[QUOTE=Alan2099;5900336]I won't say it worked great. It still felt badly paced with characters who's actions didn't make sense and far too much going on at once.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Personally I think what's happening here is dissonance between what we're hearing and wanting to enjoy his pre-JL material. Which is weird cause...well, mileage varies but I can enjoy Angel/Buffy just fine.
[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1;5900333]There is one aspect we have to look at with Cyborg in this film. Its true the Snyder cut gave us a great Cyborg and it was leaps above what we saw released. But as one Youtuber brought up...the Snyder cut was 4 hours. Joss Whedon had a 2-2:30 hour film to cut and do . Maybe 3 hours if Warners would have done it. But they wanted the film to air a lot and likely dictated that the film have a 2 hour run time.
There just wasn't much time to go in-depth with Cyborg in that span with the foundation of....Batman brings a team together , they unite , they battle Steppenwolf , Superman returns from dead and finally they defeat Steppenwolf.
Whedon is terrible for sure. But here he had limited film time and the story beats he had to hit in the film was these. Snyder got a 4 hour film to do EVERYTHING he wanted to do and it worked great.[/QUOTE]
He did have time limits and a mandate to lighten things up although most of the humor was Snyder, after all. It is unfortunate they wouldn't delay. For all his rep as a guy who comes in and fixes problem movies, Whedon's track record isn't great.
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5899921]I think Whedon still has chance of getting called back for something. Fisher though, he was a prima donna from the get go and burned every single bridge he came across.[/QUOTE]
Fisher is still working. Fisher was in True Detective and is currently in ABC show Women Of The Movement. Outside of WB Fisher has no issues. Being a so called 'prima donna' in Hollywood doesn't matter as plenty of actors are prima donna's and get work. ABC network head Kimberly Godwin is the first black woman to head a major network and if she likes Fisher then he will probably always have a job on one of her network shows.
Whedon may continue to get uncredited script doctor work on the down low but the chances of the major studios handing him he reigns of big projects is probably done now all this has come out. Agents will be telling their established star actors not to work on his projects and the major studios aren't going to want to risk the PR trainwreck that is his onset behaviour.
I just find it weird that how much of this narrative revolves around Fisher, who's complaints basically seem to boil down to "my boss was mean and didn't do everything I wanted him too," with a dash of "I'm black. A white person telling me what to do is racist."
I'm not going to say Joss isn't a jerk, but honestly I really can't judge him too much for not being on his best behavior for being brought into a project that's pretty much the opposite of how he does things, given very little time, money, and support, and trying to make something decent out of it while the studio breathes down his neck.
You want to judge hm for sleeping around, sure, go right ahead. That's rather scuzzy behavior.
[QUOTE=chicago_bastard;5899901]I never claimed otherwise. One doesn't necessarily need acting talent to have a career.[/QUOTE]
One doesn't need directing or writing talent to have a career either.
[QUOTE=chicago_bastard;5899740]Now that I read it it became clear that Whedon's answers are from the spring of 2021 (!), so blaming him for them getting published on MLK day is unjustified.
The article is pretty interesting. Apparently Gadot and Fisher, two actors of little talent, weren't satisfied with Whedon's approach and tried to educate the director of the most successful comic book movie (at that time) on how to direct a comic book movie. Hilarious, and understandable that Whedon wasn't taking any shit from them. That part sounds believable to me as that is also what I already got from Fisher's prior statements, when he spoke about Whedon ignoring his imput for his character. What does that guy think he is, no credentials at all and very little acting talent to show for and yet he wants to tell the director how things work?
Whedon surely made mistakes, too, but many things point to all this being to some extent orchestrated.
Anyway, both Whedon's and Fisher's careers are over. In contrast to Fisher Whedon at least had one.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I'm sure the guy who used the "man falls into a woman's boobs" in two separate movies and gave us "do you know what happens to a toad when it gets hit by lightning" is absolutely infallible.
A monkey could have directed The Avengers and it would have been financially successful.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5900398]Yes, I'm sure the guy who used the "man falls into a woman's boobs" in two separate movies and gave us "do you know what happens to a toad when it gets hit by lightning" is absolutely infallible.
A monkey could have directed The Avengers and it would have been financially successful.[/QUOTE]
By that logic a director who manages to turn the first on-screen clash of the two most iconic superheroes (along with Spidey) into a disappointment should be even less talented than a monkey, right?
[QUOTE=chicago_bastard;5900450]By that logic a director who manages to turn the first on-screen clash of the two most iconic superheroes (along with Spidey) into a disappointment should be even less talented than a monkey, right?[/QUOTE]
Trying to make this about Snyder doesn't work as a defense of Whedon (and unlike Whedon, he still has a career and has turned in good work as of recent).
If your logic is that Whedon can get away with being an abusive, unprofessional dick because of his talent, his own version of the Justice League, not to mention Age of Ultron and Dollhouse are pretty strong marks against that argument.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5900489]Trying to make this about Snyder doesn't work as a defense of Whedon (and unlike Whedon, he still has a career and has turned in good work as of recent).
If your logic is that Whedon can get away with being an abusive, unprofessional dick because of his talent, his own version of the Justice League, not to mention Age of Ultron and Dollhouse are pretty strong marks against that argument.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't talking about abusive behaviour, I was talking about the ridiculousness of someone like Fisher trying to educate Whedon on how to direct a comic book movie. Even if Whedon had only one good project to show for that would still be one more credential than Fisher had. And even if Whedon had none at all, as the director he would still be the one who is in charge, so actors telling him what to do is still overstepping their roles. Fisher obviously didn't take it well that his input was diminished, one just has to read his own interviews on the matter, they basically confirm this part of Whedon's statements.
Whedon's career is rightly over. I'm just amused how anyone can give an obviously deluded actor who is overestimating himself a pass in all this.
[QUOTE=Nate Grey;5900347]conversely, Cyborg could have been a plot device as opposed to a fully fleshed-out character had they kept that aspect of the movie.
If Cybrog would would have suffered either way, well, pick your poison.
So no, if we're giving Whedon back-handed defense here, that one doesn't work for me.[/QUOTE]
There was a LOT cut from Whedon's version if we remember. There was characters and more he didn't use because of the time constraints to try and tell a cohesive story in 1 film. Being honest had Warners taken their time and did a Flash film with Cyborg to actually give him an origin film maybe it would have worked best. Then he gets more screen time in this one etc. Instead WB rushed this big team up movie together with trying to give all these characters a bit of back story and ...it failed as we saw.
[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1;5900580]There was a LOT cut from Whedon's version if we remember. There was characters and more he didn't use because of the time constraints to try and tell a cohesive story in 1 film. Being honest had Warners taken their time and did a Flash film with Cyborg to actually give him an origin film maybe it would have worked best. Then he gets more screen time in this one etc. Instead WB rushed this big team up movie together with trying to give all these characters a bit of back story and ...it failed as we saw.[/QUOTE]
You skipped past what I said so I'll try again, but only one more time. The lesser of two evils would have been to make Cyborg a plot device to make the mother box connection make more sense. Meaning he would have been a cipher but his fleshing out could have been left to other people (ie another movie). [I]He was going to get the short end of the stick either way[/I], so why not do it in a way that services the plot. I honestly don't know how to make it clearer than that.
The other people's plots (the stuff that was cut) that folks like to use as a shield to play armchair defense attorney for this man, I get it, but most if not none of it tied into the motherboxes like Cyborg so that doesn't work, either. If it does to you, again, fair, but it doesn't to me. For the reasons I've said, well, twice now.
[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1;5900580]There was a LOT cut from Whedon's version if we remember. There was characters and more he didn't use because of the time constraints to try and tell a cohesive story in 1 film. Being honest had Warners taken their time and did a Flash film with Cyborg to actually give him an origin film maybe it would have worked best. Then he gets more screen time in this one etc. Instead WB rushed this big team up movie together with trying to give all these characters a bit of back story and ...it failed as we saw.[/QUOTE]
Justice League was originally a two part movie. Cyborg story as is could have been kept.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5900398]Yes, I'm sure the guy who used the "man falls into a woman's boobs" in two separate movies and gave us "do you know what happens to a toad when it gets hit by lightning" is absolutely infallible.
A monkey could have directed The Avengers and it would have been financially successful.[/QUOTE]
The Toad line is a byproduct of bad editing (and was that Wheson? I thought it was Singer). The character originally had a pile of groan inducing "You know what happens when a toad .." lines until Storm has finally had enough of his crap and shoves his own catchphrase down his throat. Makes more sense that way than it did in the final cut.
Doesn't change whether or not Joss is an ass though.
[QUOTE=Immortal Weapon;5900592]Justice League was originally a two part movie. Cyborg story as is could have been kept.[/QUOTE]
In a 2 hour film , not as much as we saw to fit time constraints. The film had to hit so many plot points and do it in 2 hours. This was what Warners wanted and why so much never was more fleshed out as we saw. Yes originally this was gonna be a part #1 of a 2 part film as we know. The 2nd part would have featured Darkseid. But the part #1 was a 2 hour film and they wanted the whole storyline with Steppenwolf resolved within 2 hours.
It was never gonna work. WB rushed the Justice League concept and boggled it all.
Whedon in his head, I am certain has retired from Hollywood and this is the way he has decided to go out with a bang by trashing as many as he can, who has called him out. Does he not see the subtle racism that many will see when he says Gal Gadot's first language is not English so she misunderstood him? like really??? on an alleged threat??
Surely any logical person who still wants a career in Hollywood must have known this interview would be poorly received and be a train wreck that will only make him look worse.
This is like watching the Prince Andrew BBC interview, 2 years ago. its amazing how some can cause more self inflicted wounds to themselves.