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[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;4841073]Ah thanks! I had never seen that explanation before. It does seem to make sense and show why Cap would then be stronger than Wonder Woman.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Since her power description says she stronger than Hercules (who CM gets his strength from), that means her baseline strength level is stronger than Captain Marvel.
AAMOF, if he has too combine the abilities of other gods to compete with Superman, then by default Wonder Woman is stronger. Things get really interesting once Diana removes her bracelets and starts tapping her godly powers.
I really don' have a dog in this fight but I've seen it debated multiple times on multiple boards. All in all, I think its to close to call.
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The problem is that Shazam's powers are inconsistently portrayed, and always at the discretion of DC editors, especially when dealing with crossovers and guest appearances.
Traditionally, Shazam has been depicted to be on par with Superman in raw strength, speed, stamina and levels of invulnerability. He can certainly hold his own against opponents of Superman's caliber.
But, immediately after the Crisis event, that's when you have the inconsistencies popping up. One moment, due to simply having "The Strength of Hercules", Wonder Woman is suppose to be stronger than Shazam, since, back then, before being changed, Wonder Woman was gifted with the "Strength of Diameter", who is suppose to be stronger than Hercules, via drawing strength from the Earth.
This, of course, does not include the power split stuff that Shazam also suffered from.
Moving forward, when Shazam was made into a "Champion of Magic", the gifts he received were more "magical" than not, and focused on the qualities of the gifts. Meaning, things were left deliberately vague (see: Trials of SHAZAM!).
The only recent push to make Shazam's strength a quantifiable variable was during his stint to gain new powers during the so-called "Darkseid War", in which Billy Batson had to undergo a test of character with the god of strength Si'iva, a New God from the Third World, who was so strong that he'd made Hercules look like a 98-lbs weakling. Once Billy earned his strength, he was able to defeat Yuga Khan, aka Darkseid's father.
Unfortunately, there is no indication if Billy kept his new powers, or if he returned to his original power-set, at the end of the Darkseid War (most likely the latter, since DC editors tend to not keep track of their characters very well).
With Geoff Johns at the helm of the present book, I do hope we get a definitive answer on just how strong Shazam! is...
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[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;4841408]Not really. Since her power description says she stronger than Hercules (who CM gets his strength from), that means her baseline strength level is stronger than Captain Marvel.
AAMOF, if he has too combine the abilities of other gods to compete with Superman, then by default Wonder Woman is stronger. Things get really interesting once Diana removes her bracelets and starts tapping her godly powers.
I really don' have a dog in this fight but I've seen it debated multiple times on multiple boards. All in all, I think its to close to call.[/QUOTE]
Shazam began his existence in a different universe. The strength of the DC Hercules and how he compares to Wonder Woman is pretty irrelevant to how the Fawcett Hercules and the spell operates. For Shazam, strength of Hercules = strength of Superman. Whereas with Wonder Woman, however she gets her strength, her strength level is a little below Superman but she has surpassed the DCU's Hercules. She also doesn't gain any heightened powers when removing the bracelets across all versions. To my knowledge, that's only made a recent appearance in the New 52 but otherwise has been absent from most modern versions.
If we have to have clutter Earth, I think Billy should get in line behind Diana because she's always existed in the same universe as Superman and has had the #2 position or near equal position always. But he's honestly better suited on Earth-5.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4841424]Shazam began his existence in a different universe. The strength of the DC Hercules and how he compares to Wonder Woman is pretty irrelevant to how the Fawcett Hercules and the spell operates. For Shazam, strength of Hercules = strength of Superman. Whereas with Wonder Woman, however she gets her strength, her strength level is a little below Superman but she has surpassed the DCU's Hercules. She also doesn't gain any heightened powers when removing the bracelets across all versions. To my knowledge, that's only made a recent appearance in the New 52 but otherwise has been absent from most modern versions.[/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying but their in the same universe now, so "DC's Hercules" is now where Captain Marvel gets his strength from. Making his baseline, un-enhanced strength inferior to Diana and Clark. Now keep in mind, I'm more than willing to accept that CM can increase his strength to match or surpass Superman but starting out...he is beneath them. I think the final nail in the coffin for me was the pic of him saying he has to use the powers of Hercules and Atlas to match Superman and in a arm-wrestling contest.
Wonder Woman's current version can increase her power by removing her bracelets...which is the one I'm going with in this discussion.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4841424]If we have to have clutter Earth, I think Billy should get in line behind Diana because she's always existed in the same universe as Superman and has had the #2 position or near equal position always. But he's honestly better suited on Earth-5.[/QUOTE]
I actually don't like shipping him off to his own universe. I feel like it lessen the character to unknown land.
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[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;4841470]I get what you're saying but their in the same universe now, so "DC's Hercules" is now where Captain Marvel gets his strength from. Making his baseline, un-enhanced strength inferior to Diana and Clark. Now keep in mind, I'm more than willing to accept that CM can increase his strength to match or surpass Superman but starting out...he is beneath them. (IMHO)[/QUOTE]
I guess that's how it has to work now, but it kind of goes against what CM was created to be. Wonder Woman already struggles with that as well and she was made for the same universe. Hell, so does Superman.
[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;4841470]Wonder Woman's current version can increase her power by removing her bracelets...which is the one I'm going with in this discussion.[/QUOTE]
That was New 52 though, I'm not sure it's really established for Rebirth.
[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;4841470]I actually don't like shipping him off to his own universe. I feel like it lessen the character to unknown land.[/QUOTE]
He kind of gets shunted to the side more often than not anyway. How consistently often does he get his own series? That, in addition to being weaker than Superman and Wonder Woman At least on his own Earth, he's the embodiment of the Superman archetype he is meant to be. On the same Earth, he is redundant.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4841489]I guess that's how it has to work now, but it kind of goes against what CM was created to be. Wonder Woman already struggles with that as well and she was made for the same universe. Hell, so does Superman.
That was New 52 though, I'm not sure it's really established for Rebirth.
He kind of gets shunted to the side more often than not anyway. How consistently often does he get his own series? That, in addition to being weaker than Superman and Wonder Woman At least on his own Earth, he's the embodiment of the Superman archetype he is meant to be. On the same Earth, he is redundant.[/QUOTE]
I agree on all points
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[QUOTE=Buried Alien;4841140]I've long believed that Shazam/Captain Marvel is stronger than Wonder Woman in terms of raw power, but in a fight, she'd almost always beat him because she's a warrior born and trained and Billy isn't.
[COLOR=RED]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure Diana almost always beats anyone in a fight. I mean, when Batman's plan to defeat you is "call Superman and hope to hell he wins" you know you're a gods damn badass.
Anyway, I don't think DC has ever dealt with the Hercules thing. But I figure if Billy's the champion of magic, and we're dealing with wizards secret lairs and spells, then this is arcane magic. The "algebra" of the supernatural world. The spell that empowers Billy doesn't come from Hercules, but it's based on the guy. It's an arcane copy of a divine essence. So Billy might indeed be stronger than the actual demigod, if the spell itself is made stronger.
Also explains how Billy is unaffected by what happens to the gods on Olympus. Zeus and whoever else have died or changed in drastic ways, but Billy's power remain unaffected.
Who's stronger? I figure Clark's #1. That's not even disputable in my mind. That's how DC itself handles it, despite a bit of lip service here and there, and a bit of jobbing to make others look good. Diana and Billy vie for that #2 spot. If you compare feats, I'm betting they're real close to each other too, though Diana probably has an advantage just from having a lot more appearances and a stronger presence through the years. In my head, Billy's a tad stronger, but would be lucky to even land a punch against Diana before he was bleeding.
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[QUOTE=Buried Alien;4837396]Has DC ever established the absolute upper limit of Shazam/Captain Marvel's strength? "Strength of Hercules" and "Stamina of Atlas" do not represent a precise quantity.
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]
With the Strength of Hercules and the ability to use the power of Zeus to draw on all of the earth's magic it is not surprising that even conventional items deemed nigh indestructible and even unbreakable have been sundered a blow from the World's Mightiest Mortal.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4840985]
Someone with more Shazam knowledge could possibly answer this, but does Hercules literally give Billy strength or is it a spell that symbolically draws on the totemic strength that Hercules is known for?[/QUOTE]
The latter.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4841995]The latter.[/QUOTE]
...Which is why I'll never understand why Shazam was never a member of the JLD team...
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[QUOTE=dswynne;4842037]...Which is why I'll never understand why Shazam was never a member of the JLD team...[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming because he's a kid.
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[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;4840865]If Shazam/CM is on a par with Supermanm is he stronger than Wonder Woman?
It is said that Shazam/CM has the strength of Hercules and that WW is stronger than Hercules. So by this thinking, shouldn't WW be stronger than Shazam/CM?[/QUOTE]
Specifically to the strength of Hercules
I've seen it that it's a different god to the Olympian, but only rarely
I've also seen it that Hercules donated some of his strength to the Wizards spell so isn't as strong as he could be if there wasn't a cm or Shazam
I've also seen it that cm splits off some of his power for the other marvels (less likely I think now), as when he suffered from greed he pulled it back to him
In terms of feats it's fairly awesome And its clearly amped up by the other sources of his power, especially Zeus iirc
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[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;4841283]I always thought Black Adam was stated to be more powerful than Cap either because he was the first champion, and was given some additional advantages or the power of the Eqyptian deities that empower him was greater.[/QUOTE]
I believe that was due to the idea that CMS power was split down to Mary and cmj, which I think is no longer the case
But yeah I think Adam did have the edge
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4841995]The latter.[/QUOTE]
I've seen it said Hercules donated some portion of his strength and also it's a different Hercules to the Olympian one
Separately
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[QUOTE=kilderkin;4842091]I've seen it said Hercules donated some portion of his strength and also it's a different Hercules to the Olympian one
Separately[/QUOTE]
How many Herculi could there be...or is it a Multiverse thing?
[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color]
