I'm not down with killing off Tim, just retire him and have him sit out for awhile. It's saves us the time of having to read through a bs resurrection event.
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I'm not down with killing off Tim, just retire him and have him sit out for awhile. It's saves us the time of having to read through a bs resurrection event.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5087713]Oh come now. How many characters at DC are excellent creations with a lot to offer, who have still been ignored or screwed up by DC?
Cass Cain is a fantastic character, yet DC has screwed her up so much she's barely recognizable now. How about Wonder Woman or Superman? You don't get much bigger than those two; but DC has successfully screwed up Superman for thirty years and screwed up Diana for sixty.
The value and quality of a character doesn't protect them from DC's mismanagement.[/QUOTE]
Agree. The value of characters are depending on the writer and management. It's ridiculous to bash a character because of writer's fault for failing to develop the character. After all they're all like dolls who get transferred from one writer to another writer. If the writer highly understand, interested, and invested with a character, the said character will flourish. It can be noted that Tynion handle Batman's book now and maybe at least 50 issues later, and his love for Tim is very much well known. His take on Tim on Tec' is also very good, except maybe the dying and Oz thing (I personally don't like it). So perhaps Tim will be Robin on Tynion's Batman book and he can have reason to write as many Tim's story as he liked. Who know, it's possible under Tynion Tim will get his fame back.
About Cass, isn't she kinda recognizable on Rebirth? She's one of main character in Outsider, and she's also good on Tynion's Tec. But I agree that New52 is dark era for Cass's fans, I only remember that she's appear on B&R Eternal by Tynion. It looks like he's fond of her too.
What makes me wonder is, since when DC planned to shift Robin title from Damian to Tim? Sure, when we know both Bendis and YJ colorer teases us about Tim potentially reclaims Robin title, and solicitation of TT annual 2 is about Damian loses Robin title, we are surprised. But I think DC already planned that from before TT's current rooster and YJ got released. After all, the announcement of current TT used Damian's name instead of Robin.
[IMG]https://i2.wp.com/www.comicbookrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Teen-Titans-Special-1-Cover.jpg?ssl=1[/IMG]
and first issue of YJ introduced Tim as Robin, not Red Robin
[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/jvoFPW3CQA1A_D8ufzH2rrGZ8wwnrwByxNs6Vbd84YlPL_buEbrbwMwbToRCmFeGgkXvKeLPmvsBfkO2y8jMf99zbcR0eVxBHHRHbT5qxC1fEVSvzdmsT7jfcMb06_mioJLmJ9hVYw=s1600[/IMG]
If this whole change is already planned since long time ago, there's high probability that it will certainly happen and not for a short time. After all, what's the point to plan the whole change since last year, dedicating whole runs for Damian's character assassination (probably to make reason from Damian's side, because Damian is not the type to let go Robin title easily. Look at Robin War), if that change only last for one arc?
My prediction is Tim will be Robin for whole upcoming Tynion's run. Damian probably will get new identity, as anti-hero or villain (even though it's silly to make 13 years old short kid as villain, no matter the identity of his grandpa).
I'm okay with it but I think it's better as a temporary stopgap. Tynion is bringing back the Bat-Family now that the man who scattered the family is gone and there's a new Bat-Editor and that includes having a Robin, but said man who scattered the Family also set Damian on a track where he COULDN'T realistically bounce back to being a stable Robin in time for this. There's also the thought that Robin exists to balance out Batman and Tim's softer touch compliments Bruce while Damian was a better match for Dick's lighter Batman. With Tomasi taking Damian on again, I hope he's able to heal from that disastrous Teen Titans run and come back to the Family and maybe allow Tim to take on a new role.
[QUOTE=Light of Justice;5087840]What makes me wonder is, since when DC planned to shift Robin title from Damian to Tim? Sure, when we know both Bendis and YJ colorer teases us about Tim potentially reclaims Robin title, and solicitation of TT annual 2 is about Damian loses Robin title, we are surprised. But I think DC already planned that from before TT's current rooster and YJ got released. After all, the announcement of current TT used Damian's name instead of Robin.
[IMG]https://i2.wp.com/www.comicbookrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Teen-Titans-Special-1-Cover.jpg?ssl=1[/IMG]
and first issue of YJ introduced Tim as Robin, not Red Robin
[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/jvoFPW3CQA1A_D8ufzH2rrGZ8wwnrwByxNs6Vbd84YlPL_buEbrbwMwbToRCmFeGgkXvKeLPmvsBfkO2y8jMf99zbcR0eVxBHHRHbT5qxC1fEVSvzdmsT7jfcMb06_mioJLmJ9hVYw=s1600[/IMG]
If this whole change is already planned since long time ago, there's high probability that it will certainly happen and not for a short time. After all, what's the point to plan the whole change since last year, dedicating whole runs for Damian's character assassination (probably to make reason from Damian's side, because Damian is not the type to let go Robin title easily. Look at Robin War), if that change only last for one arc?
My prediction is Tim will be Robin for whole upcoming Tynion's run. Damian probably will get new identity, as anti-hero or villain (even though it's silly to make 13 years old short kid as villain, no matter the identity of his grandpa).[/QUOTE]
I really doubt Damian will lose the Robin mantle.
I mean, even now the covers for Detective Comics #1027 has variant covers with Batman and other Bat-family members, including Damian as Robin, but Tim doesn't appear at all in these variant covers.
At most, I think Tim and Damian will share Robin mantle and they will be Batman's partner in different titles.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5087744]
Yeah, but it's not really building anything so much as putting it in a blender.
I love Batman and Superman but I wouldn't necessarily want to see them merged together as a character with their best traits on the off-chance that will appeal to both of their respective fanbases.
Why even have Dick Grayson instead of fusing him with Damian into some kind of Ultimate Robin? It just doesn't seem like a solution if you are personally invested in these characters.[/QUOTE]
Batman and Superman are totally different characters.
Jason and Tim serve the same purpose. They look the same, have minor differences, and they're both former 'Robins'. I think the most story potential in Jason and Tim is in offering a young protege with a totally different ideological worldview. Damian is also a young character, but he's Bruce's legit son so he needs to be with his father.
[QUOTE=Aahz;5087668]When it comes to Dick's gen please keep in mind this wasn't only about Dick and Tim but about the Teen Titans franchise.
Tims gen had taken over this title already years before and came of a success 100 issue run.
Dicks gen on the other hand was with exception of Dick and Wally not particularly successful since the early to mid 90s, and had gotten very close in age to their mentors. So keeping Tim's gen over Dicks made kind of sense. Problem was just that the new 52 Teen Titans run was terrible.
When it comes to Terry technically his history wasn't replaced, and the whole thing was anyway wired since the "Tim Drake" they replaced him with was hardly recognizable as Tim Drake.
The main problems with Tim at the moment at the moment are the comics he has been in, most of them were pretty bad, and and up until rebirth he (and the rest of his generation) have been hardly recognizable in these comics.
The best comic he has been in since flashpoint was Tynions Tec, and unfortunately he was "dead" for large parts of this run.[/QUOTE]
A successful run does not make it okay to erase the time.
Where exactly are you talking about? can you show me that Tim's gen was more Successful than Dick's?
Their time as titans didn't need to go to have Tim and co as TT.
No one said that Terry's history was replaced.
Tim in YJ isn't setting the charts ablaze
Tynion's Tim was often the subject of complaints even by fans of the character
Lobdell's TT was Bad
Batman Beyond wasn't Tim yet I've seen fans defend more than complain about him in that title.
Red Robin was Tim trying to be Batman so not again Tim but that get's praised so you can't use the whole it wasn't really Tim argument.
Excuses, Excuses.
All of that doesn't really matter. What matter's is that DC has given him lots of chances it's time they gave his character a break and invested in another/other struggling characters.
[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5087898]Batman and Superman are totally different characters.
Jason and Tim serve the same purpose. They look the same, have minor differences, and they're both former 'Robins'. I think the most story potential in Jason and Tim is in offering a young protege with a totally different ideological worldview. Damian is also a young character, but he's Bruce's legit son so he needs to be with his father.[/QUOTE]
Jason and Tim are two different Robins and they represent two diametrically opposed takes on the Robin identity. Any resemblance is moot because Jason was dead when Tim became Robin and was unrecognizable when he became Red Hood.
It's like saying The Flashes are indistinct from each other.
[QUOTE=Fergus;5087912]A successful run does not make it okay to erase the time.
Where exactly are you talking about? can you show me that Tim's gen was more Successful than Dick's?
Their time as titans didn't need to go to have Tim and co as TT.
No one said that Terry's history was replaced.
Tim in YJ isn't setting the charts ablaze
Tynion's Tim was often the subject of complaints even by fans of the character
Lobdell's TT was Bad
Batman Beyond wasn't Tim yet I've seen fans defend more than complain about him in that title.
Red Robin was Tim trying to be Batman so not again Tim but that get's praised so you can't use the whole it wasn't really Tim argument.
Excuses, Excuses.
All of that doesn't really matter. What matter's is that DC has given him lots of chances it's time they gave his character a break and invested in another/other struggling characters.[/QUOTE]
The original YJ and Johns' Teen Titans with Tim's generation were pretty popular.
[QUOTE=Fergus;5087912]Where exactly are you talking about? can you show me that Tim's gen was more Successful than Dick's?[/QUOTE]Tims gen had a #100 issue run as teen titans right up until Flashpoint.
Dicks gen had after NTT was over (and before flashpoint) two Titans runs, both didn't last that long, during the second the books was at the end even turned into a book about an evil titans team led by Deathstroke.
Erasing the history was imo not really necessary, but at the time of the start of the new 52 it made definitely more sense to continue Teen Titans with Tims gen, then to do Titans Dicks gen.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5087919]Jason and Tim are two different Robins and they represent two diametrically opposed takes on the Robin identity. Any resemblance is moot because Jason was dead when Tim became Robin and was unrecognizable when he became Red Hood.
[/QUOTE]
Agree to disagree, I guess. You seem caught up in what "is" with references to story beats and minor traits, I'm talking about creating something new out of something that isn't working. There's nothing "diametrically opposed" about Jason and Tim.
[QUOTE=Aahz;5087966]Tims gen had a #100 issue run as teen titans right up until Flashpoint.
Dicks gen had after NTT was over (and before flashpoint) two Titans runs, both didn't last that long, during the second the books was at the end even turned into a book about an evil titans team led by Deathstroke.
Erasing the history was imo not really necessary, but at the time of the start of the new 52 it made definitely more sense to continue Teen Titans with Tims gen, then to do Titans Dicks gen.[/QUOTE]
I guest that is worth mentioning than when New 52 started, their story wasn't erased, Tim refered to his team as a new incarnation of the TT and Red Hood and the Outlaws and Batwoman first issues also made references of the team. It wasn't until lile issue 6 when that changed, i imagine thatnit was a consequence of DC "5 years timeline" nonsense around the time.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5087919]Jason and Tim are two different Robins and they represent two diametrically opposed takes on the Robin identity. Any resemblance is moot because Jason was dead when Tim became Robin and was unrecognizable when he became Red Hood.
It's like saying The Flashes are indistinct from each other. [/QUOTE]
I think we have seen in other media that the Flashes can actually be amalgamated somewhat successfully, though we may agree to disagree on that.
BUT one big difference between the Flashes and Tim as Robin is that having two Flashes (Barry and Wally) creates a legacy character and a passing of the torch. It's a new story possibility. But we've already seen this before with the Robin mantle with Jason and also later Damian, so Tim doesn't really bring anything new in that regard.
[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5087967]Agree to disagree, I guess. You seem caught up in what "is" with references to story beats and minor traits, I'm talking about creating something new out of something that isn't working. There's nothing "diametrically opposed" about Jason and Tim.[/QUOTE]
What's "not working?" Jason is fairly popular as Red Hood. Tim fans are passionate about him and wishes he was better used.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5088012]I think we have seen in other media that the Flashes can actually be amalgamated somewhat successfully, though we may agree to disagree on that.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say it wasn't successful but it created the issue of adaptions undermining Wally by giving Barry Wally's traits and stories.
[QUOTE]BUT one big difference between the Flashes and Tim as Robin is that having two Flashes (Barry and Wally) creates a legacy character and a passing of the torch. It's a new story possibility. But we've already seen this before with the Robin mantle with Jason and also later Damian, so Tim doesn't really bring anything new in that regard.[/QUOTE]
But Tim's a completely different legacy story than Jason, because his predecessor died and he was meant to be the more conventional Robin to what Post-Crisis Jason was.
[QUOTE=Fergus;5087912]A successful run does not make it okay to erase the time.[/QUOTE]What I forgot in the previous post, the history of Tim gen (including their previous solos and team books) got also completely erased by Flashpoint. So apart from getting the Teen Titans Franchise Tim didn't really got a better treatment than Dick, and at least I would have preferred a Red robin solo over that Teen Titans book.
[QUOTE=Fergus;5087912]Tim in YJ isn't setting the charts ablaze[/QUOTE]Because theses characters have been mismanaged since flash point, so most readers that the pre flashpoint run had are probably gone at this point, and the current young justice is also not that exciting.
And the rebirth Titans run of Dicks gen was also not exactly a big success.
The Titans books during Tim’s Teen Titans run were canceled usually for other reason like Dick becoming Batman or what have you. While that gen remained far more successful outside of floppies. Also DC was actually surprised by Rebirth Titans initial success, as bad as that was it did much better then Young Justice has. DC just had no real interest in building on Titans or cultivating on that success. Where YJ will now be the second time they have tried to launch a line around Tim and his gen. A gen that isn’t really panning out despite that kind of support, and what’s more has had nothing going on outside of floppies.
Oh, and if Dick’s gen is aging Batman and Superman what is that ages Dick’s. That stuff trickles down. Character’s like Tim, Jason, or even Damian aren’t immune from them. They compound them.