Comparisons Titans/Teen Titans (Dicks and Tims Generation) to JL

Hello,

I often hear that the JL is the most powerful team etc., but I am not really sure if there is really such a big difference between the teams.
I mean compare the positions:

FLASH FAMILY: Barry is represented as the first (AFTER JAY GARRICK) Flash and he might have created the Speedforce or so, BUT Wally West and seemingly also Bart Allen have surpassed Barry and are faster/more powerful than him.

BATMAN FAMILY: Bruce started the Family, but Tim might be the better inventor/engineer... than him and the grown up Tim (Titans of Tomorrow) showed that he can easily compete with Bruce,Dick,Damian....on all fields. Dick is also close to Bruce...

SUPER-FAMILY: Here we might see the biggest difference. Conner is powerful (as seen in IC), but younger than Clark and therefore not as powerful as Clark is and he doesnt have the fortress.

WONDER-FAMILY: Diana and Donna are close....Cassie is difficult, because I dont know how much powerful she later will be and also her current power level is difficult to measure...

ARROW-FAMILY: Oliver is good, but Arsenal has more skills....Arrowette was retired and Mia Dearden is seemingly not here...

AQUA-FAMILY: Aquaman has the trident and other powers, but Tempest is also very powerful and maybe even more powerful than Aquaman...Jackson and Lorena are difficult to measure.....

MARTIAN-FAMILY: difficult to measure, dont know if Miss Martian is more powerful (telepathy or so) than Martian Manhunter...


So I think the Titans are close (in terms of powers) to the JL and sometimes even surpass them....(LOGICALLY THE JL is MUCH BIGGER), but I think it would be no problem to let also the Titans win against big level enemies etc.

Yeah, Mia seems to have been outright replaced by Emiko Queen aka Red Arrow (who's a current Teen Titan) - there's been no Speedy since Flashpoint. Arrowette's back now, by the way.

With the Aqua family, don't forget about Mera. She's had a couple of Justice League stints recently.

Lorena? Isn't that Aquagirl 2? I thought she didn't exist any more. Tula, the first Aquagirl, does but isn't acting as a superhero.

The only person that did/might of surpassed their mentors are Wally (who definitely did), Bart (who’s suggested to be more powerful or have the potential), Future Tim Drake was the only one of the Batfamily shown capable of competing with the rest all at the same time that could of just been due to future knowledge that the present members didn’t have. But he’s also always been suggested to becoming a better detective and engineer than Batman.

Tempest/Garth should logically be more powerful than Aquaman but it’s never showcased as such despite his raw magic talent and his abilities to do stuff like teleport, boil and freeze blood, control large parts of the ocean, swapping souls into fish and so on. I’d just argue WIS in his case. Mera is straight up showcased as more powerful than Aquaman though. Kaldur and Lorena have nothing to put them above Aquaman however. He’s physically superior to both, his gear is better, and if he has telepathy on Morrison/PAD level I’d put him up there with Garth and Mera.

Kyle might be the only Lantern that’s straight up surpassed Hal as well as Hal’s predecessor Alan Scott when looking at Earth based Lanterns.

Donna Troy is nowhere near Diana, I don’t think Wonder Woman has anyone in her family that’s on her level. Donna got killed by a Superman robot that wasn’t anywhere near the full power of actual Superman and she severely struggled against it too. Whereas Wonder Woman has held her own against the real deal when Superman’s been bloodlusted for the most part. Not to mention Diana’s superior gear.

The only one that might be close to Superman is Supergirl off statements, but showings contradict anyone on the Superman family surpassing his or being superior to him. I honestly prefer Superman outliving everyone to be honest as well but that’s a different subject.

Miss Martian is not on J’onn level either. Every attribute they share Martian Manhunter outclasses her in based off showings.


Personally I don’t even like the Titans being a junior Justice League I don’t mind The Titans having past sidekicks but the main roster shouldn’t be a Junior Justice League in my opinion. JL Odyssey would of been the perfect Titans book in my opinion. The whole concept of becoming Gods would of been cool for the concept of “Titans” as well, and you had two big Titans at the start of the book Cyborg and Starfire. Darkseid or whoever else being a big enough enemy.

[QUOTE=MadFacedKid;4878477]The only person that did/might of surpassed their mentors are Wally (who definitely did), Bart (whoÂ’s suggested to be more powerful or have the potential), Future Tim Drake was the only one of the Batfamily shown capable of competing with the rest all at the same time that could of just been due to future knowledge that the present members didnÂ’t have. But heÂ’s also always been suggested to becoming a better detective and engineer than Batman.

Tempest/Garth should logically be more powerful than Aquaman but itÂ’s never showcased as such despite his raw magic talent and his abilities to do stuff like teleport, boil and freeze blood, control large parts of the ocean, swapping souls into fish and so on. IÂ’d just argue WIS in his case. Mera is straight up showcased as more powerful than Aquaman though. Kaldur and Lorena have nothing to put them above Aquaman however. HeÂ’s physically superior to both, his gear is better, and if he has telepathy on Morrison/PAD level IÂ’d put him up there with Garth and Mera.

Kyle might be the only Lantern thatÂ’s straight up surpassed Hal as well as HalÂ’s predecessor Alan Scott when looking at Earth based Lanterns.

Donna Troy is nowhere near Diana, I donÂ’t think Wonder Woman has anyone in her family thatÂ’s on her level. Donna got killed by a Superman robot that wasnÂ’t anywhere near the full power of actual Superman and she severely struggled against it too. Whereas Wonder Woman has held her own against the real deal when SupermanÂ’s been bloodlusted for the most part. Not to mention DianaÂ’s superior gear.

The only one that might be close to Superman is Supergirl off statements, but showings contradict anyone on the Superman family surpassing his or being superior to him. I honestly prefer Superman outliving everyone to be honest as well but thatÂ’s a different subject.

Miss Martian is not on JÂ’onn level either. Every attribute they share Martian Manhunter outclasses her in based off showings.


Personally I don’t even like the Titans being a junior Justice League I don’t mind The Titans having past sidekicks but the main roster shouldn’t be a Junior Justice League in my opinion. JL Odyssey would of been the perfect Titans book in my opinion. The whole concept of becoming Gods would of been cool for the concept of “Titans” as well, and you had two big Titans at the start of the book Cyborg and Starfire. Darkseid or whoever else being a big enough enemy.[/QUOTE]


As far as I understood future Tim feared that he would never be as good as the other ones, so he spent a lot of time sparring IN SIMULATIONS against the other Batfamily members etc. But anyway it doesnt really matter as he showed that he has the potential (physical and especially intelligence) to surpass Bruce.

Bart also definetely surpasses Barry and Wally as it was said that he is faster than the other Speedster combined.
It was as he was aged up and became the Flash....It was said that Bart as Flash was faster than the other Speedsters combined....
And its also logically that he will surpass them, because he was born with Superspeed while Barry and Wally got superspeed as result of experiments..

Donna is difficult...I think her power level varies...
Hippolyta is/was much more powerful than her or?

Pre-Flashpoint it was also possible that Cassie surpass her, because pre-flashpoint Diana was made out of Clay while Cassie was the DAUGHTER OF ZEUS...Cassie was younger and he mostly relied on Zeus and Ares Powers and learned late how to step in her own powers.
So I think we saw very little of Cassies potential Pre-Flashpoint, because she learned during the fight with Lycus to use her own powers...(this happened 2008).

Superman is difficult, because Conners power level also varied much...
BUT if we use his Teen Titans Time (Superboy Prime Fight) and we look at TITANS OF TOMORROW Conner (who was a clone, but able to fight against Supergirl) than its possible that he is close to Superman AND!! he also has TTK which could be used to increase his strenght etc.

In YJ Anime Miss Martian surpassed Martian Manhunters in telepathy..This was shown in the episode with the simulation and was also stated there...
Comic Miss Martian is difficult, because she hadnt so many appearances...

But anyway I think the Titans are on a good level if you use mature (20+) versions of Tims and Dicks Team and combine the two teams on some occasions.
I always thougt of the Titans of a MODERN JUSTICE LEAGUE with more modern Uniforms (no more capes etc.)

It's not that they can't it's that they're not allowed.
Anytime there's a big threat or event, DC's gonna use Justice League first because that's their premiere team.
In the story, The League will call on everyone available if they can't handle it on their own like, for example, the Brainiac forces in No Justice, Perpetua, and others before them, but decision to put the biggest enemies or event on League first and not Titans is about marketing.

With the Young Justice kids, it's less that they're as powerful or equal to their mentors and more that they could be, one day, when they're adults.

Bart was indeed said to be faster than any other speedster, but I believe that was during his time as Flash when he had internalized the entire speed force. Tim was always said to be one of the most naturally gifted detectives Bruce had met, and at this point in Tim's career he's probably on the "top 10 best PI's" list, but he's still not Bruce's equal. None of the other YJ kids come close to their mentors.

Things are much closer if you look at the adult Titans. Wally definitely surpassed Barry. And Dick is definitely a equal substitute for Bruce; better at some things (leading, athleticism, not being a d-bag) but worse at others (detective work) but overall on par with the Bat.

But past those guys? Donna is nowhere near as powerful or capable as Diana. Which isn't a knock on Donna really, Diana is one of the most capable beings on earth. Raven and Cyborg are both supposed to be insanely powerful, but are rarely written to their potential. Starfire is a total badass and could easily stand equal with the League, but she's certainly not surpassing them. And Beast Boy.....he's treated more like a Teen Titan than Damian Wayne so he definitely isn't surpassing any Leaguers any time soon.

[QUOTE=Masterff;4892888]Superman is difficult, because Conners power level also varied much...
BUT if we use his Teen Titans Time (Superboy Prime Fight) and we look at TITANS OF TOMORROW Conner (who was a clone, but able to fight against Supergirl) than its possible that he is close to Superman AND!! he also has TTK which could be used to increase his strenght etc.[/QUOTE]I don't think alternate future Version are really a good measurement for the power of a character, and taking a single fight is as problematic, because fight go often they way they need to go for the plot, and not like it wold make sense based to the power levels of the characters.

I think if we compare the teams as a whole the Justice League still wins, the Titans don't have a Superman Equivalent, and I might be wrong but I think that Connor has in most versions not the Powerlevel of a full Kryptonian.

Clark is on top of that much Smarter then Connor.

[QUOTE=Masterff;4878226]Hello,



BATMAN FAMILY: Bruce started the Family, but Tim might be the better inventor/engineer... than him and [B]the grown up Tim (Titans of Tomorrow) showed that he can easily compete with Bruce,Dick,Damian....on all fields.[/B] Dick is also close to Bruce...

.[/QUOTE]

He fought Dick, Bruce, Jason, Damian and their dog all at once and beat them that true yet he tried to kill teen Batman Damian not hand to hand mind but by blowing up Gotham station and failed. Meaning that he was aware of the soul deal and knew he didn't have a chance one on one.

TOT future is different from from Batman666 but Damian rising from the wreckage of the massive explosion implies that in this future he's has 666's invulnerability.

So that field is out.

Jason is a better Marksman as shown in the issue where he fought Batman in the supersons crossover. H e aimed at his face and later Bruce has a bandage on his arm so Tim missed at close quarters.

That's just two fields.

A possible 3rd is common sense and tactics I doubt Dick, Damian or Jason would attempt to take down a character who had invulnerability by blowing up a public building and not even check to ensure they were successful. That is an actual trope in comedy, horror

The predictable: This foolprove strategy will 100% work for sure this time... oh no the plan failed and that guy you thought you killed is back. The strategy is usually a stupid one and everyone recognises this aside from the over confident and incompetent Strategist.

This same trope is present in all 3 Rebirth stories featuring Future Tim.
rebirth Tec his strategy I will stop a bad thing from happening in my future world by going back in time to kill the person responsible before it happens. So he comes to Batwoman.

Supersons/TOT crossover this time his would be victim is 10 year old Jon Kent.

Of course all three times his plans fail and of course smarter characters around tell him it's the wrong move. Superman finally gets through to him.