[QUOTE=Mistah K88;4803673]You know... I don't think we've had a take on Kingpin where Richard continuously tries to undermine his father like he did in comics. I do think the Fisk family drama would be interesting enough for a film.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Especially if it followed the first ark of Bendis’ Daredevil, where Richard conspires to kill his dad, and then his mother kills him. Would be great if played slowly and watching the family crumblez
[QUOTE=Mistah K88;4803673]You know... I don't think we've had a take on Kingpin where Richard continuously tries to undermine his father like he did in comics. I do think the Fisk family drama would be interesting enough for a film.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=your_name_here;4803682]Agreed. Especially if it followed the first ark of Bendis’ Daredevil, where Richard conspires to kill his dad, and then his mother kills him. Would be great if played slowly and watching the family crumblez[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that would be an excellent organized crime/family psychodrama.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4803445]Can there be a "Joker" Type with a Spider-Man villain? My actual definitive answer is in the spectrum that stretches from "[I][U]Not Sure[/U][/I] to [I][U]Maybe[/U][/I] and [I][U]Meh[/U][/I]"
If by "Joker" type we mean
-- A movie about a supervillain where the hero is peripheral to marginal.
-- A movie about a supervillain who still the ends the story as a villain rather than an anti-hero (a la Venom or for that matter Suicide Squad, or some of the other stuff people are pitching here like Superior Otto)
Then my offer is to adapt Nick Spencer's cult series, "The Superior Foes of Spider-Man" which centers on C-D List villains among Spidey's rogues gallery and is a Tarantino-Ritchie movie with NY supervillains instead of London gangsters. Spencer makes the narrative work, and he doesn't make the bad guys redeemable at the end. Understandable yes, compelling certainly, empathetic, to a point. But definitely not redeemable.
My feelings is that some stuff is more likelier than others. I am not saying Superior Foes is likely. Stuff like a Kingpin solo movie, or a Goblin solo movie, or even a solo Sinister Six movie with Keaton's Vulture in charge is perhaps likelier than that but that's readymade material for a "Joker-type film on a Spider-Man character". But stuff like Warren/Gwen, yeah that I think is just really remote and not especially interesting as a concept.
That actually was a legit complaint and issue during the production of that movie.
-- Martin Scorsese read the script and consulted over it but ultimately passed because he felt that the ending where the guy the audience came to know as Arthur Fleck actually becomes Joker (TM of Warner/DC) was something he just couldn't wrap his head around and make work.
-- Joaquin Phoenix was okay with ending as Joker but he didn't like the presence of Thomas Wayne and other DC stuff and wanted it to be entirely standalone.
The reason ultimately is that Todd Philips thought he could make a R-Rated low-budget movie about mental illness for a wide audience if he put clown makeup and a purple suit into the mix. And it worked. Whether it should have or will ultimately make a positive difference remains to be seen.
I personally don't think the movie worked. Alan Moore said that The Killing Joke was an attempt to put believable psychology behind a supervillain origin story, and provide clarity for Joker and Batman's relationship, but that didn't work because ultimately Joker can't really change, it's not a real possibility for him because the character is a gimmicky villain for Batman to punch now and again. So you don't really get any tragic catharsis for the loss of "the man Joker once was and could have been". In the case of Joker 2019, at the end when Arthur becomes Joker, it's presented as almost like a triumphant apotheosis...that dance down the stairs, that scene where he joins the rioters and smears blood on his face with a smile, him killing a shink and walking around Arkham to the tune of Sinatra...that's basically classic Joker, and the way the narrative frames it is that Arthur has become his best self. Joker 2019 is not a movie that believes or is interested in curing people with mental illness. Neither is The Killing Joke, and where Moore was self-conscious and managed to redeem it with that amazing "two guys in a lunatic asylum joke" that Batman also laughs to, we don't get that relief in Joker 2019.[/QUOTE]
If you didn't care for [I]Joker[/I], one way to think about the question is whether someone can do a Joker-type movie done right, or the type of film someone who wrote a positive review of [I]Joker [/I]thought they were seeing.
The main criteria is something that focuses on one character, typically an antagonist, and seems to belong in a different genre than the typical superhero movie. It doesn't have to be a homage to[I] Taxi Driver[/I] or [I]King of New York[/I]; it could be similar to completely different movies ([I]The Fly/ An American Werewolf in London[/I] with Curt Connors, [I]Carrie[/I] with Doctor Octopus) or its own type of thing.
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4804365]If you didn't care for [I]Joker[/I], one way to think about the question is whether someone can do a Joker-type movie done right, or the type of film someone who wrote a positive review of [I]Joker [/I]thought they were seeing.[/quote]
I don't care for the movie that got made, but I still like the concept of Joker 2019 (i.e. a low-budget, non-continuity, character-driven take on a villain). I just don't think the movie executed it well. The idea of a solo movie on Joker definitely had potential on paper, it's just that I think the movie took the weakest and least interesting approach.
[quote]The main criteria is something that focuses on one character, typically an antagonist, and seems to belong in a different genre than the typical superhero movie. It doesn't have to be a homage to[I] Taxi Driver[/I] or [I]King of New York[/I]; it could be similar to completely different movies ([I]The Fly/ An American Werewolf in London[/I] with Curt Connors, [I]Carrie[/I] with Doctor Octopus) or its own type of thing.[/QUOTE]
You are right that it doesn't have to be a homage to gritty '70s movies. I think the main thing is that villains have their own themes and concepts. One advantage that Spider-Man villains usually have is that the majority of them aren't insane even in the comic-book case that Joker is. And not all their stories are about insanity. Like Norman Osborn is crazy but the best stories with him deal with the subtext of capitalism and WASP hegemony. Like a Mysterio movie can be a take on low-budget movies about making movies, i.e. [I]Ed Wood, Living in Oblivion, Bowfinger, Dolemite is My Name, The Disaster Artist[/I] with Mysterio starting out as a film student with dreams of making his own Star Wars and working in VFX. He provides stellar work for major hollywood studios but is underpaid, laid-off and his studio shuts down (which happens to many real life VFX people) and ultimately his screenplay pitch for a space opera about the Dark Lord Mysterio becomes his alter ego.
Another movie to consider is David Cronenberg's SCANNERS which is an original science-fiction story but is basically a superhero v. supervillain story and one sequence is basically an Electro movie.
You could do a pretty good movie about Sandman, I'd play his sand abilities more as body horror though.
A story like “Flowers for the Rhino” as a movie could be interesting, although it would be hard to establish Rhino as a character before actually doing the main story.
... probably a way to do it but the perception would be, "why"? especially if the choice was made to make it rated R.
the most immediate comparison is Green Goblin/Norman Osborn. I suppose you have certain topics like science gone wrong, corporate espionage, etc.; but how to handle it without delving into the greater Marvel Universe? who knows..
[QUOTE=blackspidey2099;4805385]A story like “Flowers for the Rhino” as a movie could be interesting, although it would be hard to establish Rhino as a character before actually doing the main story.[/QUOTE]
This kind of story could be included in a 'Superior Foes of Spider-Man' movie.
i don't see spider-man villains (except Venom) being appropriate for this kind of treatment. i could see someone like The Hood being captivating as a big screen protagonist. but that's because he was introduced in a way that allowed for that kind of storytelling. someone like Norman Osborn's story isn't as simply told.
If I was pitching screenplays to Sony, here would be my top three.
[B]The Vulture[/B]- Reimagines Adrian Toomes as the bad guy in a[I] Cape Fear[/I] style revenge drama. The main difference is that the murderer hunting down the people who have wronged him can fly.
[B]Octavius[/B]- A [I]Carrie [/I]type story of a socially awkward scientist who gains power after a terrible accident, and uses it to try to make the world respect him.
[B]Hobgoblin[/B]- Set in the world of the Raimi films, this is a superhero origin gone bad. Spider-Man hasn't been seen in over a decade. Industrialist Roderick Kingsley finds Norman Osborn's arsenal, and repurposes it for himself, briefly considering a go as a superhero, before he starts wiping out the opposition. A potential complication may occur when Mayor J. Jonah Jameson allows a scientist to create a new superhero to take on the Hobgoblin, except the Scorpion has other plans.
They could easily do it with Electro and definitely with Kingpin.
[QUOTE=TheRay;4891111]They could easily do it with Electro and definitely with Kingpin.[/QUOTE]
Kingpin definitely. It could be a standard crimelord origin story with occasional superheroes/ supervillains.
How would an Electro solo film go?
i say Venom even though they have a movie like that but they could make a better one(not a remake)
[QUOTE=Scott Taylor;4800111]Joker has to do with mental illness, and I think thats the connection to the general movie-going audience. So any film with a Spider-Man villain will have to seek a similar type of connection.
The lizard did come to mind, sold as a Jekyll and Hyde movie. Just to bring some familiarity to the overall theme. Green Goblin is likewise a Jekyll and Hyde. Hobgoblin too as well as Venom.
Maybe someone like Doc Ock? Science is in the news a lot these days and it could be approached from the standpoint of mental illness, similar to how Joker was done. Otto did have a mishap that caused him to lose it a bit, after all. Even though he kept his brilliant mind. He also had an abusive background, depending on what origin story you read.[/QUOTE]
Actually Dr. Octopus year one is pretty much the Joker in Spider-mans universe.
I think Foolkiller could make for a great movie. I'm not sure if you'd consider him a Spider-man character or not, but the first time I was exposed to him was in a Spider-man story so I'm going to count him.
I know there's been a bunch of different ones over the years, but the general idea of a person that kills those he considers "fools" has lots of potential, especially in todays world of shady celebrities and social media.
On top of that, he has two catch phrases that are almost perfect for movies.
"Live a poem, or die a fool," feels like it would as a great character tagline much like Joker's "Why so serious".
Taking the idea from another Foolkiller, the image of a Fool tarrot card left with the message "are you?" feels like a nice movie poster teaser.