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[QUOTE=chicago_bastard;5530694]I guess leading the Avengers for more than 50 issues doesn't qualify. Looks even worse compared to the huge number of two issues that is basically the complete Avengers stint of the Hulk prior to the movie.
Why not just admit it's simply your personal preference, and instead try these mental gymnastics to somehow justify "objectively" what in the end is just a subjective opinion?[/QUOTE]She's a spy. She's an assassin. Widow's "leadership" was a group of reservists, who didn't exactly fall in line while all of the main team was on Counter-Earth after Onslaught. It's not just my opinion. There's a reason the majority of the time she was ever on the main roster was movie synergy. The rest of the time she's been a reservist. Her one stint as an actual leader? Wholly forgettable and with a group where the biggest issue they had was a love triangle between Sersi, Black Knight, and Crystal. Yeah now there's a bunch with a lot of mental stability and heroics...
And for the record, no Hulk doesn't belong on the team either.
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[QUOTE=gurkle;5530833]Jim Shooter's storyline about Hank was partly done to separate Hank and Jan so Jan could become a bigger part of the team and get popular on her own, and that did happen; it's too bad that he made Hank nigh-unusable to do it (much like Steve Englehart turned Quicksilver into a psychotic bigot when he wanted to build Wanda up on her own).[/QUOTE]
The point is that Hank was barely in use before that and he had 10 years to make his case. So it was a character who was fair game, and everything in that story logically builds off and riffs off Hank's previous stories. It's totally consistent to the character.
[QUOTE=Mik;5530851]Hank also built Ultron,[/quote]
Who destroyed and annihilated the town of Slorenia making Hank Pym culpable for genocide, and a death toll bigger than any major villain.
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[QUOTE=Oberon;5530901]I wouldn't mind that.
I'm not up to current, but the last I recall, they had almost/semi rekindled, Jan and Hank. There was even (years ago) a Christmas type special that was maybe just a little innuendo like, hinting at size changing and romantic matters, ahem. But did something change with that?
Was that around the era where Hank was replaced by a skrull, I remember that happened but something else to or it was off...
So what and how is the current status of Hank and Jan if you please.[/QUOTE]
Last I saw them together was Avengers Vol 3 #71. They were in Vegas and Hank made the bonehead move or proposing. Messed up thing about that issue....Whirlwind was hiring hookers to dress up in Wasp costumes and killing them. Oh...and...giant, naked Hank. You would think the guy would at least wear unstable molecule drawers.
Not sure if this was Hank Hank or Skrull Hank at the time. Personally I think they both need to move on. No more of this on again off again crap that writers keep doing with characters.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5530911]The point is that Hank was barely in use before that and he had 10 years to make his case. So it was a character who was fair game, and everything in that story logically builds off and riffs off Hank's previous stories. It's totally consistent to the character.[/QUOTE]
I agree that Shooter's take on Hank is a plausible take on the character. Right from the moment Shooter started writing "Avengers" he saw Hank as someone who is not really cut out to be a hero and is dangerously unstable, which makes sense considering that he had a superhero identity taken on when he was literally out of his mind, that his marriage to the Wasp began during that period of insanity, and that he built the Avengers' deadliest enemy. He was just looking at what previous writers had done and finding his own take on what they created, and it fit.
I just generally don't approve of making characters so far gone that it's hard for them to ever be portrayed as heroes again. I feel that way about Wanda so I understand where Hank's fans are coming from with the infamous Trial issue. It is true that Hank's heel turn under Shooter was far more built up than Wanda's under Bendis (for that matter, Wanda's anti-hero behavior in her show made more sense than in the comics).
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5530911]Who destroyed and annihilated the town of Slorenia making Hank Pym culpable for genocide, and a death toll bigger than any major villain.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't saying Hank's legacy was all good, just a major part of Avengers history. Although Ultron made that decision himself
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5530911]Who destroyed and annihilated the town of Slorenia making Hank Pym culpable for genocide, and a death toll bigger than any major villain.[/QUOTE]
Thanos? Probably Red Skull?
Although I know Hank created Ultron but he's still a sentient robot who decided of his own accord to wipe out humanity because of his daddy issues.
[QUOTE=gurkle;5530931]I just generally don't approve of making characters so far gone that it's hard for them to ever be portrayed as heroes again. I feel that way about Wanda so I understand where Hank's fans are coming from with the infamous Trial issue. It is true that Hank's heel turn under Shooter was far more built up than Wanda's under Bendis (for that matter, Wanda's anti-hero behavior in her show made more sense than in the comics).[/QUOTE]
Was Pymtron our Disassembled moment? Are we just waiting for a Children's Crusade led by Nadia to bring Hank back?
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Making Hank and Janet older mentor characters wouldn't of been so bad if they were used and acknowledged more in the MCU.
Douglas, Fishburne and Lilly have both talked about being open to appearing in more Marvel movies or shows if they are asked.
Peyton Reed has talked about how he would love to do a prequal movie or Disney plus show with Hank and Janet if given the chance.
The longer flashback scenes in both Ant-Man movies with Hank and Janet were cut back. Hank Pym is rarely acknowledge outside the Ant-Man films. Howard Stark and Bruce Banner are referenced at the science school Peter attends in Spider-Man Homecoming but not Pym despite the fact he seemingly founded a successful tech company in the MCU. I get that Pym became somewhat reclusive for a while after Janet disappeared and his Ant-Man career wasn't public knowledge but you think he might still be a notable figure as a scientist and businessman.
Hopefully Janet gets he dues in the third movie. Decades in the Quantum realm seems to have given her some new interesting powers.
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-Not even comic book fans and writers could wrap their head around Hank slapping Janet. Understanding that it wasn't his normal behavior and was borne out of a genuine mental illness is not a tactic approval of domestic abuse.
-The combination of the slap in 616 and his behavior in Ultimate Marvel rendered Hank radioactive as a character.
-It sucks that Janet was collateral though.
-Centering Scott gave Marvel an every man protagonist when they didn't have Spider-Man yet.
-Setting up Hank and Jan as retired heroes opened the possibility of heroes who existed between Cap and IM. This would pave the way for Captain Marvel, Goliath and Isaiah Bradley.
-Marvel was doing badly when it came to representation during that time, having Hank as the lead would have been a PR nightmare.
All in all, I think they played their cards right based on what they had at the time. If there is anything I would change, it would be get Edgar Wright off the film earlier so they could have polished up the final product more. Oh and I would have taken a page out of the Ultimate Universe and cast Asian actors for Janet and Hope even though I love seeing Pfifer in another superhero movie.
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Let's not act like Hank was the only one acting sketchy around that time. Jan herself took advantage of Hank's mental issues to get what she wanted out of him....marriage.
Not a bash on the characters...but on the writers and what they thought would be a good storyline.
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[QUOTE=Chris0013;5531583]Let's not act like Hank was the only one acting sketchy around that time. [/quote]
Hank WAS always the most sketchy guy in that relationship.
The entire relationship was built on old-fashioned romantic melodrama that by the late-70s was provably toxic to everyone. Janet was several years younger than Hank, and he fell in love with her because of her resemblance to his first wife Maria. That stuff was seen as fine in earlier romantic stories but was seen as creepy and a foundation for an unhealthy relationship, and rightly so.
[quote]Jan herself took advantage of Hank's mental issues to get what she wanted out of him....marriage.[/quote]
People have trotted this out and it's total hogwash. Hank had one of his ego-driven breakdowns about how his alter-ego Ant-Man was lame and so decided to make himself Yellowjacket (aka Poochie) and then kidnaped Janet. Obviously Janet was the one who was in danger and she was trying to handle it the best way she could. She was kidnapped after all.
[quote]Not a bash on the characters...but on the writers and what they thought would be a good storyline.[/QUOTE]
The point is the marriage of Hank and Janet happened years before the slap, and Hank as a character was made into a joke and an identity-chasing walking parody of mid-life crises well before under Roy Thomas' run and so on.
So again Shooter's story was absolutely logical and consistent to what was established. He surveyed the land, noticed that Ant-Man was now Scott Lang, Hank was hardly in use as a major superhero, The Wasp was more popular and interesting in group storylines, and he figured that Hank could play a role as the "cautionary tale" superhero, the guy whose personal hangups are so out of control that next to him "Parker Luck" Spider-Man looks like a prince.
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[QUOTE=John Venus;5531523]-Not even comic book fans and writers could wrap their head around Hank slapping Janet. Understanding that it wasn't his normal behavior and was borne out of a genuine mental illness is not a tactic approval of domestic abuse.
-The combination of the slap in 616 and his behavior in Ultimate Marvel rendered Hank radioactive as a character.
-It sucks that Janet was collateral though.
-Centering Scott gave Marvel an every man protagonist when they didn't have Spider-Man yet.
-Setting up Hank and Jan as retired heroes opened the possibility of heroes who existed between Cap and IM. This would pave the way for Captain Marvel, Goliath and Isaiah Bradley.
-Marvel was doing badly when it came to representation during that time, having Hank as the lead would have been a PR nightmare.
All in all, I think they played their cards right based on what they had at the time. If there is anything I would change, it would be get Edgar Wright off the film earlier so they could have polished up the final product more. Oh and I would have taken a page out of the Ultimate Universe and cast Asian actors for Janet and Hope even though I love seeing Pfifer in another superhero movie.[/QUOTE]
Um, do yo mean Marvel was doing bad in the comics with representation, or in the movies?
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5531605]Hank WAS always the most sketchy guy in that relationship.
The entire relationship was built on old-fashioned romantic melodrama that by the late-70s was provably toxic to everyone. Janet was several years younger than Hank, and he fell in love with her because of her resemblance to his first wife Maria. That stuff was seen as fine in earlier romantic stories but was seen as creepy and a foundation for an unhealthy relationship, and rightly so.
People have trotted this out and it's total hogwash. Hank had one of his ego-driven breakdowns about how his alter-ego Ant-Man was lame and so decided to make himself Yellowjacket (aka Poochie) and then kidnaped Janet. Obviously Janet was the one who was in danger and she was trying to handle it the best way she could. She was kidnapped after all. [/QUOTE]
Hank was in the middle of a breakdown, Jan knew it was Hank, and she took advantage of that situation instead of doing the responsible thing and trying to get him the help he needed.
But she is neither the first...nor the last...character to be written doing sketchy stuff.
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At least it seems like Whedon tried to put Wasp (Janet) in the first Avengers movie according to some 2012 news
[B]Whedon will be the first to admit it almost didn't work. There was a version of the script, back when johansson wasn't involved, that featured a female superhero named the wasp. Whedon had to scrap that script, and was making changes to his final version even as the effects people were starting work on the 40-minute battle that closes the movie. "trying to figure out the way you want to introduce all those characters, that was stuff we were still tweaking in the edit," says whedon.
Comic Book Movie reports that last year Whedon had made a doubtful comment on his initial plan to include van Dyne, saying, "I tried to write her in, but I could not make it work."[/B]
[B]Source[/B]: [URL="https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.syfy.com/syfywire/joss_whedon_reveals_why_h%3famp"]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.syfy.com/syfywire/joss_whedon_reveals_why_h%3famp[/URL]
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5530911] and a death toll bigger than any major villain.[/QUOTE]
Talk about hyperbole. You know Galactus exists right? Celestials. Beyonders. Cassandra Nova destroyed Genosha. Dr. Doom destroyed an entire alternate reality out of sheer pettiness.
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[QUOTE=Oberon;5530678]Well as R. Jack says, Antman was never a major character, however
he held a series, Tales to Astonish, before the Avengers/close and in context of the very early days of Marvel, was an important character.
He was overshadowed by nearly everything afterwards; hence the changing of identities and such.
By the time of the late '70s or so when this wife beating took place, was around the time of David's treatment of Iron Man as recovering alcoholic.
I read them back then; young adult, but now I wonder if David would have tried to do a similar thing and redeem Hank, but Shooter or other editorial stopped it.[/QUOTE]
They did do a lot to redeem Hank in the West Coast Avengers series. Jan an him had a long heartfelt talk and Hank apoligized for everything that went down. Hank was in a very good head space as he was just Dr. Pym then and not a secret identity. The problem came latter when bad writers came on board and decided to dredge up that old incedent again and treat it like it was Hank's whole character, and treating it like the slap happened yesterday and not over 2 decades ago. Between the one two shot of Millar and Austen Hank was dragged not through the mud but through a whole ocean of shit and has never been able to shake the stink those two hacks put on him.
