Should We New52 Superman Fans Resign Ourselves to SuperDad, and, if so, How?

[QUOTE=Ascended;2030774]Well, the last five years weren't nothing if you enjoyed them.

I dont care how badly DC screws up today or tomorrow, I still have Morrison's run and Pak's run and the other issues and stories Ive enjoyed since the reboot. DC cant take those stories away from me no matter what they do.

Comics aren't about the destination, they're about the journey. If there was stuff you liked, then the last five years weren't a waste.

What comes next might be a missed opportunity, a failure to capitalize on obvious improvements or success, or a lot of other things. But that's what comes next, not what already happened. And really, given the level of desperation and short-sighted directions they're pulling out, Im just as glad Nuperman wont be a part of it. He suffered enough already.

If nothing else, think of the money we'll save because DC is driving us away with bad fan fiction and Dr. Manhattan and Superdad.[/QUOTE]

This is how I'm looking at it myself.

[QUOTE=BeefBourguignon;2029578]This massive boost to the constant negativity here is surprising to me. Have you not known for over a month now that New 52 Superman was dying and being replaced by pre-Flashpoint Supermn by the time of Rebirth? Why is it shocking now? :confused:[/QUOTE]

Because they might be stuck with it, and the most frequent posters here don't like that version of the character. The people who did, from what I can tell, got chased away a long time ago.

You see it here and there all over the board - how Byrne's reboot was a mistake, how the 2000s were awful, how much better Pre-Crisis is, how much New 52 reminds them of Pre-Crisis, and on and on. If there's any positive mention, it's a token mention of the Triangle Era, but that's usually followed with some sort of qualifier. Very few here take Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint on its own merits.

And now, there's a chance that this version could be back long-term, so there's another round of the lashing-out reaction.

[QUOTE=Ascended;2030774]

If nothing else, think of the money we'll save because DC is driving us away with bad fan fiction and Dr. Manhattan and Superdad.[/QUOTE]

And thank God Image exists. And Alan Moore. And he is still good.

[QUOTE=Ascended;2030774]Well, the last five years weren't nothing if you enjoyed them.

I dont care how badly DC screws up today or tomorrow, I still have Morrison's run and Pak's run and the other issues and stories Ive enjoyed since the reboot. DC cant take those stories away from me no matter what they do.

Comics aren't about the destination, they're about the journey. If there was stuff you liked, then the last five years weren't a waste.

What comes next might be a missed opportunity, a failure to capitalize on obvious improvements or success, or a lot of other things. But that's what comes next, not what already happened. And really, given the level of desperation and short-sighted directions they're pulling out, Im just as glad Nuperman wont be a part of it. He suffered enough already.

If nothing else, think of the money we'll save because DC is driving us away with bad fan fiction and Dr. Manhattan and Superdad.[/QUOTE]

YES.. Now they want to end their suffering in rebirth.. as clark kent..

Thanks n52 superman ... You were the superman who never expect to find, I expected to be disappointed when I started superman and
No, Superman was better than I thought, until now... Now, all is over.

[QUOTE=Myskin;2030826]And thank God Image exists. And Alan Moore. And he is still good.[/QUOTE]

That too.

Last time I dropped Superman I spent those years digging into older material. This time around I think I'll be picking up some of the older Lee/Kirby stuff from Marvel's early days, a fist full of WildStorm material I never purchased, and the missing issues from my Milestone collection.

[QUOTE=Truman Burbank;2030791]Because they might be stuck with it, and the most frequent posters here don't like that version of the character. The people who did, from what I can tell, got chased away a long time ago.

You see it here and there all over the board - how Byrne's reboot was a mistake, how the 2000s were awful, how much better Pre-Crisis is, how much New 52 reminds them of Pre-Crisis, and on and on. If there's any positive mention, it's a token mention of the Triangle Era, but that's usually followed with some sort of qualifier. Very few here take Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint on its own merits.

And now, there's a chance that this version could be back long-term, so there's another round of the lashing-out reaction.[/QUOTE]

Well, Im not going to apologize for my opinion, and if people left because of the opinions myself and other like-minded posters have, that's on them. Its not like we're out here accusing people of not being "real fans" or telling them they "dont get the character" or they're "sexists" or somesuch BS. I've yet to see anyone chased away with pitchforks and torches.

Personally, its not even Superdad that has me ready to leave. Yes, what you say applies to me pretty much across the board, but Superman as a father is something Ive always wanted to see (along with the beard, which is bitchin'), Jon has my interest, and in the early-mid 90's the line was running on a high point I wouldnt mind seeing return. Really, just looking at the broad strokes, this is a status quo Ive been waiting fifteen years to see.

What's pissed us off (well me anyway) is the manner in which DC has brought about these changes. Its not about any particular version. This is just not good storytelling. This isn't being respectful to the source material or the fans. This is just insulting, lazy, and shows that DC has no interest in long-form storytelling and are just chasing short-term gains. Its bad business, bad for consumer confidence, and Id be saying the same thing if they were bringing back the original Kal-L. Granted, if that were the case I might be [I]slightly [/I]more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but bottom line is DC has become incapable of telling good stories regardless of what version of Superman they're using. If they were rolling out Kal-L the stories would likely still be questionable as hell and the execution likely just as bad as what Nuperman has had the last year or two, and what Superdad had before him.

[QUOTE=Prime;2030703]I am mad because if any of this is true, the last 5 years where...nothing. All that money and time invested in a character I love means nothing. Superdad has done all he was going to do, he is safe. With Superman you still had so much to do. Sure, Superdad with a son would have been interesting, 10 years ago, now not so much. Especially how they did it, killing one Superman to replace him with the version that actually was the reason for the reboot. And now he might not even actually be real.[/QUOTE]

now you know how fans pre flashpoint felt lol, this is comics man. These things happen.

[QUOTE=Ascended;2031048]in the early-mid 90's the line was running on a high point I wouldnt mind seeing return. [/QUOTE]

Dude point me to some early 90's stuff. I was literally just born around then so I only ever did a "sweep" of the work done then.

What were some of your favorite issues? I just learned Millar had a run on the proper Superman books in the late 90's early 2000's (I think) did you ever check that out?

[QUOTE=Ascended;2030998]That too.

Last time I dropped Superman I spent those years digging into older material. This time around I think I'll be picking up some of the older Lee/Kirby stuff from Marvel's early days, a fist full of WildStorm material I never purchased, and the missing issues from my Milestone collection.[/QUOTE]

I approve. I've just bought the third Fantastic Four Omnibus. And I am waiting for the second volume of Moore's Providence. Life is better when you don't have to worry about Superman reboots.

Hey Superlad, Mark Millar did a bunch of issues of Superman Adventures that were fun stuff. If your a digital reader you can pick them up for 99 cents each.

I really enjoyed the Byrne stuff starting at the Man of Steel 6 issue mini then he did issues of Action until it went weekly and the main Superman title. after the events of that run it goes into exile which was fantastic I don't want to drop spoilers of why things are going on if you never read it. Lex Luther the unauthorized biography was a really cool deluxe format book as was the Odyssey.

I loved the issues with Maxima, Panic in the Sky, a couple of the Armageddon annuals were cool just off the top of my head.

The triangle era people speak of was Jurgens Roger Stern and Louise Simonson and while each book had it's own feel they all acknowledged the events of the others and the A plot would string through them while they all explored their own B plot.

No, I can't. And the reason isn't what you think. What DC is doing is basically saying that these characters are interchangeable. That you can swap one out for the other and the fans will just accept it no matter what they do. I don't like being told that something I like no longer "counts" and that I'll just have to lump it if they swap him out for someone else. To give you an example, the [I]Rebirth[/I] solicitation material shows a black Kid Flash. Now, since Wally is in the [I]Rebirth[/I] book, we can probably assume that whoever this is isn't him. But what if it is? What if the "old" Wally gets killed or something after giving the old fans a taste of him again and this new Kid Flash is this universes Wally West (which, given the TV show, would actually make a bit of sense)? How many Flash fans would be cool with that? I keep going over this but it's probably the one thing that bugs me the most about the New 52, if I have any real problems with it at all: A lot of good characters lost their histories for the New 52. The JSA no longer exists. Conner Kent no longer exists. Jade and Obsidian no longer exist. A whole slew of legacy characters no longer exist. Now, they are basically just saying those people were wiped out of existence for nothing. Superman gets to come back but no one else does. Those characters lost their histories for nothing.

I honestly believe that Superman needed a clean slate prior to the New 52. More than anyone else. And I was willing to accept having these characters removed from history for that. Now, it just feels like they "died" in vain. Conner was one of my favorite characters in the post-Crisis universe. Ironically, right behind the JSA. Now, not only do I not get a cleaned up Superman, I don't get the trade off either. I honestly don't know if I will walk away from DC forever. I will probably still get the [I]Earth One[/I] books just because I've been collecting those. And [I]Injustice[/I] for the same reason. But I have no interest in the mainstream stuff. I suppose there's always the back issue bins!

[QUOTE=superduperman;2031154]I don't like being told that something I like no longer "counts" [/QUOTE]

That's basically the new 52, post-crisis, and reboots in general, I feel.

Eventually the DC multiverse is going to have to be the "main character" that goes through character arcs and growth. Nix Uotan the super judge/god of heroes is gonna have to be the main protagonist. Pretty soon all the refugee characters left and forgotten around the multiverse are gonna be a part of the Operation Justice Incarnate lead by President Superman (this is likely how he'll spend his retirement years after stepping down from office lol).

It's the only way to make sense of all of this nonsense, and I'd be down for it honestly. Seriously, heroes from OJI going undercover and infiltrating budding new worlds, and keeping them safe while cultivating heroes. The ultimate enemy always out there, and always finding new ways to make our heroes crappy and existence meaningful at the same time.

At this point this is the only way out outside of yet another ill thought out reboot stunt that won't make them seem dumb. This is that "we knew what we were doing the whole time" scapegoat that Morrison handcrafted them.

[QUOTE=Superlad93;2031084]Dude point me to some early 90's stuff. I was literally just born around then so I only ever did a "sweep" of the work done then.

What were some of your favorite issues? I just learned Millar had a run on the proper Superman books in the late 90's early 2000's (I think) did you ever check that out?[/QUOTE]

Honestly man? I devoured everything from Death-Return to the Cadmus Wars finale in Action 700, and I couldnt point to anything that really stood out because it was all solid quality. At least I thought so at the time; most of those issues I have not pulled out of storage in ten years, so Ive no idea how well they've aged.

But Action 700 was pretty huge to me; it was a level of destruction porn I had not yet seen (outside of stuff like Zero Hour that was so big it held no meaning) and it resolved subplots that had been going for a few years, as well as wrapping up Lex Luthor's status quo from the time.

Let's see.....I couldnt tell you issue numbers or trade names, but there was the story where Clark's powers overload beyond his ability to control them....the whole Conduit fiasco.....probably the best of them all was the Bizarro revision, which to this day remains my favorite Bizarro story ever. Well...Pak's stand alone issue might be my new favorite, but its close.

Kessel's Superboy series was really damn strong for a long time. There was an issue early on (issue 4 I think) that had Superboy's manager producing a Superboy cartoon in the style of the 90's Batman series, which was a lot of fun. PAD's Supergirl was probably one of my favorite titles until around issue 50 when it started to get really weird (like, were-horse angel weird). Steel was a decent book but its best days were also its last, when....I wanna say it was Priest, came on and saw the book to its finale.

I'd say just start at Death of Superman and keep going until a bad pastiche of a conservative named Dirk Armstrong (or something) joins the Planet. When that guy shows up it heralds the beginning of the downfall, as the supporting cast begin to crowd Superman out of his own books and the creative teams start to run out of ideas, which lead to the Electric Superman saga and the Red/Blue redux.

[QUOTE=Myskin;2031137]I approve. I've just bought the third Fantastic Four Omnibus. And I am waiting for the second volume of Moore's Providence. Life is better when you don't have to worry about Superman reboots.[/QUOTE]

Im thinking I need to dig into some early FF stuff for the Black Panther. Ive read a lot of his older solo stuff but never the original FF stories. Never been able to get into the FF, to my mind their best contributions have been everything introduced in the books [I]other [/I]than the FF themselves; T'Challa, Galactus, the Negative Zone, Inhumans, Namor, etc.....compared to all that, the FF have always felt rather bland to me.

[QUOTE=Tony;2031146]Hey Superlad, Mark Millar did a bunch of issues of Superman Adventures that were fun stuff. If your a digital reader you can pick them up for 99 cents each.

I really enjoyed the Byrne stuff starting at the Man of Steel 6 issue mini then he did issues of Action until it went weekly and the main Superman title. after the events of that run it goes into exile which was fantastic I don't want to drop spoilers of why things are going on if you never read it. Lex Luther the unauthorized biography was a really cool deluxe format book as was the Odyssey.

I loved the issues with Maxima, Panic in the Sky, a couple of the Armageddon annuals were cool just off the top of my head.

The triangle era people speak of was Jurgens Roger Stern and Louise Simonson and while each book had it's own feel they all acknowledged the events of the others and the A plot would string through them while they all explored their own B plot.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much for the reply!

I've absolutely devoured Millar's Superman Adventures books, and I honestly could have read those (with more consistent art and writing freedom) forever. So much fun.

I'll take some time out and checkout all of these books. A lot of them have been on my list for years now, but the "ew it's old" stigma was keeping me away, I'm ashamed to say. Now, I don't really care and am more open minded.