Ed Brubabker Criticizes Disney/Marvel For Lack Of Winter Soldier Royalties

[QUOTE=numberthirty;5493693]For anyone to seriously entertain such an idea?

They would have to ignore a whole lot of what they know about how the man's career has actually unfolded.[/QUOTE]


What does that even mean? Are you claiming the Brubaker has not benefitted financially from the Winter Soldier being made into a movie? Half of you guys speak in terms like super villains in the comics. If you are saying Brubaker didn't benefit from the winter soldier being made into a movie then you need to do better than speak in vague oh you don't even know Brubakers story terms. Did marvel blackmail him or something? Did someone empty his accounts? Is he living in a van down by the river?

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493704]What does that even mean? [B][COLOR="#0000FF"]Are you claiming the Brubaker has not benefitted financially from the Winter Soldier being made into a movie[/COLOR][/B]? Half of you guys speak in terms like super villains in the comics. If you are saying Brubaker didn't benefit from the winter soldier being made into a movie then you need to do better than speak in vague oh you don't even know Brubakers story terms. Did marvel blackmail him or something? Did someone empty his accounts? Is he living in a van down by the river?[/QUOTE]

I am saying that you have to ignore quite a bit to even entertain the idea that the film in question is really central to his success as a writer in the time since that film came out.

[QUOTE=numberthirty;5493707]I am saying that you have to ignore quite a bit to even entertain the idea that the film in question is really central to his success as a writer in the time since that film came out.[/QUOTE]

I never claimed that. I said that the winter soldier movie and tv has made him more money than if it didn't come out because it increased his clout and his profile. He has always been a very good writer. That doesnt discount that the movies success helped him become even more successful.

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493713]I never claimed that. I said that the winter soldier movie and tv has made him more money than if it didn't come out because it increased his clout and his profile. He has always been a very good writer. [B][COLOR="#0000FF"]That doesnt discount that the movies success helped him become even more successful.[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Again, you've got to really be in the dark about the guy's career to seriously buy into that.

I get that some folks are, but it doesn't really change that reality.

[QUOTE=numberthirty;5493716]Again, you've got to really be in the dark about the guy's career to seriously buy into that.

I get that some folks are, but it doesn't really change that reality.[/QUOTE]

Ok this is a circle jerk now. You are saying that his work being adapted into a movie didn't help his career. I am saying it did. We won't solve this divide. Take care.

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493631]So you don't think Brubaker has benefitted financially in anyway since Marvel/ Disney has made the winter solider movie? This is where this goes in circles. Brubaker has become even more popular as a writer since that movie. When he goes to a convention when there were actually conventions you don't think he could up his price for giving a speech? Was that all because Brubaker wrote that comic story in the early 2000s or is it because Disney made a movie out of one of his stories? Everything he does is worth more now.[/QUOTE]
Brubaker has said he does not benefit financially from Winter Soldier being in movies and on Disney+. Are you saying you know better about Brubaker’s finances than he does? I cannot make such a claim, so I take Brubaker at his word.

Here’s a better question for you. Why do you as a supposed comics fan not want to see a really good comics creator get better rewarded for his efforts? Why do you want this behemoth of a corporation to not generously compensate creators of stories, characters, copyrights and trademark which Disney and Marvel derive great benefit? Why would you take the side of a corporation over a human, and a comics creator at that? What kind of fan are you? Martin Goodman would have loved fans like you.

This thread really makes me appreciate Brubaker all the more. It was not a secret in nerdworld way before MCU Winter Soldier was a thing that Brubaker modernized Captain America, or introduced a Bucky retcon that was hard to swallow initially but (All-Comics) editorial bought it and we know now it paid off (it was the talk when I still followed IGN exclusively about comics or still cared about what Tom Brevoort posted online). And then I watched Winter Soldier which might be my favorite MCU movie of all time if I don't ever watch any more MCU movies.

So I'm in no hurry to crawl under Marvel/Disney skirts just to post platitudes against him.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5493738]Brubaker has said he does not benefit financially from Winter Soldier being in movies and on Disney+. Are you saying you know better about Brubaker’s finances than he does? I cannot make such a claim, so I take Brubaker at his word.

Here’s a better question for you. Why do you as a supposed comics fan not want to see a really good comics creator get better rewarded for his efforts? Why do you want this behemoth of a corporation to not generously compensate creators of stories, characters, copyrights and trademark which Disney and Marvel derive great benefit? Why would you take the side of a corporation over a human, and a comics creator at that? What kind of fan are you? Martin Goodman would have loved fans like you.[/QUOTE]


Brubaker is commenting on the fact that Disney does not directly compensate him for his winter soldier story. Again and really I can't say this any clearer. Marvel gave Brubaker the toys to play with. They gave him the job. He wrote the book, they paid him for it. He has made money from the sale of that book, and one would assume all the graphic novels that have been sold since then. Now if he has not then he signed a really stupid deal. During the release of the movie and since then the sales of his Graphic novels have increased. It still is sold even in most comic book stores. Now if you are here to claim this would be the case even if the movie never was made then I would disagree. This is a point that cannot be won. Not only has Disney/Marvel helped in promoting his stories on the Winter Soldier, it has helped his career at conventions, and book signings worldwide. Now again if you don't think this is the case then you know nothing about business. If Brubaker is claiming that him that Disney hasn't helped him make money off that character then he is refusing to acknowledge the free publicity his work has received on the character for the last 10 years which has increased his clout as an author, and made him a bigger celebrity than he already was. If he is saying I haven't made a dime off of his winter soldier stories then he signed the worst contract of all time. Again and I will repeat this. I bought his winter soldier books after the movie. Do you seriously think I am the only one? That I am the sole naive dope that really didn't know much about the character when Disney made the movie I was the only one who said wow this is cool let me check out Brubakers books? His winter solider graphic novel based on his second run of the character hit the shelves in sept of 2014. The same year the movie came out. Now do you honestly think that thing sells the same if not for the movie? Don't deflect be honest?

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493769]Brubaker is commenting on the fact that Disney does not directly compensate him for his winter soldier story. Again and really I can't say this any clearer. Marvel gave Brubaker the toys to play with. They gave him the job. He wrote the book, they paid him for it. He has made money from the sale of that book, and one would assume all the graphic novels that have been sold since then. Now if he has not then he signed a really stupid deal. During the release of the movie and since then the sales of his Graphic novels have increased. It still is sold even in most comic book stores. Now if you are here to claim this would be the case even if the movie never was made then I would disagree. This is a point that cannot be won. Not only has Disney/Marvel helped in promoting his stories on the Winter Soldier, it has helped his career at conventions, and book signings worldwide. Now again if you don't think this is the case then you know nothing about business.[B][COLOR="#0000FF"] If Brubaker is claiming that him that Disney hasn't helped him make money off that character then he is refusing to acknowledge the free publicity his work has received on the character for the last 10 years which has increased his clout as an author, and made him a bigger celebrity than he already was. [/COLOR][/B] If he is saying I haven't made a dime off of his winter soldier stories then he signed the worst contract of all time. Again and I will repeat this. I bought his winter soldier books after the movie. Do you seriously think I am the only one? That I am the sole naive dope that really didn't know much about the character when Disney made the movie I was the only one who said wow this is cool let me check out Brubakers books? His winter solider graphic novel based on his second run of the character hit the shelves in sept of 2014. The same year the movie came out. Now do you honestly think that thing sells the same if not for the movie? Don't deflect be honest?[/QUOTE]

To put this in pretty simple terms...

The man has pointed out that he was stunned buy the wave of fans that came in at [B][I]Kill Or Be Killed[/I][/B] knowing nothing of his earlier work.

Unless the guy is running a truly masterful long con?

That would mean that they do not even know about [B][I]Fatale[/I][/B].

Never mind all of this gravy that having written "The Winter Soldier" has supposedly put on his plate.

Past that...

I still haven't seen a single [B][I]even halfway decent[/I][/B] argument for why Marvel and the mouse should not at least make an attempt at fairly compensating for using his work for more than the one time they actually paid him for.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5493738]Why do you as a supposed comics fan not want to see a really good comics creator get better rewarded for his efforts? Why do you want this behemoth of a corporation to not generously compensate creators of stories, characters, copyrights and trademark which Disney and Marvel derive great benefit? Why would you take the side of a corporation over a human, and a comics creator at that? What kind of fan are you?[/quote]

(sotto voce for everyone in the board)"What kind of human being are you?" is the actual subtext behind this.

[quote]Martin Goodman would have loved fans like you.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493769]Again and really I can't say this any clearer. [/quote]

Say it and repeat it as many time, it won't make it true. What you argue is completely and totally false, and a blatant misrepresentation of history and context.

[quote]Now if you are here to claim this would be the case even if the movie never was made then I would disagree. This is a point that cannot be won.[/quote]

It's not about winning. It's about the truth.

Timely/Atlas/Marvel was a total [I]pezzo di merda[/I] as a comics company and would have remained so in all likelihood had it not been for Kirby and Ditko. The creations of those two men led to the development of Marvel comics as a brand. In and of itself, Marvel doesn't mean a damn thing. And it would not have been a damn thing without the influence of Kirby and Ditko which roped in new talent like Steranko, Roy Thomas, Don McGregor, Claremont, Jim Starlin, Marv Wolfman, Roger Stern, John Byrne, Walt Simonson and others.

And Marvel in the late-90s and early 2000s wasn't worth a damn thing either, scraping out of bankruptcy and so on. Humility on the part of Quesada (real or feigned) led to new talent coming in at Marvel and allowing independent creators to explore ideas and stuff in the comics and so on.

So this arrogance that Brubaker or anyone who contributed to Marvel f--king owes them anything is ridiculous. Nobody owes Marvel or Disney or Warner Bros. or DC Comics, or Fox, or anyone any damn thing.

I would think they should. But not just for Brubaker but for everyone involved in the collaborative creative process in the past. But I also know that established media without required royalty payments is a draw for companies and they might seek out different properties with fewer royalty requirements.

We're signaling out Brubaker because he is the big name, but any story element that is borrowed is also deserving of compensation. Every design element used taken from the art as well. Brubaker was probably compensated at a better rate than many of the people involved.

I think Baron Zemo is another example. Are we compensating Roy Thomas and Tony Isabella? Are we compensating J.M. DiMatteis? I feel like Roger Stern is the one who really made the character interesting by bringing him to the Avengers as the head of the Masters of Evil and Kurt Buseik's Thunderbolts run really solidified the character. And I can guarantee Tony Isabella did not make anywhere near enough money off the character as Ed Brubaker made off The Winter Soldier. I'm also leaving off artists. I have no idea who designed the character. I'm assuming it was Mike Zeck, although that's far from certain. And the design is so derivative of Jack Kirby's design that maybe his estate should be compensated as well.

All of this sounds good. And if a studio made their creative decisions without financial considerations, it would be great. But it feels like we're going to trend closer to Agents of SHIELD and use lots of original characters that are reminiscent of comics characters to avoid compensating those original creators and I would hate that. I want to see my comics come to life in a new and interesting way but clearly a derivative work. Whenever the movies go for an original character when there's a clear comics choice, I feel that's a lost opportunity, but I also think fairness would dictate compensating many people for their past contributions if we're just doing it to be charitable.

[QUOTE=inisideguy;5493769]Brubaker is commenting on the fact that Disney does not directly compensate him for his winter soldier story. Again and really I can't say this any clearer. Marvel gave Brubaker the toys to play with. They gave him the job. He wrote the book, they paid him for it. He has made money from the sale of that book, and one would assume all the graphic novels that have been sold since then. Now if he has not then he signed a really stupid deal. During the release of the movie and since then the sales of his Graphic novels have increased. It still is sold even in most comic book stores. Now if you are here to claim this would be the case even if the movie never was made then I would disagree. This is a point that cannot be won. Not only has Disney/Marvel helped in promoting his stories on the Winter Soldier, it has helped his career at conventions, and book signings worldwide. Now again if you don't think this is the case then you know nothing about business. If Brubaker is claiming that him that Disney hasn't helped him make money off that character then he is refusing to acknowledge the free publicity his work has received on the character for the last 10 years which has increased his clout as an author, and made him a bigger celebrity than he already was. If he is saying I haven't made a dime off of his winter soldier stories then he signed the worst contract of all time. Again and I will repeat this. I bought his winter soldier books after the movie. Do you seriously think I am the only one? That I am the sole naive dope that really didn't know much about the character when Disney made the movie I was the only one who said wow this is cool let me check out Brubakers books? His winter solider graphic novel based on his second run of the character hit the shelves in sept of 2014. The same year the movie came out. Now do you honestly think that thing sells the same if not for the movie? Don't deflect be honest?[/QUOTE]
No, you are avoiding what Brubaker has said based on your own suppositions, suppositions based on... nothing!

You do not know what kind of money Brubaker receives for reprints. He might not get any.

You don’t know what part of his fan base followed him from his work at Marvel.

You are making up these things, because they are not in the public record.

The only thing we know is Brubaker said he gets ZERO financial benefit from Winter Soldier being adapted by Marvel Studios. That’s the whole of the knowledge we have here.

You’re making all the rest of that up, about what working for Marvel has done for Brubaker’s career.

Brubaker has spoken. You can disbelieve him. Basically, you’re calling Brubaker a liar.

Next, please explain to me how Marvel treated Jack Kirby and his family so well.

The truth is comics including and especially Marvel have treated their creators like crap. We see from Brubaker’s comments this is still an issue, albeit probably not at the same level of basically breaking the law as Marvel used to do.

No one is claiming Marvel is stealing from Brubaker and no one is claiming he has been taken advantage of by Marvel as badly as all the past great creators were. He signed his deal with Marvel in the 21st century. He had the benefit of the fights creators before him, and after him, waged. All we are saying is, wouldn’t it be nice and ethical of Marvel to cut Brubaker in on the Winter Soldier action?

Another observation I have though is that if the fanboys are out defending Marvel so vociferously over this, you know Marvel has a new PR disaster over creator rights brewing with this.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;5493892]I would think they should. But not just for Brubaker but for everyone involved in the collaborative creative process in the past. But I also know that established media without required royalty payments is a draw for companies and they might seek out different properties with fewer royalty requirements.

We're signaling out Brubaker because he is the big name, but any story element that is borrowed is also deserving of compensation. Every design element used taken from the art as well. Brubaker was probably compensated at a better rate than many of the people involved.

I think Baron Zemo is another example. Are we compensating Roy Thomas and Tony Isabella? Are we compensating J.M. DiMatteis? I feel like Roger Stern is the one who really made the character interesting by bringing him to the Avengers as the head of the Masters of Evil and Kurt Buseik's Thunderbolts run really solidified the character. And I can guarantee Tony Isabella did not make anywhere near enough money off the character as Ed Brubaker made off The Winter Soldier. I'm also leaving off artists. I have no idea who designed the character. I'm assuming it was Mike Zeck, although that's far from certain. And the design is so derivative of Jack Kirby's design that maybe his estate should be compensated as well.

All of this sounds good. And if a studio made their creative decisions without financial considerations, it would be great. But it feels like we're going to trend closer to Agents of SHIELD and use lots of original characters that are reminiscent of comics characters to avoid compensating those original creators and I would hate that. I want to see my comics come to life in a new and interesting way but clearly a derivative work. Whenever the movies go for an original character when there's a clear comics choice, I feel that's a lost opportunity, but I also think fairness would dictate compensating many people for their past contributions if we're just doing it to be charitable.[/QUOTE]
Jack Kirby and maybe Stan Lee invented Baron Zemo, including his role in the Masters of Evil, which the same creative team also invented. All credit would go to those two creators in this case, and Marvel’s abysmal treatment of Kirby is well documented. However, Marvel settled with the Kirby estate and by all accounts, the Kirby heirs are finally happy. So, the estate of the creator of that particular character has been compensated, finally.

Although, hey, if Marvel would cut checks to Roy Thomas, Tony Isabella, J.M. DiMatteis, Roger Stern, Kurt Busiek and Mike Zeck for all their contributions to the Marvel universe, it would be a great thing for them to do that as well. I don’t think that’s charity. That’s fairly compensating people for their work.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;5493892]But I also know that established media without required royalty payments is a draw for companies and they might seek out different properties with fewer royalty requirements.[/quote]

This sentence is honestly mind-boggling. You are basically an advocate for sweatshops at this point. You don't care how things are made as long as you get the stuff.

This is beyond hypocrisy. You are basically saying that you want more MCU stuff and not only are you not bothered by creators not getting compensated you out and out admit that Disney-Marvel won't feel an incentive to do so if they weren't accessing IP that they can fully tap into without paying talent commensurate income.

Say what you want about the guilty liberal worried about sweatshops while using their iPhone and lounging in the sun, that's still a less ghastly sight than people claiming to be fans openly becoming full time gangsters.

At the very least, I might think it's time you change your username, associating yourself with a superhero who is a defender of justice and fights corruption is galling when you basically talk like the Kingpin.