Harley Quinn gets to be a villain and a hero: Fair or Foul

[QUOTE=Agent Z;4817304]I mean, if you can claim that about them while having read their books who is to say the people who dislike Harley for the reasons they've given aren't also reading her books?[/QUOTE]
I never wrote anything about disliking Harley, I merely stated that poster who said she revels in killing clearly hasn’t read her book, since that is clearly false. You seem to be making an entirely new statement which is not relevant to the post you quoted initially.

I mean despite me making the statements about superman and wonder woman I still enjoy reading Superman and I like both characters.

I think that's true to a degree though a more accurate read would be to say she is a sociopath who does not fully grasp the death and violence she causes by her actions.
That is true
Harley views the world akin to a looney tunes cartoon. If you read her solo or hell even watch her animated series its easy to grasp how everything is less serious to he. There's even an episode showing how she doesn't see herself as "bad"
Of course that's the role mental illness plays in people taking her crimes less seriously or not viewing her so badly.

[QUOTE=lucius121;4817121]This is the problem people who don’t even read the character and then make generalisations, its like me not reading Superman and judging him solely on his appearance in cross overs.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I did read the Harley Quinn series. For awhile. But got tired of it because she was treated as a hero after going on various killing sprees.

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4817587]Actually, I did read the Harley Quinn series. For awhile. But got tired of it because she was treated as a hero after going on various killing sprees.[/QUOTE]
In continuity there is one really evil killing spree which Harley was responsible for, it was actually really twisted, but I see a lot of people are far more willing to forgive others than they are Harley who actually went to prison for her crimes. I don't know what other sprees she is responsible for please enlighten me. If you read Harley solo then you must know that Harley isn't really a hero in that book, the book is about her quest for redemption for her past. Please also show me the delight in killing you said she has. I don't need an issue or anything just a story which shows it.

Those who actually read Harley's solo would know that Harley does kill people, she has been shown doing so in her book on a few occasions, but Harley isn't really a hero at best she is an anti-hero.

[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4816641]I remember someone at comic con telling jim lee or didio a lot of kids liked Harley and that DC was doing her a disservice as presenting her so overtly villainous. Someone even complained to Lauren Faust about why Harley Quinn was a villain on DC super hero girls
So I know where the root of all this is born from imo

My only issue is that if DC would just commit to presenting Harley as a straight anti hero who wasn't suddenly besties with every female hero and considered harmless then you could do everything similar to how Marvel is using the Punisher or Deadpool.[/QUOTE]

The thing is that a lot of those kids got to know her in those shows aimed at kids where she's naughty not one of the heroes so. i don't follow the show but it's a kids show so it's not going to be any worse than other popular antagonists in kids shows. They could have the character evolve gradually in those shows but that might alienate the fans who like her just as she is. Harley isn't the 1st well loved baddie in kids shows and she won't be last however with Harley as those kids mature the have the option of seeing her change [in some stories].

I don't view it as a disservice. They already know and accept that she's a bad guy so her being overtly villainous is kinda what they're expecting when they're old enough to access the more mature stuff.

The mixed reaction to live action Maleficent comes to mind as both an argument for it not being a disservice and the drawbacks of going from one extreme to another.


Some hugely popular characters suffer from inconsistent characterisations across various mediums targeted at different demo graphics. Granted not many vary to the degree of killer to hero and more with each archtype having a sizeable profitable following.

DC is playing it safe and trying to make as much money as they can. I can't really fault them.
I mean it seems to me like overnight she suddenly became so many things. A symbol of empowerment, a character that's beloved by little girls, a role model for wanna be bad girls, an abuse victim who broke out free, a gay icon etc

Maybe harley's sudden explosion across demographics with very diverse needs blindsided even WB/DC which is why we have what we have now. Different versions rushed out to meet demand without proper setup and then scrambling to put out titles that set up and show her journey.

It seems to me that recently we've had stories/material developing her and moving her away from villain. Dceased isn't in continuity but her arc was positive,heroic and emotional. Stuff like that still adds a lot to changing perception and eventually making Harley at the Hall of Justice less jarring.

If DC can have it both ways they just need to find a workable balance and more arcs that muddy the waters just enough to a point where fans can see their HC in actual canon representation of many conflicting harleys.

English isn't my 1st language so not such if I'm getting my point across correctly.

For example
Batman is a loving father/hero who chose to have the most padded part of his chest highlighted in Yellow to draw bullets . He also dresses minors in his care in bright colours and lets them fight crime. Despite losing 3 he still recruits minors not grown ups or supers.

Batman has a no kill rule yet he is cool with an agreement that allows one of the few bat family ally who wears his logo to kill so long as he keeps it out of Gotham.

He is a hero no questions but he's methods and actions many times cross into anti-hero/anti villain territory

As a grieving father he took in another person's kid and put him in the same role that lead to his son's death. Without the parents consent or knowledge.

etc yet fans are able to see him and make valid arguments for their preferred version backed by canon because over time DC has perfected what they are attempting [and rushing with Harley]

I don't have a problem with multi Harley and over time less people won't. From sidekick to a 4th pillar and sh's only been around like 26 years. dC is very invested in building her to a point where eventually it will be fair. Like Batman fair i mean.

Ihope my post makes sense and it's a long ramble.

Sorry about the lengthy post

If Lobo can, who cares.

I do not enjoy DC taking Harley Quinn and making her more Deadpool like in terms of how she is currently viewed in comics and in film. I know there’s differences between the two characters, but still having Harley commits murderous actions and smiling about it doesn’t help her case either.
Plus having her bend reality on her whim and breaking the fourth wall is a bit annoying even more so than Deadpool.

Basically Harley Quinn isn’t Deadpool and I do not enjoy how DC views her that way in certain cases. Also while I love Tara Strong and her vocal work...having her be the new voice of Harley just doesn’t work for me at all. I really rather have it be an unknown voice, then a known one.

I rather have DC take your the White Knight approach and instead of having 3 jokers there would be having two different versions of Harley Quinn as well. At least there it would be fair to fans that enjoy seeing the old Harley Quinn in a way.

Harley could work as an anti hero, if writers actually gave her a redemption arc. What they did was promote Harley to anti hero, pretend that she did nothing wrong and give her a free pass because LOL randumb and crazy.

DC has done this before in the past with Deathstroke. Thankfully it didn't stick.

[QUOTE=king81992;4822012]Harley could work as an anti hero, if writers actually gave her a redemption arc. What they did was promote Harley to anti hero, pretend that she did nothing wrong and give her a free pass because LOL randumb and crazy.

DC has done this before in the past with Deathstroke. Thankfully it didn't stick.[/QUOTE]

I understand why many fans feel this way but remember Harley was imprisoned and forced to join the suicide squad. It seems like a let off but all the time she spent with the squad she was a prisoner who was forced into task force x. In the beginning of the suicide squad run she is just as evil as before, but as time passes that changes, especially after Zalika was killed. She is not a hero, but she does not kill without hesitation and tries to protect those she cares for. Being forced to join the suicide squad for years is more recompense than many others have had to do.

Yeah 9 years ago when she was first put on suicide squad she was straight up written as the female joker. Just as bad and didn't care for anybody. Then she broke up with him or he tried to kill her either way that changed her
Nowadays on the Squad she is kinda like the team mom. So I guess that's character progression and its still considered punishment that's a better consequence then Lex or Deathstroke ever get
I still wouldn't put her on the Justice League or have every hero act like she's their best friend

[QUOTE=kjn;4817266]Harley Quinn was created as a sad clown and a trickster. Such a character easily transcends the rather simplistic hero-villain split that superhero storytelling originally was based on.[/QUOTE]
I honestly think that makes her a good fit for the hero-villain split, on the villain side, in a tragic sort of way.
[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4817504]I think that's true to a degree though a more accurate read would be to say she is a sociopath who does not fully grasp the death and violence she causes by her actions.
That is true
Harley views the world akin to a looney tunes cartoon. If you read her solo or hell even watch her animated series its easy to grasp how everything is less serious to he. [B]There's even an episode showing how she doesn't see herself as "bad"[/B]
Of course that's the role mental illness plays in people taking her crimes less seriously or not viewing her so badly.[/QUOTE]
Which came of ass making her seem kind of hypocritical when she tried to act like she had more standards then the other female villain she was working against.

And this is the same serious that established she was violent, anti-social, and kind of crazy before she even met Joker.
[QUOTE=lucius121;4822057]I understand why many fans feel this way but remember Harley was imprisoned and forced to join the suicide squad. It seems like a let off but all the time she spent with the squad she was a prisoner who was forced into task force x. In the beginning of the suicide squad run she is just as evil as before, but as time passes that changes, especially after Zalika was killed. She is not a hero, but she does not kill without hesitation and tries to protect those she cares for. Being forced to join the suicide squad for years is more recompense than many others have had to do.[/QUOTE]
The current Suicide Squad doesn't feel like much of a recompense when they get used by Waller as weapons to kill a bunch of people.

Bad people maybe, but when Harley kills someone and rubs it in Kid Flash's face it doesn't feel like she feels any worse about being a killer.

I personally don't follow Harley's journey but generally I have to say:


1) Everything is fair as long as continuities are different. Any character can be a hero in one world and a villain in an other. Within a universe characters should preferably stay consistent - which doesn't mean that characters aren't allowed to change their way of thinking along their journey. Elseworlds stories and other media appearances like cartoons or games normally work fine because they have one writer, a clear direction for a character and aren't on-goings that are meant to be "forever". The only problem I really see is main-continuity. The problem with main-continuity is the amount of different writers who want to use a character - but sometimes writers have a different understanding of a character or don't even really care for a character and only want to push a certain story or other characters. And this is not a Harley Quinn problem. That's a general DC problem (probably Marvel too, but I don't read Marvel, so I don't know).

2) I'm in favor of redemption. And I'm in favor of rehabilitation and reintegration. But sadly that's very rare in superhero comics. Most "heroes" punch the bad guy in the face, throw him into prison and call it a day until said guy breaks out again and then they can punch him in the face again and throw him back. Sometimes heroes even know the backstory of a villain and know why/how they became what they are now. And heroes still don't give a ****. It's nonsensical that a hero wouldn't try (hard) to help a criminal to change for the better. So many people could be saved: the criminal, potential future victims and people who could be saved by the redeemed person in the future.

So if DC wants to turn Harley in a hero or anti-hero, I'm all for it, even if I'm not interested in her as a character. There are enough other villains - and with Punchline being introduced soon, a villainous Harley will be redundant in main-continuity. I'd prefer it if DC would present her in a consistent way but as already mentioned, inconsistency is a general DC problem, not a specific Harley Quinn problem.

3) Harley Quinn gets a lot of hate - a lot of vocal hate. I'm not in a position to judge if people are justified in their hate since I don't know much about Harley. Personally, I try not to hate any fictional character because it's stupid. But sometimes it's even hard for me. On the other hand I don't think it's that difficult to ignore Harley. Yes, she has a lot of appearances but often it's clear beforehand that she's the main character or an important character of a story, so: Don't like, don't read/watch. Guest appearances don't look that troublesome to me either because Harley will be gone in a few issues. If I can ignore/tolerate characters like Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne (who are together far, far more popular and more present in comics than Harley) then other people should be able to ignore/tolerate Harley.

I haven't read in a long time but I did saw a few panels so all I can say is this
If she's still in a Suicide Squad she shouldn't be on Coney Island
If DC wants to have both series, then have the Coney Island one an Elseworld, or vice versa depending on what DC wants
Likewise, unless she's kidnapped by Brainiac, become a backup during that one JL vs SS story, or freed to help the heroes during Dark Knights Metal, she shouldn't be anywhere near the Justice League as an ally.

That's about her presence and her job.

Now about her personality and morality. What is her actual stance on murder and what are the heroes' stance on murder?
Has she crossed a line? Has she atoned? Does her Suicide Squad work count in canon as atonement?
Do they have an understanding of her insanity as an excuse or is it portrayed as more complex?

In other words, do all characters' actions and motivations in stories make sense or are her presence just marketing ploy?
I'm not gonna say anything if her presence in an ad is just an ad while the story makes sense, but if she's only there as an ad in both the ad and in the story, meaning they don't even bother to make the story make sense, then I have a problem

[QUOTE=Sergard;4824973]If I can ignore/tolerate characters like Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne (who are together far, far more popular and more present in comics than Harley) [/QUOTE]

So you must be here for Tim and Jason then?

Harley is a sadist and a killer, she enjoys what she does. I have no problem with this, that’s her personality. What I have problems with is that the heroes treat her as if she had never done anything wrong in her life, she even received a hug from Barbara. C’mon, Dc. The only thing the heroes should do when they see her is to kick her ass.