Vegeta and Nappa land on Viltrim (Invincible)

In a strange twist of fate, Nappa and Vegeta land on another conqueurers planet, Viltrim.

How do the two of them do?

[video=youtube;6i0Ub6BH1PA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i0Ub6BH1PA[/video]

I imagine most of them, at least the strong ones, should be fine after Nappa's usual flashy entrance, and then it's all out war.

So now we get to figure out if anyone besides Thragg can fight Vegeta.

Is this pre or post scourge virus?

If it's the full population of Viltrum in its prime then I don't think Vegeta and Nappa can win without doing irreparable to the planet which might leave them in a bit of a sticky situation afterwards.

I think the peak Viltrumite's are stronger, maybe (?) DBZ strength is a bit hard to gauge, and they are also durable enough to resist their respective off the cuff firepower so they could just zerg rush them.

It's a tough fight but it's not impossible for either side. I think the issue is that Vegeta and Nappa might not have the stamina for it.

Also, there's always the risk that the Viltrumites could drag them into space. Saiyans do not have the lung capacity to match Viltrumites.

I would assume this is post-scourge, given that was a very, very long time ago.

Vegeta should be soooooo much stronger than the Viltrumites, there really won't be much they can do to him. Nappa casually, with an off-hand gesture, annihilates a city-plus sized area. In a playful afternoon, he obliterates the world's armed forces because he's impatient to wait for Goku. Vegeta is more than three times as powerful. That's pretty far beyond Viltrumite feats.

Though... DBZ power-levels.

[QUOTE=big_adventure;5528571]I would assume this is post-scourge, given that was a very, very long time ago.

Vegeta should be soooooo much stronger than the Viltrumites, there really won't be much they can do to him. Nappa casually, with an off-hand gesture, annihilates a city-plus sized area. In a playful afternoon, he obliterates the world's armed forces because he's impatient to wait for Goku. Vegeta is more than three times as powerful. That's pretty far beyond Viltrumite feats.

Though... DBZ power-levels.[/QUOTE]

I'm actually now embarking on cataloging the strength feats from Dragon Ball so I can actually have a clear idea of where Z starts as a baseline because, in terms of actual physical feats (like lifting and smashing stuff) they aren't much to write home about in Viltrumite circles physically. I suspect it's going to have to rely on an algorithm.

I'll be posting that write-up in my algorithms thread.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5528581]I'm actually now embarking on cataloging the strength feats from Dragon Ball so I can actually have a clear idea of where Z starts as a baseline because, in terms of actual physical feats (like lifting and smashing stuff) they aren't much to write home about in Viltrumite circles physically. I suspect it's going to have to rely on an algorithm.

I'll be posting that write-up in my algorithms thread.[/QUOTE]

They don't really do a lot of lifting stuff, that's for sure.

OTOH, their punches and kicks seem in the vicinity of as strong as their ki blasts (they hurt or don't hurt the same people) - yeah, it's going to need an algorithm. Dudes who punch with planet-sundering forces (not saying that Saiyan saga Vegeta does, but later in the series he is obviously casually past that level) have planet-sundering amounts of strength. Barely-a-super-saiyan Trunks casually annihilates two guys who casually annihilate planets.

For this one - I don't think that most rank and file Viltrumites can tank even Nappa's "opening move." And Veggie is oceans beyond the guy. Obviously some of the named Viltrumites can take it - Thragg would find it a clever way to dry his moustache, I imagine, Conquest would probably have extra blood flooding his nether regions - but the others? Tanking "glass an entire city" level stuff? I'm a little leery.

[QUOTE=big_adventure;5528618]Tanking "glass an entire city" level stuff? I'm a little leery.[/QUOTE]

I mean Mark took both a nuke to the face and an explosion that literally glassed Las Vegas and was barely effected by it.

And that was when he was significantly weaker than Nolan and Thragg and the other named people. The Viltrumites at large will likely be kind of okay except for the weaker ones.

[quote]OTOH, their punches and kicks seem in the vicinity of as strong as their ki blasts (they hurt or don't hurt the same people) - yeah, it's going to need an algorithm. Dudes who punch with planet-sundering forces (not saying that Saiyan saga Vegeta does, but later in the series he is obviously casually past that level) have planet-sundering amounts of strength. Barely-a-super-saiyan Trunks casually annihilates two guys who casually annihilate planets.[/quote]

For the record, I am extremely leery of this argument and never found it convincing.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5528630]I mean Mark took both a nuke to the face and an explosion that literally glassed Las Vegas and was barely effected by it.

[/QUOTE]

I had totally spaced on the Dinosaurus-ing of Vegas. Yeah, never mind about what I said. They will all be naked, however, after.

[QUOTE=big_adventure;5528785]I had totally spaced on the Dinosaurus-ing of Vegas. Yeah, never mind about what I said. They will all be naked, however, after.[/QUOTE]

"Oh look, Vegeta... [I]Elephant Men[/I]."

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5528581]I'm actually now embarking on cataloging the strength feats from Dragon Ball so I can actually have a clear idea of where Z starts as a baseline because, in terms of actual physical feats (like lifting and smashing stuff) they aren't much to write home about in Viltrumite circles physically. I suspect it's going to have to rely on an algorithm.

I'll be posting that write-up in my algorithms thread.[/QUOTE]

Here is Hazards unfinished thread in case you want a starting point:
[url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?5331-Dragon-Ball-Feat-Collection[/url]

A lot of their strength relies on striking force, which like a lot of fictional martial artists, can differ radically from their lifting capability.

For the thread itself; speed is the issue, as is range game. A full power Galick Gun would obliterate any Viltrumite, but the main issue is the fake moon Vegeta can dish out if things get too rough.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5528630]I mean Mark took both a nuke to the face and an explosion that literally glassed Las Vegas and was barely effected by it.[/quote]

Goku took far more than that when he was a teen fighting Piccolo in a tournament, result was the same except not only did it take out the city, but the mountain range as well while Goku had his clothes in tact. While Nappas attack blast was more akin to a country if not continental erasure judging on the upward size of the explosion seen from space dwarfing any nuclear explosion we got that can be seen from space(afaik). As well as the huge crater left behind while the Nuke Mark took just glassed the area.

[Quote]And that was when he was significantly weaker than Nolan[/quote]

Iirc, that point of the series took place after, or right before the war, meaning Mark was close, if not comparable to Nolan.

[Quote]and Thragg and the other named people. The Viltrumites at large will likely be kind of okay except for the weaker ones.[/quote]

That would imply Napas attack was only as strong as the nuke Mark took. I'd say anyone weaker than Nolan(so most of the Viltrumites that isn't Conquest or as strong as the ones Nolan and Mark fought on the bug planet) wouldn't be able to just tank it.

[Quote]For the record, I am extremely leery of this argument and never found it convincing.[/QUOTE]

Compared to their bigger blasts? You'd be right. They routinely strike aside normal ki blasts, a lot of the time their physical attacks do more damage than a normal ki blast, it's mostly their bigger attacks that do more than their physical attacks, especially the charged up attacks like the Galick Gun, which hits well above their striking abilities. Mainly attacks they seem to be able to charge above their base power(like when Goku shot a kamehameha at Raditz, and of course Piccolos Special Beam Cannon).

The idea that DBZ physical attacks are as strong as their ki blasts is contingent on the idea that their defenses don't vary, which I'm not convinced of.

My personal theory, which I haven't had the chance to investigate so I'm not going to present it as an actual argument for this match, is that their defenses vary throughout a fight. There's a default state which they can raise in response to stronger attacks, and the reason that they don't just use max defense all the time is because it would tire them out too much.

There are filler scenes which back that up, but I can't recall a concrete scene in the manga that confirms it

[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;5529131]The idea that DBZ physical attacks are as strong as their ki blasts is contingent on the idea that their defenses don't vary, which I'm not convinced of.

My personal theory, which I haven't had the chance to investigate so I'm not going to present it as an actual argument for this match, is that their defenses vary throughout a fight. There's a default state which they can raise in response to stronger attacks, and the reason that they don't just use max defense all the time is because it would tire them out too much.

There are filler scenes which back that up, but I can't recall a concrete scene in the manga that confirms it[/QUOTE]

Close actually, abmccray actually did a nice explanation on it, but I can't find it. It doesn't tire them out, but they can transfer energy to certain attributes depending on the situation. Canon has shown this, most famously with kid Goku punching through king Piccolo, in which case, Goku put all his energy into that punch. That is actually what he said too.

Striking force, energy projection, Speed, and durability can indeed vary depending on how much energy they focus on those attributes. It is why surprise attacks can be so deadly if the fighter isn't careful, a trend continuing in DBS(Goku taken out by a laser shot from behind after he reverted to his base state and literally letting his guard down, 17 tagging Jiren, etc).

Usually it is balanced, and they can indeed take as much as they can dish out, it just can depends on what attribute(s) they focus on at the time.

I haven't seen or read much of Invincible but I have heard of some feats.

I think a major durability feat for Vegeta at this time period is that he took on Goku's Kamehameha blast that overpowered his planet destroying Galick Gun and survived.

That should count for something, right?

[QUOTE=Aura Blaize;5541960]I haven't seen or read much of Invincible but I have heard of some feats.

I think a major durability feat for Vegeta at this time period is that he took on Goku's Kamehameha blast that overpowered his planet destroying Galick Gun and survived.

That should count for something, right?[/QUOTE]

Depends how seriously you take his claim of planet destroying.

[QUOTE=Aura Blaize;5541960]I haven't seen or read much of Invincible but I have heard of some feats.

I think a major durability feat for Vegeta at this time period is that he took on Goku's Kamehameha blast that overpowered his planet destroying Galick Gun and survived.

That should count for something, right?[/QUOTE]

I generally interpret that as Vegeta tanking a blast that had been weakened heavily by having to overcome his own Galick Gun. Still generally impressive, but not nearly as much as taking a full out blast.

[QUOTE=The Drunkard Kid;5541977]I generally interpret that as Vegeta tanking a blast that had been weakened heavily by having to overcome his own Galick Gun. Still generally impressive, but not nearly as much as taking a full out blast.[/QUOTE]

I see it as Vegeta actively getting away from it before it went through him, or explode. Avoiding most of the damage.

eh given that it was a continuous beam any energy lost in the tip should be rapidly replaced by fresh energy infused by Goku until he stopped

[QUOTE=Hiromi;5546923]eh given that it was a continuous beam any energy lost in the tip should be rapidly replaced by fresh energy infused by Goku until he stopped[/QUOTE]

Vegeta took the impact, but not the explosion.

I think that's a fair way to describe it.

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;5547441]Vegeta took the impact, but not the explosion.

I think that's a fair way to describe it.[/QUOTE]

Yup. We always know when one takes the full effect of an energy attack, and that is when it either goes right through them(whether they tank it or are killed by it), and/or explodes(whether they tank or are killed by it).