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Diana's father
I get that it doesn't matter who the father is but rather how you raise your child. But in a sense why can't Diana have a father who isn't an abuser or rapist? In a sense you're are just having the same parent line as the rest of trinity's situation with their parent? WHy has Diana been a target? Doesn't that defeat Diana's origin? An abuser, rapist and a murderous wife defeat the point of Diana. Yes the Amazons raised her but even than Diana is a target and her mother gave herself to a rapist. She knows this. Why have sex with a rapist and an abuser, and a cheater? Why can't Diana earn her powers? Why can't Hippolyta just save a man and they fall in love? Why can't it be the happy origin?
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I choose "She doesn't need a father," but "regular person" works for me too. You know, the way Hal Jordan's father is a fantastic pilot who heroically sacrifices himself to save others, and Hal tries to live up to his example. And Hal Jordan's mother is a "regular person" whose profession I don't even know. (There is, of course, nothing wrong with being the single mother of three; in The So-Called Real World™, it's hard work and important. But in the heroic narrative of Hal Jordan, she is a tertiary and generic character with no discernible impact on his character arc.)
I could explicate this at greater length, but I would just be repeating myself. ([URL="https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/"]https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/[/URL])
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[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;3293584]I choose "She doesn't need a father," but "regular person" works for me too. You know, the way Hal Jordan's father is a fantastic pilot who heroically sacrifices himself to save others, and Hal tries to live up to his example. And Hal Jordan's mother is a "regular person" whose profession I don't even know. (There is, of course, nothing wrong with being the single mother of three; in The So-Called Real World™, it's hard work and important. But in the heroic narrative of Hal Jordan, she is a tertiary and generic character with no discernible impact on his character arc.)
I could explicate this at greater length, but I would just be repeating myself. ([URL="https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/"]https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/[/URL])[/QUOTE]
Thats several times worse than anything thats ever been given Diana or anyone close to her in terms of parentage.
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I've got no problem with Zeus; it's logical.
Why do people need to worry if ancient Greek mythology is [B][FONT=Century Gothic]politically correct[/FONT][/B] or not? :confused:
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[QUOTE=MajorHoy;3294042]I've got no problem with Zeus; it's logical.
Why do people need to worry if ancient Greek mythology is [B][FONT=Century Gothic]politically correct[/FONT][/B] or not? :confused:[/QUOTE]
Oh baby gotta break this into microscopic pieces.
1. Wonder Woman is inherently a political book.
2. Wonder Woman's inception was inspired by Greek Myth, not derived from it.
3. "Political correctness" is a suspicious topic to level and debate, and its invoker should always be a complicit in its dissection.
4. Context logic is different than theme logic.
5. People aren't worried about myth, they're worried about Wonder Woman.
6. People aren't worried.
7. Zeus is a problematic character, made powerful by a problematic paradigm.
8. Even simple consent is murky when one party is a deity.
There's more, obviously, but I'm on my way out the door.
As for me, my endpoints tend to align with Outside, but my I prefer to work through Bifrost's methodologies.
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She doesn't need one. This trope is weird. At this point, far too much time has passed to develop a relationship with a father figure significant enough to make any kind of noteworthy multimedia impact whatsoever.
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She doesn't have a father. She has a stranger who had something with her mum once upon a long time ago. Who happens to be Zeus.
So from my POV the poll should be multiple choice. Well, from my POV all polls should be, but that's another matter.
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I went with other God, because I think it should be Hercules (demigod, and became a God in most texts). He's the most logical choice as he's already heavily involved with the DCU Amazons and the real world myth the encounter is based upon is the tale Hippolyta is most well known for. We can also avoid the "Hera's pissed again" cliche, unless she's so petty that the bastards of Zeus's bastards are enough to get her riled up. He's also similarly out of the picture post-origin (and in one version is dead as a door nail), leaving Hippolyta to be the dominant parental figure in the narrative.
[QUOTE=Outside_85;3293863]Thats several times worse than anything thats ever been given Diana or anyone close to her in terms of parentage.[/QUOTE]
No, it really isn't. A sperm is still meeting an egg if her father is a normal dude and the clay birth is avoided. So that problem (if someone perceives it as such) is solved. The plus sides of a mortal man being her father means he doesn't dominate the narrative and define Diana based on who her father is, which is a trap they have fallen into numerous times with Zeus. And they'd probably do it with Hercules too, tbf.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3294371]
No, it really isn't. A sperm is still meeting an egg if her father is a normal dude and the clay birth is avoided. So that problem (if someone perceives it as such) is solved. The plus sides of a mortal man being her father means he doesn't dominate the narrative and define Diana based on who her father is, which is a trap they have fallen into numerous times with Zeus. And they'd probably do it with Hercules too, tbf.[/QUOTE]
You perceive Zeus as dad as being a problem, the story does not, the problem lies with you, not it.
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;3294403]You perceive Zeus as dad as being a problem, the story does not, the problem lies with you, not it.[/QUOTE]
The story can do whatever it wants, it doesn't mean it's beyond being criticized for the tropes (and some would argue cliches) it uses. No story is.
Should we say your problems with Doctor Bifrost's proposed idea of a mortal man being her father lie with you and not the potential story? You didn't really back up why that would be a terrible idea for her or anyone close to her.
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No daddy required. It worked just fine up until 2011.
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;3294403]You perceive Zeus as dad as being a problem, the story does not, the problem lies with you, not it.[/QUOTE]
That's a...very odd perspective for literary criticism (or any other kind of criticism). If someone has a criticism of a story, but the story does not have the same criticism of itself, therefore the problem is with the critic and the criticism should be dismissed?
I have issues with your take that have nothing to do with Zeus. But since your take doesn't have the same issues with itself, I suppose the problem lies with me and there's nothing to talk about...
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3294446]The story can do whatever it wants, it doesn't mean it's beyond being criticized for the tropes (and some would argue cliches) it uses. No story is.
Should we say your problems with Doctor Bifrost's proposed idea of a mortal man being her father lie with you and not the potential story? You didn't really back up why that would be a terrible idea for her or anyone close to her.[/QUOTE]
And you are advocating for a failed Jesus narrative.
My problems lie in the comparison to one of the greatest a-holes of comics outside of Trump parodies... making Diana even remotely related, even in spirit, to Jordan turns her into a soulless Barbie doll thanks now called Ivanka.
[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;3294610]That's a...very odd perspective for literary criticism (or any other kind of criticism). If someone has a criticism of a story, but the story does not have the same criticism of itself, therefore the problem is with the critic and the criticism should be dismissed?
I have issues with your take that have nothing to do with Zeus. But since your take doesn't have the same issues with itself, I suppose the problem lies with me and there's nothing to talk about...[/QUOTE]
People haven't had a problem with this type of story for several thousands of years, then along comes you felling all offended by Zeus, what makes you special in this case?
if that's the case you do an appalling job of saying otherwise, so perhaps you'd one day like to formulate it through something other than smoke signals from the arctic circle?
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[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;3293584]I choose "She doesn't need a father," [B]but "regular person" works for me[/B] too. [/quote]
I hadn't really considered this option before, but, yeah, I concur. Like, a totally regular, non-CBPH, non-magical, average joe.
[quote]You know, the way Hal Jordan's father is a fantastic pilot who heroically sacrifices himself to save others, and Hal tries to live up to his example. And Hal Jordan's mother is a "regular person" whose profession I don't even know. (There is, of course, nothing wrong with being the single mother of three; in The So-Called Real World™, it's hard work and important. But in the heroic narrative of Hal Jordan, she is a tertiary and generic character with no discernible impact on his character arc.)[/quote]
So, to be clear: in this scenario, Hippolyta would be akin to Hal's dad here, i.e. the heroic uber-parent. While Diana's regular joe dad would be akin to Hal's non-descript mom, yes? Except, both of Hal's parents are long dead AFAIK (or ..?), and Hippolyta has Alfred status (can't ever die for realsies), so here I would likewise keep Average Joe Dad alive but away from all the action most of the time with no chance of overshadowing Hippolyta or Diana (unlike Zeus).
I just realized I'm totally thinking of a still-living Rose Quartz and Greg Universe, parents of Steven Universe:
[IMG]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/d/d7/Rose_and_Greg.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160924044034[/IMG]
Yeah, if Diana's dad was as simple and nice and mortal (and as completely useless in battle) as Greg Universe, while Hippolyta remains as badass as Rose Quartz, I'd be down for that as Diana's parentage.
[quote]I could explicate this at greater length, but I would just be repeating myself. ([URL="https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/"]https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-paternal-narrative/[/URL])[/QUOTE]
I just read this. Very well said, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything in it.
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I mean if it were regular everyday joe I do think he should still be alive. That to the Gods he earned being immortal and lives with the Amazons. I do think it would be a nice change to his character when Diana comes home. I mean does her father being Zeus really rejected her from getting her powers? Why not have them earned by winning the contest? How should the average joe be?