I like Spiderman. He's a mix of both superman and batman.
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I like Spiderman. He's a mix of both superman and batman.
[QUOTE=Sutekh;5573100]There is usually some sort of crappy behavior from the victim of the super-bullying to make it seem like they 'deserve it,' but yeah, it shows up in the first Spider-Man movie, where Peter ends up humiliating Flash in the hallway (oh, but Flash was a bully himself, so I guess it's okay to bully bullies?), or in Man of Steel where Clark mangles the logging-trucker's truck in 'get him back' for harassing a waitress ('cause gosh, them ladies can't stand up for themselves).
I don't really like scenes that make me want to be complicit in or approving of jerkish or bullying behavior.
(That said, I'm more tolerant of that sort of thing from people like Batman, the Punisher or Daredevil, who aren't super-strong or tough, and kind of need to inspire fear as part of their schtick. But then I also recognize that I am not the target audience for those characters, either. It's when Superman or Spider-Man or, my least favorite example, Ultimate Captain America, are portrayed as super-bullies. That's just tarnishing the silverware, IMO.)[/QUOTE]
That's the thing though. Bullies who fight bullies and monsters who destroy monsters [I]are[/I] the most popular characters in our pop-culture today. A guy who beats the crap out of criminals is a lot more relatable than the guy with the powers of a God who'll give them less than a slap on the wrist. Because most of us, given a chance, would want to do what Batman or Daredevil does. Very few of us would show the restraint of a Superman or even Captain America (and let's face it, Cap is [I]more[/I] than ready to use his fists if he needs to).
I've been re-reading the Golden Age Superman stories lately, and I relate to that version of the character way more than most later interpretations. Because he has power and he's not afraid to use force to [I]get shit done[/I]. I don't approve of [I]all[/I] his actions in those stories, but he's clearly not a guy who's interested in sitting (or floating) around being a paragon and supposedly 'inspiring' people. Hell, I'd argue that those early Superman stories gave us the blueprint for the versions of characters like Batman and Daredevil who are so beloved today in pop-culture.
[QUOTE=Midnight_v;5573846]<---- This.
Its all just for appearances.... Superman Isn't "A Guy" at all.
For reference, take The Martian Manhunter he has this line where its like "Two aliens come to earth and in the end you just chose the one that looks like you"
That's it. He "Looks" like you and so people identify w/him and give him this weird " identify cause he's going through the motions" but... really?
He's not human at all.[/QUOTE]We see Superman differently, which is okay.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5574023]Maybe I'm alone in this, but I think I connect with fictional characters on a primal level first. Then I try to rationalize why I feel that way about them. But it's that immediate connection that relates me to them--not the rationalizations.
I know exactly what I felt as a little boy when I saw Batman on the T.V. for the first time. It was more excitement than my little body could contain--I was near to bursting with the energy I felt inside me upon seeing this guy in cape, cowl and trunks. All at once I was overcome and in awe and knew I had found something that went deep into my soul. I have never forgotten that feeling.[/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying. Still, it can change.
At about five or six, I simultaneously encountered reruns of the Adam West [I]Batman[/I] TV show and O'Neil's and Adams' comics Batman, and the two branded me for life. However, about the time the Batgod depictions began, I lost interest in Batman, feeling like that was too far away from my interpretation of what the character was supposed to be all about. It didn't help that he seemed to go from grim and determined to ruthlessly obsessed.
On the other hand, I'd never been able to get into Superman because I encountered him mainly through reprints of the early Silver Age stuff, which I didn't much enjoy at all. Then I found some of his early Golden Age stuff, and that did interest me. Timm's toon poured gasoline on it (although I was less enthused about his use in the JL toon). Mainly though, I began warming to the character as writers began giving attention (or as I began noticing their attention) to Superman as a compassionate soul. I began looking for that in earlier depictions, and really began to warm to the character.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5573811]Your two examples don't work.
Peter did not bully Flash, he was attacked and defended himself. He even specifically tells Flash he doesn't want to fight and MJ specifically tells Flash to leave Peter alone. Flash was humiliated because his victim had the means to fight him off.
Clark trashing that guy's truck is miniscule compared to the trucker's implied repeated sexual harassment of women (not to mention your implication that sexual harassment should go unpunished or ignored because the ladies should "stand up for themselves").
Are there examples of Superman and Spider-Man behaving like bullies? Yes. Examples of the former can easily he found in the Silver Age or arguably even the final scene of Superman 2, which I'm surprised you didn't mention. And excusing Batman and Daredevil betrays a double standard since using fear and intimidation to get what you want is far more the mark of a bully than self-defense or retribution for a victim. The examples you sited are not only inaccurate but they imply we should have more sympathy for the bullies as opposed to their victims.[/QUOTE]
I can recall Superman taking bad guys up into the clouds during the Bronze Age and then threatening to drop them. Nothing boy scout about him back then! :D
[QUOTE=Midnight_v;5573846]<---- This.
Its all just for appearances.... Superman Isn't "A Guy" at all.
For reference, take The Martian Manhunter he has this line where its like "Two aliens come to earth and in the end you just chose the one that looks like you"
That's it. He "Looks" like you and so people identify w/him and give him this weird " identify cause he's going through the motions" but... really?
He's not human at all.[/QUOTE]
Bruce is only human in the most technical of manners. Everything about him is so far removed from plausibility he's basically as much a fabrication as Clark. No amount of hard work can turn anyone into Batman. He's also a natural super genius, omniglot, mastered every forensic and super science, a master practitioner of every martial art, has unlimited wealth that is inherited and renewed ethically and his body has an infinite capacity for recovery without wearing down or scarring in any way that would incriminate him in standard clothing.
Neither of them are plausible, but at the very least Clark does things more akin to us daily than Batman, even if Clark imposes them on himself. Bruce uses his vast resources to avoid doing all that. Bruce is a great character and relatable in his own way, but he's done everything he can do ensure he is as far removed from his humanity as possible.
As for not having to earn his rent, the only time that's been a thing is when Batman buys his building so I don't think it helps the argument here.
Clark's human in just about every way that matters.
[QUOTE=Robanker;5574736]Bruce is only human in the most technical of manners. Everything about him is so far removed from plausibility he's basically we much a fabrication as Clark. No amount of hard work can turn anyone into Batman. He's also a natural super genius, omniglot, mastered every forensic and super science, a master practitioner of every martial art, has unlimited wealth that is acquired ethically and his body has an infinite capacity for recovery without wearing down or scarring in any way that would incriminate him in standard clothing.
Neither of them are plausible, but at the very least Clark does things more akin to us daily than Batman, even if Clark imposes them on himself. Bruce uses his vast resources to avoid doing all that.
As for not having to earn his rent, the only time that's been a thing is when Batman buys his building so I don't think it helps the argument here.
Clark's human in just about every way that matters.[/QUOTE]
I will say; these are the reasons why I say Clark is more "human" (so to speak) than Bruce.
That said; that line to actually being relatable on more than just the most generic scale, is miles away.
Bruce-displays sociopathic tendencies far too often, and has the emotional capability of a brick. He has, as you've said, unbelievable intelligence on just about everything (literally), is made to be almost never wrong on anything, sleeps less than most robots (I think it was said to be 2-3 hours a day he sleeps), etc. The list is too long to really get into, and that's not even touching on him growing up as one of the wealthiest people on the planet.
Clark- while more down to Earth (so to speak) personality wise, he never needs to worry about eating, sleeping, sometimes breathing (depending on the writer), has rarely felt physical pain, also has unbelievable intelligence, and had an uncannily good childhood (him finding he's an alien as a kid or a teen varies from continuity to continuity, and even then, sometimes he takes it in stride, and others he needs time to come to terms with it).
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Will like to know your opinion people about what she is saying.
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Will like to know your opinion people about what she is saying.[/QUOTE]
Warner Brothers greenlit a Joker movie and ongoing comic. They have Harley Quinn on anything they can. They don't give a goddamn about mental health.
Welcome to America. It's appropriate if people will pay for it. Marvel will absolutely sell Moon Knight stuff. They made fat Thor toys and he's literally self-destructing over grief.
Neither one of them has ever been very relateable. I will never be capable of doing anything Batman does, no living person is, so he might as well be as super human as Clark. Bringing Batman closer to reality and making him "human" with no powers while also still making him a character who could never possibly exist renders it all moot and in some ways makes him more ridiculous than Superman.
Thankfully, characters don't have to be relateable to everyone, because people relate to different things and therefore it's an impossible task. You also don't have to personally relate to a character to find them interesting. Batman's ridiculous, but he can still be very interesting
They are both two of my favorite characters generally. I think both modern versions have had a lot of the interesting/fun elements sucked right out of them, so they can be equally boring to me for different reasons.
[QUOTE=Goldrake;5574848]Will like to know your opinion people about what she is saying.[/QUOTE]
There were action figures of Schwarzenegger's Terminator and Rambo in the 90s already. If Grace had an original idea her head would explode.
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Will like to know your opinion people about what she is saying.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand the logic here. [I]Everyone[/I] has mental health issues, especially during current times. Its all just a question of whether its manageable or debilitating.
Joker is a psychopathic killer and he's one of the most merchandisable characters on the planet! Harley Quinn is practically a superhero right now!
That said, I [I]am[/I] a bit worried about WB getting cold-feet over Matt Reeves' film and bastardising it the way they did Snyder's JL. Lets not forget what happened to the Batman franchise the [I]last[/I] time WB had a moral panic about the darkness of the character...
[QUOTE=bat39;5575180]I don't understand the logic here. [I]Everyone[/I] has mental health issues, especially during current times. Its all just a question of whether its manageable or debilitating.[/QUOTE]
Right, because nobody (other than his detractors) seriously thinks he's mentally unstable.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5575188]Right, because nobody (other than his detractors) seriously thinks he's mentally unstable.[/QUOTE]
in my opinion she is the unstable one. She always has to be controversial, an attempt to remain relevant.
[QUOTE=Goldrake;5575208]in my opinion she is the unstable one. She always has to be controversial, an attempt to remain relevant.[/QUOTE]
Which sadly seems to work.
I just saw her take on Bisexual Catwoman or Bisexual characters in general, where she said "Where are the role models for Straight people"...WTF.
Its not about serious takes with people like her, its to get clicks, be controversial and stay relevant...and that sadly works.
[QUOTE=Jackalope89;5574761]... that's not even touching on him growing up as one of the wealthiest people on the planet...[/QUOTE]
This was one of the things that began to turn me off Batman. Rich? Yes, absolutely, that's one of the things baked into the characters' DNA. 0.1%er?, yeah, that works, if only to explain being able to afford his own secret jet and uber-sophisticated car.
This thing though, about him being at the peak of Mount Wealth just felt like too much, and it's not something that was part of his original conceptualization. Byrne did a nice job of illustrating that in his [I]Generations[/I] series. Batman's wealth-standing escalated as the decades passed.