. What happened was a former executive at WB decided that Vertigo, DC and Wildstorm were needlessly costing WB money that WB could use elsewhere, so he ordered that all three publishing houses be consolidated into only one/DC.
So Johns was forced to change the ending of Flashpoint and come up with a way to merge the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters together with the DC characters and make things easier for those characters to shine by getting rid of the popular Golden Age characters. That’s when he came up with Pandora and had her merge all 3 universes universes together while Barry was running back to the present.
That’s why Didio and Lee were demoted to co publishers (when they used to be the heads of DC and Wildstorm) and Diane Nelson was put in charge of everything.
Diane Nelson then thought it was better to start everything over and Reboot than to try to fit in the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into DC’s then current continuity (like Johns tried to do in Brightest Day) so they came up with The New52.
So, in stony Flashpoint’s ending ruined the Flash Family but it was really what was going on behind the scenes that screwed them over.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782603]Barry’s initial return didn’t ruin the Flash Family as everybody was still around with their histories intact. [/QUOTE]
Not really, no.
The speed force retcon made everyone dependant on Barry, with the added crap bonus of including Barry as the origin of Jay's powers and effectively undoing every milestone of Wally's career speed-wise. Max was never seen again. The only story where Wally appeared and was not playing second fiddle to Barry was an issue of Magog. These characters never again interacted with each other with the one exception being everyone waking up in the middle of the night because Speed-Force engine, creator and God almighty had a bad dream. Wally was down right mandated out of all books. We never seen Impulse Iris in anything. Jesse's costume was crap.
Flash Rebirth ruined them all, Barry included IMHO. Flashpoint just discarded them, but the damage was already done.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782603]That’s why Didio and Lee were demoted to co publishers (when they used to be the heads of DC and Wildstorm) and Diane Nelson was put in charge of everything.
Diane Nelson then thought it was better to start everything over and Reboot than to try to fit in the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into DC’s then current continuity (like Johns tried to do in Brightest Day) so they came up with The New52.[/QUOTE]
This is incorrect, I don't know why people repeat it so much.
Neither Didio nor Lee were demoted. Didio got the job of publisher taht was previously Levitz's, which has his boss. He was [B]promoted[/B]. Lee had sold Wildstorm a long time ago and already had that money, then he gained the highest executive position possible at DC comics itself.
Diane Nelson was in to oversee DC as it connected to WB, in the hopes of making it more like an ip-farm. Her position was new and connective to the mother-company.
[QUOTE=Chubistian;4782234]I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.
As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.
If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story[/QUOTE]Yeah, seems like the family may end up back as it was before Flashpoint soon, except with the addition of Avery Ho and the black Wallace West. Flash Forward brings back the kids, and then some partial Doomsday Clock synergisation happens, releasing everybody who's still trapped in the Speed Force (if they need anchors, like how Barry brought Wally back but couldn't do the same for Jay, then Impulse would be Max Mercury's anchor, and he in turn is Jay Garrick's. Jay then serves as Jessie Quick's. Bart apparently didn't need one).
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4782618]Not really, no.
The speed force retcon made everyone dependant on Barry, with the added crap bonus of including Barry as the origin of Jay's powers and effectively undoing every milestone of Wally's career speed-wise. Max was never seen again. The only story where Wally appeared and was not playing second fiddle to Barry was an issue of Magog. These characters never again interacted with each other with the one exception being everyone waking up in the middle of the night because Speed-Force engine, creator and God almighty had a bad dream. Wally was down right mandated out of all books. We never seen Impulse Iris in anything. Jesse's costume was crap.
Flash Rebirth ruined them all, Barry included IMHO. Flashpoint just discarded them, but the damage was already done.[/QUOTE] I get that you’re one of those Wally fans that is upset with Barry’s return. But a lot of your complaints are over exaggerations to me personally. Barry just returned so they put all of their focus on Barry because they were building up to Flashpoint with the original plan to put more focus on the rest of the Family afterwards. Also, Barry becoming the Speed Force was not even Johns’ idea. It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.
Anyway, let’s agree to disagree so we don’t derail this thread any further.
[QUOTE=Chubistian;4782234]I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.
As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.
If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story[/QUOTE]
Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.
Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)
Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.
From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.
Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.
*Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782692]It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.[/QUOTE]
That may be where Johns got the inspiration from, but that was a very different animal than Barry creating the entire speed force. In that original story Barry becomes the source of his own powers, and the same happens to Wally later on if I recall correctly (leading into the Walter West arc maybe?). But there's miles and miles and miles between that and saying Barry somehow, for no real reason, created a fundamental universal force that transcends all of time, space, and other-dimensional realms.
Most of the Flash family have already returned. It's even been expanded with new speedsters.
Relax: we cant derail a thread about the Flash family derailment talking about Flash family derailment.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782692]I get that you’re one of those Wally fans that is upset with Barry’s return.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly, no. It's about the execution, really.
[QUOTE] But a lot of your complaints are over exaggerations to me personally. Barry just returned so they put all of their focus on Barry because they were building up to Flashpoint with the original plan to put more focus on the rest of the Family afterwards.[/QUOTE]
While we'll never know how true this was (and have serious doubts that it was true at some point. It may have been a point of the now infamous Johns-Didio headbutt contest, sure, but considering Rebirth's content, I doubt it).
[QUOTE] Also, Barry becoming the Speed Force was not even Johns’ idea. It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.[/QUOTE]
Well, it was completely his idea. The Flash: Rebirth pitch signed by him and Van Sciver specifically mentions that Barry being the speed force is designed so he is more important to the Flash legacy as Wally or Bart could ever be.(Yes, really). That said, his idea or not, it was a thing that happened and helped kill the Flash Family as a concept. Further, a really big logic leap is necessary top read that Loren Fleming issue and deduce "ok, Barry is the speed force". Like, really big.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4782751]That may be where Johns got the inspiration from, but that was a very different animal than Barry creating the entire speed force. In that original story Barry becomes the source of his own powers, and the same happens to Wally later on if I recall correctly (leading into the Walter West arc maybe?). But there's miles and miles and miles between that and saying Barry somehow, for no real reason, created a fundamental universal force that transcends all of time, space, and other-dimensional realms.[/QUOTE]They never said he created it. They said he became it after his death. His particles were spread throughout time and space after being hit by the Anti Monitor’s death ray.
Anyhow, I never liked the Speed Force as a concept in the first place. I much preferred the metagene instead.
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4782618]Not really, no.
The speed force retcon made everyone dependant on Barry, with the added crap bonus of including Barry as the origin of Jay's powers and effectively undoing every milestone of Wally's career speed-wise. Max was never seen again. The only story where Wally appeared and was not playing second fiddle to Barry was an issue of Magog. These characters never again interacted with each other with the one exception being everyone waking up in the middle of the night because Speed-Force engine, creator and God almighty had a bad dream. Wally was down right mandated out of all books. We never seen Impulse Iris in anything. Jesse's costume was crap.
Flash Rebirth ruined them all, Barry included IMHO. Flashpoint just discarded them, but the damage was already done.
This is incorrect, I don't know why people repeat it so much.
Neither Didio nor Lee were demoted. Didio got the job of publisher taht was previously Levitz's, which has his boss. He was [B]promoted[/B]. Lee had sold Wildstorm a long time ago and already had that money, then he gained the highest executive position possible at DC comics itself.
Diane Nelson was in to oversee DC as it connected to WB, in the hopes of making it more like an ip-farm. Her position was new and connective to the mother-company.[/QUOTE]
Okay. Understood. But she was still became their boss and they took their orders from her just like she was taking orders from the former WB executive that forced Vertigo, Wildstorm and DC to be consolidated into only one imprint.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782877]Okay. Understood. But she was still became their boss and they took their orders from her just like she was taking orders from the former WB executive that forced Vertigo, Wildstorm and DC to be consolidated into only one imprint.[/QUOTE]
Ok, this is a real derailment, but just to clear things up:
Yes, Diane was brought in as Didio and Lee's boss (In fact, technically, it was her that promoted them both, even though truth is obviously more complicated). That is correct. However, this was almost 2 years before the New52. Neither Nelson's nor Jeff Robinov's (who she reported to at the time) position probably had anything to do with Vertigo or WildStorm. Whatever the deal with WS was, Jim Lee was probably in on the decision. As for Vertigo, Dan Didio had been fighting with Karen Berger for control of those properties for years before this whole shebang. It's said - but not confirmed - that Levitz shielded Karen from a lot of corporate ****. Which checks out, because once Levitz fell, Berger fell too.
So neither Vertigo nor WS mergers with DC seem to be forced top to bottom.
As ofor the Flash, which is the theme of the thread, yes, it's quite possible that the "streamlining" come from up-top, eager to make a movie without having to explain anyone else, etc, or it may have come from Johns himself, who was then CCOP and had as part of his job to "sell" these characters to the execs as viable cross-media properties. Regardless of the motive or of who's to blame, though, Flash: Rebirth is indeed the moment where everyone else goes to ****.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782717]Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.
Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)
Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.
From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.
Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.
*Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.[/QUOTE]
I still think of it as a retcon, but we agree that it was genius in its use of previous continuity and one of the greatest things that have happened to the GL franchise
[QUOTE=Cmbmool;4782217]A simple question and yeoin my opinion it’s similar to Marvel and how they took Spider-Man and OMD. Yet as fans of the Flash and his extended family: What do you think of it and why ?[/QUOTE]
I mean, I voted yes, because besides Barry, they did all get expunged from canon via Flashpoint. But that was a long time ago. The Flash 'family' now is very different now with different successes and problems that it did in 2011. A lot of those characters that went away with Flashpoint are back, some aren't, there are some new ones. There's a tv show and a movie coming out. Flashpoint probably wasn't entirely worth it per se, in hindsight (maybe it was saleswise?), but it was a decent story on it's own merits.
As far as the actual Flash family goes, I don't envy writers. There are a lot of good characters in there, but writing stories with up to like 7 of them has got to be a task. I was glad when Wally came back. I do like him more than Barry, and I like Barry! But I can see why they went back to basics with the reboot.
Going back to basics was absolutely the right decision in the context of a reboot.
The problem was that they didn't go back to basics with Batman, Green Lantern or Teen Titans. It made for a very lopsided DC Universe, with little forethought put into it. For all the reboots DC has had, they've never had the confidence or commitment to wipe the whole slate clean.
I clicked yes, but the issue began with Barry's return.
There was a very sizable shift in focus from the 'Flash Family' to 'Barry Allen - one and only'.
It started gradually, but once Flashpoint rolled around, it was all over red rover for the Flash Family.
And the book has been mired in mediocrity ever since.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4782289]I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.
At one point we had Wally, Bart, Jay, Max, and Jesse, with regular guest appearances by other Flash dynasty members like XS and John Fox, and we had the West twins too, towards the end. That was a big family of heroes, each with their own distinct skills and talents and personalities. But once Barry returned, everyone faded into the background. I mean, once when the Flash would meet a Flash from the future, it was a descendant or someone; somebody new. When Barry post-return would meet a Flash from the future....it was just him.
To a point, I get that. DC wanted to establish that Barry was back on top and didn't want the other guys challenging his popularity (and Wally and the others were very popular). So putting everyone else on time out and giving Barry the focus for a while, yeah that's okay, I get it.
Then Flashpoint hit, and more importantly the reboot DC piggybacked off it, and the family either no longer existed or had no connections to the Flash, Allen or West families at all. It was a huge demotion for the entire franchise, I think.
As for Barry, the dead mom thing sucks. It changes his motivations into something we've seen a million times, it's trite, it's base, and it's selfish. But I don't think it's done serious damage to the character, it's just made his origin a little bland.
Flashpoint itself, in a vacuum, is a pretty fun story. Zoom breaks time, Barry tries to fix it but messes it up, and then has to fix his mistake on top of dealing with Zoom. Fun idea, fun story, and it's always cool to see alternate takes on familiar faces. And Barry isn't even really to blame for the New52 either, that was Pandora. So Flashpoint itself isn't so bad (and I love their version of Cyborg) but that whole era from Barry's rebirth to Flashpoint just set the entire franchise on a downward decline.[/QUOTE]
[B]ALL OF THIS.[/B]
I will add that the dead mom thing actually ruins Barry's death in CoIE for me; it was the one person who, above all else, had no real reason to be there. He had a happy life, grew up reading comics, was even-tempered and overall just wanted to do the right thing. He was you, dear reader. And for all the destroyed planets, murdered parents and so forth, it was the everyman who took one for the team. Pretty powerful stuff. But hey, why be unique when you can join most the JLA in the Orphans club.
If the Flash family was ever ruined, I think it was during Flash: Rebirth, when Barry came back. But I don't know that it was even ruined at all, even now. Sure, it's not in a great place, but that's the thing about comics. Even when things get really obnoxious and just nothing like what you want, the things you like are still not really [I]gone.[/I] They're just sadly not on the shelves right now.
In the run prior to Final Crisis Barry was dead, Bart was dead, Max Mercury was gone and Jesse was Liberty Belle (no longer appearing in The Flash). The online fandom was very vocal about how much they hated Wally's kids and wanted the book to be about him, not his family.
[QUOTE=Lee;4784412]In the run prior to Final Crisis Barry was dead, Bart was dead, Max Mercury was gone and Jesse was Liberty Belle (no longer appearing in The Flash). The online fandom was very vocal about how much they hated Wally's kids and wanted the book to be about him, not his family.[/QUOTE]
All of this is true.
And a case can be made that the family started to be dismantled by the end of the first Johns run. Interviews from circa 2005/06 had Didio stating many times that after Final Crisis "there would be only one Flash" (I guess this was when he still thought he'd bring Barry back right away), and a policy of "non-redundancy" was being applied across the line: Nightwing was also to be killed, the excuse they given top the creative team for cancelling Cass Batgirl book was to avoid redundancy with the then imminent Batwoman book (heh) and so on.
However, most everything done during that period of time was easily fixable: Bart coming back, maybe Max, Jesse regaining her powers, could all be handwaved (and it actually was, later on Flash: Rebirth). Those characters were in limbo, sure, and they were there already by mandate, but all you had to do was lift said mandates and everything could be fine and dandy.
Flash Rebirth, OTOH, created a status quo that had all these characters existing, but smaller and less important than they ever were. And it also mandated some of them to oblivion again, or at least, out of Barry's way.
I think Flashpoint ruined a whole lot more than just the Flash family. They'll be dealing with the damage done by that for many years IMO.
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4784456]All of this is true.
And a case can be made that the family started to be dismantled by the end of the first Johns run. Interviews from circa 2005/06 had Didio stating many times that after Final Crisis "there would be only one Flash" (I guess this was when he still thought he'd bring Barry back right away), and a policy of "non-redundancy" was being applied across the line: Nightwing was also to be killed, the excuse they given top the creative team for cancelling Cass Batgirl book was to avoid redundancy with the then imminent Batwoman book (heh) and so on.
However, most everything done during that period of time was easily fixable: Bart coming back, maybe Max, Jesse regaining her powers, could all be handwaved (and it actually was, later on Flash: Rebirth). Those characters were in limbo, sure, and they were there already by mandate, but all you had to do was lift said mandates and everything could be fine and dandy.
Flash Rebirth, OTOH, created a status quo that had all these characters existing, but smaller and less important than they ever were. And it also mandated some of them to oblivion again, or at least, out of Barry's way.[/QUOTE]
Wally was sidelined, but Jay, Bart and Jesse were as active as they were before Infinite Crisis.
Flash: Rebirth was, and still is, the biggest Flash Family story Geoff Johns has ever written. Biggest multi-speedster team-up since Chain Lightning.
[QUOTE=Lee;4784548]Wally was sidelined, but Jay, Bart and Jesse were as active as they were before Infinite Crisis.[/QUOTE]
With absolutely no interaction among themselves, aside from Blackest Night, a Bart focused issue on Road to Flashpoint and that horrible, horrible intervention issue. Further, beside Wally being sideline, we've never saw either Iris Impulse or Max again doing anything, really.
[QUOTE]Flash: Rebirth was, and still is, the biggest Flash Family story Geoff Johns has ever written. Biggest multi-speedster team-up since Chain Lightning.[/QUOTE]
Which is exactly the problem being discussed here, no?
Eh 5G wil have Wally disappearance shorter in history. And his own history restored maybe.
[QUOTE=docmidnite;4782717]Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.
Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)
Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.
From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.
Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.
*Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.[/QUOTE]
Agree with all of this.
Barry's return ruined the Flash family for me. But Flashpoint didn't help either.
Flashpoint and the return of Barry Allen in general made a simple thing more complicated. Unlike Hal Jordan, who had a death and replacement that was controversial, their really wasn’t much of a call to bring Barry Allen back for much of the 90’s. In fact the Flash franchise actually grew and matured with Wally in ways that it never did under Barry. That’s why their seems to be way more disjointed unease with Barry then with Hal. Their is a slight undercurrent of “was all this necessary?” With the Flash that doesn’t exist with the Green Lantern Franchise.
Another reason why one revamp seems better then the other. The Kyle Rayner revamp shrunk the Green Lantern franchise. Killed off several main characters, and essentially turned DC’s most prominent cosmic character into a street level superhero. The Flash revamp on the other hand actually expanded the franchise. Key elements like the speed force were added, and the Rogue’s were further developed.
[QUOTE=mathew101281;4784706]Flashpoint and the return of Barry Allen in general made a simple thing more complicated. Unlike Hal Jordan, who had a death and replacement that was controversial, their really wasn’t much of a call to bring Barry Allen back for much of the 90’s. In fact the Flash franchise actually grew and matured with Wally in ways that it never did under Barry. That’s why their seems to be way more disjointed unease with Barry then with Hal. Their is a slight undercurrent of “was all this necessary?” With the Flash that doesn’t exist with the Green Lantern Franchise.
Another reason why one revamp seems better then the other. The Kyle Rayner revamp shrunk the Green Lantern franchise. Killed off several main characters, and essentially turned DC’s most prominent cosmic character into a street level superhero. The Flash revamp on the other hand actually expanded the franchise. Key elements like the speed force were added, and the Rogue’s were further developed.[/QUOTE]
Those are good points. I don't like Hal Jordan, but the core concept of what "Green Lantern" was was sort of broken until his return. You didn't have to bring him back to fix it, but doping so sure made more eyes turn that that way.
With the Flash, the concept of the franchise was not only alive and well but had been expanded: by feeling that they needed to somehow justify Barry's return, they sort of broke it.
[QUOTE=Lee;4784412]In the run prior to Final Crisis Barry was dead, Bart was dead, Max Mercury was gone and Jesse was Liberty Belle (no longer appearing in The Flash). The online fandom was very vocal about how much they hated Wally's kids and wanted the book to be about him, not his family.[/QUOTE]
The title leading up to Barry's return was indeed less than good. Gods, remember how underwhelming Waid's "triumphant" return ended up being? Gha, such a let down. But that was just a bad run. It happens to everyone, you just put new talent on the books and quality increases again. Not a hurdle.
Barry's return just threw a wrench into everything. And yeah, Bart and Jay were still around, but they no longer mattered and weren't used beyond a token appearance or so. Half the fun of Barry coming back was the idea of him getting to know people again and adjusting to the changes in the world since his death. And Rebirth did toy with that concept, we had a really solid conversation with Hal at the Flash museum, etc. But all the potential of Barry's return got thrown out the window so the story could focus on Barry exclusively. Somehow the whole thing just missed the forest for the trees.
And that too was just a bad run. It could've been fixed as easily as Wally's last uninspired run could've been. But the reboot hit and "replace the writer" was no longer a viable, simple solution.
[QUOTE=Robanker;4783487][B]ALL OF THIS.[/B]
I will add that the dead mom thing actually ruins Barry's death in CoIE for me; it was the one person who, above all else, had no real reason to be there. He had a happy life, grew up reading comics, was even-tempered and overall just wanted to do the right thing. He was you, dear reader. And for all the destroyed planets, murdered parents and so forth, it was the everyman who took one for the team. Pretty powerful stuff. But hey, why be unique when you can join most the JLA in the Orphans club.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, all true. I think Barry lost a lot with that origin overhaul, but I don't think it completely ruined him or anything; it just made him less unique. Which is a funny thing to say about the guy who is supposed to be the Everyman of the League. :D
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4784591]With absolutely no interaction among themselves, aside from Blackest Night, a Bart focused issue on Road to Flashpoint and that horrible, horrible intervention issue. Further, beside Wally being sideline, we've never saw either Iris Impulse or Max again doing anything, really.[/quote]
They only had 12 issues with that status quo before the reboot. But there was Flash Family presence in Rebirth, Blackest Night, Secret Files, Road to Flashpoint and Kid Flash Lost. Plus Jay, Bart and Jesse as regulars in team books.
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4784591]Which is exactly the problem being discussed here, no?[/QUOTE]
Not when people are saying Flash: Rebirth, one of the biggest Flash Family stories ever, ruined the Flash Family. In quick succession we had the return of Barry, the return of Bart, the return of Max Mercury, the return of Jesse Quick, Irey West becoming a speedster. Flash: Rebirth re-established the Flash Family. They just didn't get a chance to do much with it, because there were only 12 regular issues before the whole DC Universe got rebooted.
But for that brief period of time there was more of a Flash Family than there was during Bart's run and Wally's second run.
[QUOTE=Lee;4784950]They only had 12 issues with that status quo before the reboot. But there was Flash Family presence in Rebirth, Blackest Night, Secret Files, Road to Flashpoint and Kid Flash Lost. Plus Jay, Bart and Jesse as regulars in team books.[/QUOTE]
And there goes problem number 1. Original plan (and promise) as for Bart to have a book and Wally to have back-ups and or story from issue 1. And for these characters to interact. That never happened, and the reason they only had 12 issues to deal with it is that they cancelled the other stuff that would deal with it.
[QUOTE]Not when people are saying Flash: Rebirth, one of the biggest Flash Family stories ever, ruined the Flash Family.[/QUOTE]
It did. It doesn't matter how "big" it was, since it was crap. It established Wally as a wannabe and a has-been at the same time (!!!!), his kids as toddlers, made Jay Muthafucking Garrick a Barry derivative and Bart a whiney kid. Doesn't matter that everyone was "there", because everyone was being shat on. And all the post-Crisis has to show for it is 12 issues of Barry Allen being sad (with some beautiful Manapul art, at least)
The stuff that was established in Flash: Rebirth made damn well sure that there was a cap on how much any one character was allowed to shine, and they made sure that that cap was really, really low.
[QUOTE]In quick succession we had the return of Barry[/QUOTE]
"My Mommy is dead"
[QUOTE] the return of Bart [/QUOTE]
"I lost my personality, but here, listen to some sentences taken directly out of the internet"
[QUOTE]the return of Max Mercury[/QUOTE]
"Listen son, here's some exposition about why Barry Allen is the greatest, has always been the greatest, will always be the greatest, and some shenningan mechanics why he can't be surpassed, and never will be, or has been! Got that? Good, you will never see me again!"
[QUOTE] the return of Jesse Quick[/QUOTE]
That was indeed nice. I wish her fashion sense had returned as well...
[QUOTE] Irey West becoming a speedster.[/QUOTE]
And here's a list of her top ten incredible adventures:
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
[QUOTE] Rebirth re-established the Flash Family.[/QUOTE]
As inferior versions, empowered by "Barry Allen's sense of justice", never to reunite or, in some cases, show their faces again before being erased. And if they somehow managed to re-appear, they sure as hell wouldn't be at their peak, because we would never forget that they derive from the engine, creator and speed-Force himself man.
Yeah, to me that pretty much says "ruined".
[QUOTE] They just didn't get a chance to do much with it, because there were only 12 regular issues before the whole DC Universe got rebooted.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, they [B]had[/B] the chance. They had a promised back-up feature and a promised book and a second promised book that never materialized and a handful of line-wide events where not only all these characters should have appeared and interacted, but it would made sense for them to do so. They decided not to take that chance, and they decided to actively work toward that never happening, and we all know why.
[QUOTE]But for that brief period of time there was more of a Flash Family than there was during Bart's run and Wally's second run.[/QUOTE]
Hardly. I've seen Jay, Joan and Iris having active roles in Bart's life in his title. I've seen Wally interacting with both his kids and Bart, and Barry remarring Iris and Jay discovering **** in the past and running alongside Wally in the present in Wally's second run. Not to mention, there are a total of 3 more issues of Iris being a speedster [B]before[/B] she became Impulse than after it. The post-Rebirth Flash book, OTOH, we only have these characters reunite to point fingers at Barry and ask why the hell is it that he sucks so much now (issue 11).
So yeah, Flash: Rebirth ruined the Flash Family. It basically went "Here, everyone is back, but everyone sucks now", created a status quo that reaffirmed that as strongly as possible, and it's fallout eventually led all the characters to non-existence or irrelevance.
The Flash family was ruined by Didio stepping into power. It happened when he moved Johns off The Flash and started screwing with the title in 2005, after he came into his position in 2004. Everything from that point on has his fingerprints on it. The title was at one of its heights before being put on hold 3 issues after Johns' run was ended, then thrown into nonsense with Infinite Crisis for no reason, then dicked around with for years ongoing until, gasp, we need to make a big move to save the failing Flash franchise! Better bring back Barry!
Long form sabotage by a man who barely understood anything that made The Flash good. I doubt it was even intentional at first, he probably just believed that the name "The Flash" would always sell and he could flavor it with his personal ideas. Like bringing in the 90s TV show writers for no good reason.
Rebirth's sins are apparent. It brings back Max, but concludes his entire character premise on a wet fart. It brings back Jesse but she does nothing in the comic and after the comic. It makes Iris Impulse but she does nothing in and after the comic. It makes Jay derivative of Barry, which is preposterous. And it very, very obviously sidelines Wally for Barry -- this was obvious and intentional even if the rest might not quite have been, though transparent to most reading it.
[QUOTE=Dred;4785051]The Flash family was ruined by Didio stepping into power. It happened when he moved Johns off The Flash and started screwing with the title in 2005, after he came into his position in 2004. Everything from that point on has his fingerprints on it. The title was at one of its heights before being put on hold 3 issues after Johns' run was ended, then thrown into nonsense with Infinite Crisis for no reason, then dicked around with for years ongoing until, gasp, we need to make a big move to save the failing Flash franchise! Better bring back Barry!
Long form sabotage by a man who barely understood anything that made The Flash good. I doubt it was even intentional at first, he probably just believed that the name "The Flash" would always sell and he could flavor it with his personal ideas. Like bringing in the 90s TV show writers for no good reason.
Rebirth's sins are apparent. It brings back Max, but concludes his entire character premise on a wet fart. It brings back Jesse but she does nothing in the comic and after the comic. It makes Iris Impulse but she does nothing in and after the comic. It makes Jay derivative of Barry, which is preposterous. And it very, very obviously sidelines Wally for Barry -- this was obvious and intentional even if the rest might not quite have been, though transparent to most reading it.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree.
But going by the premise of the thread, don't you think that the Flash Family was easily fixable before Rebirth and, after it, not so much? Because that's pretty much my point. Te speed force retcon alone fucks everything.
I think there's a lot of hyperbole here.
I think there's also a big difference between "Flash: Rebirth [I]ruined[/I] X" and "X was underutilised after Flash: Rebirth, due to a linewide continuity reboot after 12 regular issues".
[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4785023]Hardly. I've seen Jay, Joan and Iris having active roles in Bart's life in his title. I've seen Wally interacting with both his kids and Bart, and Barry remarring Iris and Jay discovering **** in the past and running alongside Wally in the present in Wally's second run. Not to mention, there are a total of 3 more issues of Iris being a speedster [B]before[/B] she became Impulse than after it.[/QUOTE]
How are we defining Flash Family here?
If we're including Joan Garrick and Iris, then that changes the discussion. It's still a hell of a stretch to suggest that [I]The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive[/I] had more Flash Family content than [I]Flash: Rebirth[/I].
What is the Flash Family? When did it begin? Has it always been good? Has it ever had ups and downs?
[QUOTE=Lee;4785130]I think there's a lot of hyperbole here.
I think there's also a big difference between "Flash: Rebirth [I]ruined[/I] X" and "X was underutilised after Flash: Rebirth, due to a linewide continuity reboot after 12 regular issues".[/QUOTE]
Not for me, there isn't. If anything, I'm holding back: I believe that status quo set by Flash Rebirth, particularly but not solely because of the speed force retcon, ruins these characters beyond repair, and they are only fixable by it and other crappy elements to the mythology being clearly and on page negated, retconned out, spat on, exorcized with holy water, then fire, then holy water again, followed by all the characters thinking at least once per issue "how could we believe such nonsense?" for the next 25 years.
[QUOTE]How are we defining Flash Family here?
If we're including Joan Garrick and Iris, then that changes the discussion. It's still a hell of a stretch to suggest that [I]The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive[/I] had more Flash Family content than [I]Flash: Rebirth[/I].
What is the Flash Family? When did it begin? Has it always been good? Has it ever had ups and downs?[/QUOTE]
Granted, I tend to include the "Flash Wives club". (It's a thing. It exists. It's right there on Final Crisis, the one comic where Barry return and it was good). But I can completely understand if that is pushing too far for some.
However, for a the Flash Family to be the Flash Family I'd say that there should be a comunal sense among these characters, that goes from having the odd adventure to actually having some sort of relationship. This was excised from the franchise right after Flash: Rebirth and only made a timid Return post-DCU Rebirth.
As for when it started? I'd say ROBA. has it always been good? Pre-Didio, mostly, then he started dismantling it.
But you seem to confuse the fact that the characters exist during Flash-Rebirth as a "good thing". I don't, because I truly and totally believe they were better of dead than being part of that ****-show. It's bad story, filled with terrible concepts that make every single character in it (yes, Barry included) leave in much, much worst shape then when they arrived.
[QUOTE=Lee;4784412]
However, for a the Flash Family to be the Flash Family I'd say that there should be a comunal sense among these characters, that goes from having the odd adventure to actually having some sort of relationship. This was excised from the franchise right after Flash: Rebirth and only made a timid Return post-DCU Rebirth.[/QUOTE]
That's one of the big sticking points for me. It's not enough to just have a bunch of legacy speedsters out there in the DCU, each doing their own thing. That's not a family. That's how the Super kids usually act, but the Flash family actually hung out with each other on a regular basis. And not just during Crisis events, but out of costume, in the Flash title. They'd have dinner. No world ending threat, just Joan's meatloaf.
It's not enough to have Bart in Titans or YJ, Jesse or Jay in JSA, and everyone else in other books or limbo. They have to actually interact with each other, be each other's supporting cast, etc. I totally understand the need to put Barry first when he came back. I get that. But all the plans they had for other Flash books never happened, what we actually got on the page was largely worthless unless you just wanted to see Barry built up, and the reboot is a piss poor excuse. This is fiction; there are no limits, they had a five year timeline, and if all the Bat kids could not only still exist in the New52 but hang out in the cave together, then all the Flashes could too (even Jay, had DC decided to allow him some earth jumping).
Edit: The post I quoted was by Drinker, not Lee. Not sure how that happened.