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[QUOTE=houndsofluv;4625732]his dream needs to change to allow for new character/story developments . This isn’t the first time they’ve diverged from it and it won’t be the last. The x-men as characters are more than the sum of xavier’s philosophies[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between changing the idea of acceptance and merged societies and abandoning the dream entirely though. What Jean was doing in X-Men Red was a change in the dream and marketed as such. What's happening here with Krakoa is total, full scale abandonment.
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[QUOTE=PsychoEFrost;4625719]So your argument is Krakoa is different because it has current narrative importance?
Okay. That's certainly a take.[/QUOTE]
Yes and because current storyline is vastly different then what was going on in the late 90s or early 10s... complaining that this is just a rehash while in the same breath pointing out that u dont like how stark of a departure it is from what came before... thats certainly a take.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;4625736]Xaviers dream being dead isn't new. We had several ethos come out in the last 15 years.[/QUOTE]
You mean in the lost decade?
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[QUOTE=houndsofluv;4625732]his dream needs to change to allow for new character/story developments . This isn’t the first time they’ve diverged from it and it won’t be the last. The x-men as characters are more than the sum of xavier’s philosophies[/QUOTE]
When have they ever diverged to this extent?
And correct me if I'm wrong, but what part of "peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants" needed to change?
Finally, if the dream was so stupid and pointless... WHY WERE YOU FOLLOWING THE X-MEN!?!?!?!?!?
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[QUOTE=tuck frump;4625741]Yes and because current storyline is vastly different then what was going on in the late 90s or early 10s... complaining that this is just a rehash while in the same breath pointing out that u dont like how stark of a departure it is from what came before... thats certainly a take.[/QUOTE]
Almost like you're taking two entirely different arguments, and conflating the two or something...
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Remember call me Alex vs Kitty Prydes accept me for what I am.
Or Emmas they will always hate us. Or Cyclops we will protect humans but we will not tolerate violence on mutants.
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[QUOTE=Theleviathan;4625724]Worrying that retcons happen is what is meaningless. They happen constantly. And will in the future too.
We wouldn't have 60 years of comic book stories without them. Or they'd be the kind of recycled garbage we've seen for far too long.[/QUOTE]
agree, is impossible have comics without retcons after decades of stories.
but Hickman completely changed all x-men interactions since the first ever issue. It is a huge implication
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;4625736]Xaviers dream being dead isn't new. We had several ethos come out in the last 15 years.[/QUOTE]
The closest we've come to the dream being dead in the last 15 years was "Mutant Hitler" Cyclops. This is even more extreme, and people are on board with it. That blows my mind.
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[QUOTE=PsychoEFrost;4625702]Having the X-Men unilaterally declare Xavier's dream to be completely dead may be fresh and new, but I would hardly call it "fun".[/QUOTE]
You might not, some others might. I don't think that's really the fun part. The most amusing and logical? Yes, certainly. At some point, somebody would have to portray the X-Men as exposed to too much grief to stick to Xavier's philosophy. There would be people trying to make him look like the worst thing to happen right after Rosenberg if he insisted on the first dream of Xavier.
Second, in the same manner his Avengers run started with the idea that everything dies and you can't win your enemy but only "not lose", to end on a very optimistic note, where it's shown how kindness and willingness to improve are far more effective than cynicism, Hickman might be setting things up to show that there are, indeed, ways to achieve coexistence.
Of course, I suppose we shouldn't consider the idea that what we saw in the prologue might not be the [I]entirety[/I] of what the writer wants to achieve, and there might be more to come. So, you can just dismiss whatever I said, if that's good with you.
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People are really acting as if there ever was going to come a day where the XMen finally achieve their goal. The dream needed to change because attempts to go back to basics have failed, both in universe and in a meta sense. Every popular run of the last 20 years has been abt pushing the envelope and redefining what the message was rather then retreading old paths.
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4625751]agree, is impossible have comics without retcons after decades of stories.
but Hickman completely changed all x-men interactions since the first ever issue. It is a huge implication[/QUOTE]
I won't deny that. I think it's an exciting thing to consider.
Can he stick the landing to this premise? That's the question and I'm engaged with finding out. It has literally been decades for this X-fan since I've felt this engaged. Book sales seem to indicate it's bringing a lot of people back. That's a good thing. Now let's see if Hickman can make it work.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;4625750]Remember call me Alex vs Kitty Prydes accept me for what I am.
Or Emmas they will always hate us. Or Cyclops we will protect humans but we will not tolerate violence on mutants.[/QUOTE]
And how do those contradict the dream? Peaceful coexistence never meant "lay down and let them stomp on our faces with their boots" and you know it.
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[QUOTE=PsychoEFrost;4625752]The closest we've come to the dream being dead in the last 15 years was "Mutant Hitler" Cyclops. This is even more extreme, and people are on board with it. That blows my mind.[/QUOTE]
We've had:
Emma in Astonishing X-Men 1
Scott in Utopia
Kitty Pryde in All New X-Men
Havok in Uncanny Avengers
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4625720]
Totally different ballgame if it's later revealed the Magnificent Bastard wearing a telepathy-boosting helmet 24/7 nudged everyone in a particular direction, though.
[/QUOTE]
Its certainly implied he is stacking the deck. By manipulating who and how we don't know.
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[QUOTE=PsychoEFrost;4625756]And how do those contradict the dream? Peaceful coexistence never meant "lay down and let them stomp on our faces with their boots" and you know it.[/QUOTE]
Thats the exact quote. Thats not the same as Xaviers dream
We must prove ourselves a peaceful people. We must give the ordinary humans respect, compliance, and understanding. And we must never mistake that for trust.
Xavier was all in. Constantly trying to put mutants in harms way so that humans would be appeased and one day turn around and say oh you guys aren't so bad. Which us just not within human nature.
And niether is Havoks call me Alex I'm just like you. Being a mutant shouldn't define you