Art Spiegelman's rejected Golden Age TPB essay

Art Spiegelman wrote an essay about Marvel as a prelude for TPB [i]Marvel: The Golden Age 1939–1949[/i], but the house of ideas rejected it because it compares Donald Trump to the Red Skull.
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/16/art-spiegelmans-marvel-essay-refused-publication-for-orange-skull-trump-dig[/url]

So it was printed in the UK's Guardian newspaper instead.
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/17/art-spiegelman-golden-age-superheroes-were-shaped-by-the-rise-of-fascism[/url]

"Orange Skull" would have been too literary a reference for Trump supporters to grok and I doubt many of them would be interested in a folio collection of Golden Age comics anyway. So it does feel weak and pointless on Marvel's point to make a fuss about this introduction.

If you are going to get an outsider comic artist like Spiegelman, best believe he's gonna type with the gloves off.

As it is Spiegelman, a guy who's not a big fan of superhero comics (as he admits there) was a choice made to get some real prestige for this. And now they come out looking as cowards.

I mean if Marvel wants to be this bi-partisan thing since Perlmutter's company employs many left-wing people on editors and writing staff and among artists and so on, it would have been stronger if they let Spiegelman publish that intro.

Marvel trying to be apolitical? They haven't shown Trump, which by itself is a pretty big sign of how they feel. Then you have the current story in Avengers and the Secret Empite story and I know that there sre seversl others.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4517434]Marvel trying to be apolitical? They haven't shown Trump, which by itself is a pretty big sign of how they feel. Then you have the current story in Avengers and the Secret Empite story and I know that there sre seversl others.[/QUOTE]

Marvel is never going to be fully apolitical, but I definitely think the post-Cebulski era has been trying to cut any overly direct references to real life politicians. While in the Alonso era you would get the literal face of Donald Trump put in the body of M.O.D.O.K., now in the Cebulski era, [URL=https://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/12/20/marvel-donald-trump-joke-fantastic-four-orange-monster/]you can't even make jokes alluding to him.[/URL]

Keep modern, foaming at the mouth, anti-Trump opinions out of my Golden Age stories please. One has nothing to do with the other and it tiresome and will not age well.

That quote would likely date the collection after a single year, but even if that is the reason they cut it, it's not worth the optics.

[Quote]Spiegelman finishes his essay by saying: “In today’s all too real world, Captain America’s most nefarious villain, the Red Skull, is alive on screen and an Orange Skull haunts America.” [/Quote]

Is that it? Yes, it should have been pulled. Not because of the political slant, but because it barely rates as satire, let alone a real, honest to goodness burn. I struggle with people who find a bull horn in the heart of a conflagration only to use it to shout, "Hey guys, I think something is on fire." If you're going to cut a man, by God, unsheathe the sword and don't use the pommel.

Big-boned, oddly colored, obsessed with his own ratings? He's no Red Skull, he's Mojo! :)

I'm glad they cut it for a variety of reasons. It doesn't sound like it was a terribly appropriate context for the injection of personal politics, and Marvel has every right to determine that they want to dial back on the injection of politics into their product. It is rarely a good idea to alienate half of your customers, both potential and actual.

[QUOTE=Doombot;4517520]Keep modern, foaming at the mouth, anti-Trump opinions out of my Golden Age stories please. One has nothing to do with the other and it tiresome and will not age well.[/QUOTE]

But why shouldn't we? Plenty of books were political back in the day, they were just against facism. Nowadays people get offended if you don't praise Nazis enough!

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4517601]But why shouldn't we? Plenty of books were political back in the day, they were just against facism. Nowadays people get offended if you don't praise Nazis enough![/QUOTE]

The comment strikes me as a bit feeble, and is going to be become dated soon (the world has gone completely insane if the Donald is re-elected)...I can see why Marvel wouldn’t want to irritate a fair wad of its customer base for such a peripheral comment.

[B][I]We must stop Marvel[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4517601]But why shouldn't we? Plenty of books were political back in the day, they were just against facism. Nowadays people get offended if you don't praise Nazis enough![/QUOTE]

If you truly care about and enjoy comics, then you should want healthy sales. Without healthy sales, the industry truly will be doomed. Alienating half of the buyers, current and potential, is sure to hurt sales. Therefore.....

[QUOTE=JackDaw;4517611]The comment strikes me as a bit feeble, and is going to be become dated soon (the world has gone completely insane if the Donald is re-elected)...I can see why Marvel wouldn’t want to irritate a fair wad of its customer base for such a peripheral comment.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=mikelmcknight72;4517702]If you truly care about and enjoy comics, then you should want healthy sales. Without healthy sales, the industry truly will be doomed. Alienating half of the buyers, current and potential, is sure to hurt sales. Therefore.....[/QUOTE]

Mu point is, there is a reason why conservative politics aren't usually the "good guy" in media, but there's especially a good reason why stories aren't kind to Trump and the far-right. They are objectively bad and really hard to make sympathetic and relatable characters.

And yes, adding Trump or any president into stories would date the stories too much, but while the Marvel leadership would like to claim that they are apolitical, the stories and events being put forth don't show that. You can't totally divorce politics from these stories, that isn't how art works. That isn't how it's ever worked.

Always enjoyed reading Marvel heroes punching out the bad guys. No reason why we can't see Captain America punching trump like we saw with Hitler.

Apparently there is a super hero punching trump, [URL="https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/el-peso-hero-hero-mexico-needs-and-one-it-deserves"]El Peso Hero[/URL] lol. Going to have to buy these comics.

Well no, it's not really appropriate and likely to irritate people who are going to buy the product. But personally I can't begin to mind and think Spiegelman is a really cool guest for a comic essay.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4517855]Mu point is, there is a reason why conservative politics aren't usually the "good guy" in media, but there's especially a good reason why stories aren't kind to Trump and the far-right. They are objectively bad and really hard to make sympathetic and relatable characters.[/QUOTE]

There is a reason, but not the one you said. The folks who bring you the MSM and entertainment are predominantly progressive, and they tend to exist in an echo chamber. The way they characterize conservative and Christians is rarely even close to accurate. Also, far right and conservative are two different things. Trump doesn't really fit either.

Imagine Rejecting Art Spiegelman. The kinda absolute idiocy of that is staggering.

Donald Trump probably isn't as sneakily conniving and cunningly clever as Red Skull is, as immoral as he is.

[QUOTE=mikelmcknight72;4517920]There is a reason, but not the one you said. The folks who bring you the MSM and entertainment are predominantly progressive, and they tend to exist in an echo chamber. The way they characterize conservative and Christians is rarely even close to accurate. Also, far right and conservative are two different things. Trump doesn't really fit either.[/QUOTE]

But can you find me one critically accepted and mainstream piece of conservative media-a book or a movie or something-that has been successful in the past 20 or 30 years? Because I honestly can't think of any.

Also, dude, I know you're on the X-boards. You know they have had several storylines about putting children in camps that refer directly to Trump's policies.

And I'm not so sure really half of Marvel's readers are right-wing conservatives. And if they are, are those the people Marvel should be courting? Who is spending the money here?

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518130]But can you find me one critically accepted and mainstream piece of conservative media-a book or a movie or something-that has been successful in the past 20 or 30 years? Because I honestly can't think of any.[/quote]

Passion of the Christ for one thing, then you have Three Hundred by Zack Snyder, WWE is quite popular among red and blue states and Vince McMahon's wife works for Trump's administration (or at least did). And you also had the first Roseanne show.

So I wouldn't say media targeting conservative types isn't popular or viable on the mainstream, if only because people on the left still find it hard to get movies made. OR stories told and so on.

[quote]And I'm not so sure really half of Marvel's readers are right-wing conservatives. And if they are, are those the people Marvel should be courting? Who is spending the money here?[/QUOTE]

It's not so much money as it is online clickbait and social media. Comics are read by a small audience, but they tend to create buzz online that can go viral and so on.

After the failure of Secret Empire and so on, I think Marvel are skeptical of any rocking the boat and are timid.

I personally think that they made a bigger deal of Spiegelman's intro than it would have been. For one, these are classic golden age comics that only scholars and special fans will read. Spiegelman obviously doesn't speak for Marvel. You get Spiegelman to do an introduction if you want prestige and a touch of class. His readership know who he is and they know that Spiegelman dignifying superhero stuff is itself a rare gesture from the man.

Still it could be worse. Imagine if they got Alan Moore who's way, way to the left of Spiegelman.

But was Secret Empire a true failure? Was it because it alienated half of its audience? Do the numbers reflect that?

And I'm not sure the first incarnation of Roseanne could really be called conservative. The reboot had conservative chsracters, but it wasn't entirely kind to them, especially considering that Roseanne had to be killed off due to her own actions and, in the show, because of Trump's own policies on healthcare.

If Marvel could get Alan Moore to write anything for them, I would assume that literal witchcraft was involved.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518183]But was Secret Empire a true failure? Was it because it alienated half of its audience? Do the numbers reflect that?[/quote]

[url]https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09/01/between-the-panels-why-marvels-secret-empire-failed[/url]
[url]https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/19/comic-store-secret-empire-future-drop/[/url]
[url]https://screenrant.com/secret-empire-marvel-sales-dc-comic/[/url]

Marvel tend to do a lot of spin on sales numbers and so on. So they'll never outright admit they failed. Marvel have this attitude of "Never apologize".

[quote]If Marvel could get Alan Moore to write anything for them, I would assume that literal witchcraft was involved.[/QUOTE]

For a golden age publication featuring Jack Kirby stuff, who Moore continues to admire and express affection for, maybe. Moore never forgave Marvel for renaming Marvelman into Miracleman which they did by bullying Eclipse into doing so. If Marvel didn't do that, Moore [I]might[/I] have, maybe, worked for them.

Getting Art Spiegelman to say yes was a major coup as it was. Now of course they will just confirm the biases and critiques many outsider types have about corporations and so on. While Spiegelman gets another story to tell about another time he stepped on the toes of really powerful figures and so on. He's done that before as has Moore.

But those numbers still don't show that event lose half its numbers. And there's plenty of speculation that those numbers could have been from legit event fatigue. Remember, it was after this that we had to wait eighteen months for another large event and we were itching for it. So to blame it all on the loss of conservative readers seems as much of a spin as Marvel's own.

But that's what I mean, about Moore. If Marvel could lure him back, I would assume that a literal deal with the actual Devil was made.

Listen, my point is simple: Marvel's creative teams aren't apolitical and there's been plenty of anti-Trump in Marvel even since Secret Empire. The line is still making money, it's not losing money anymore than it was before Trump was voted in, and the fact is, I don't see any evidence that conservatives make up a huge portion of their fanbase. If comics are to survive, then they need to court younger audiences, which are comprised of a lot of liberal leaning people.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518198]But those numbers still don't show that event lose half its numbers. And there's plenty of speculation that those numbers could have been from legit event fatigue. Remember, it was after this that we had to wait eighteen months for another large event and we were itching for it. So to blame it all on the loss of conservative readers seems as much of a spin as Marvel's own. [/quote]

What I meant was that Secret Empire's backlash might have made Marvel nervous about leaning in to certain political ideas and matters. That's all.

I actually agree with you about the fact that the readership for comics isn't conservative. The thing is Secret Empire became controversial and known to people who didn't read the comic simply because of "Captain America is a Nazi" traveled well and made for clickbait and so on, picked up by newsmedia and others and getting a lot of publicity. It's just that well, it turns out there really is such a thing as bad publicity.

So I think people at Marvel didn't want a headline with "Marvel comic says Trump is a Nazi" which could well have spun out of Spiegelman's intro. I think they were over-reacting but I think that was the fear behind it.

[quote]Listen, my point is simple: Marvel's creative teams aren't apolitical and there's been plenty of anti-Trump in Marvel even since Secret Empire. The line is still making money, it's not losing money anymore than it was before Trump was voted in, and the fact is, I don't see any evidence that conservatives make up a huge portion of their fanbase. If comics are to survive, then they need to court younger audiences, which are comprised of a lot of liberal leaning people.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. I think Marvel were too timid...but there's a lot of method behind fear, just like there's method behind madness.

I agree with the fear. Which is why they have gonenin a slightly more subtle direction. Especially since even a lot of liberal readers were put off because they thought that the book was being literal. Both extremes thought the book was saying the same thing and it got weird.

That being said, I still think that people read way too much into some of the sales figures and don't apply simple and actual apolitical thought into why books are failing.

Let's see what Spiegelman wrote.

The title itself is wrong: "Golden age superheroes were shaped by the rise of fascism"
The only superhero in that regard is Captain America. Or at least the only one people are familiar with. As for the other heroes back then, like Superman, they were obviously affected by the war, but as soon as the war was over, it was back to business as usual.

"[I]Comics allowed readers to escape into fantasy by projecting themselves on to invulnerable heroes[/I]"

That's a myth. Or at least only true for some of the readers. The idea that the readers of superhero comics are weaklings with the dream of becoming a super strong Superman or whatever is common amongst armchair psychologists. Another explanation is that kids read comics simply because they enjoy them.

[I]Auschwitz and Hiroshima make more sense as dark comic book cataclysms than as events in our real world. In today’s all too real world, Captain America’s most nefarious villain, the Red Skull, is alive on screen and an Orange Skull haunts America. International fascism again looms large (how quickly we humans forget – study these golden age comics hard, boys and girls!) and the dislocations that have followed the global economic meltdown of 2008 helped bring us to a point where the planet itself seems likely to melt down. Armageddon seems somehow plausible and we’re all turned into helpless children scared of forces grander than we can imagine, looking for respite and answers in superheroes flying across screens in our chapel of dreams.[/I]

This is just ramblings. As for the Trump reference, it's a deliberate insult. It would be wise not to insult potential byers because of their political views. Especially when arguments, facts and documentation is completely absent, which doesn't belong in a comic book introduction anyway (along with the author's political opinions).
Asking him to remove the sentence was only reasonable. If Marvel has made a decision to be apolitical, it's better late than never.

[I]I didn’t think of myself as especially political compared with some of my fellow travellers[/I]

Sorry Art, but that's whataboutism.

[I]I realised that perhaps it had been irresponsible to be playful about the dire existential threat we now live with[/I]

Existential threat because of Trump? If that's what he means, it's hard to take him serious.

[I]Perlmutter and his wife have each recently donated $360,000 (the maximum allowed) to the Orange Skull’s “Trump Victory Joint Fundraising Committee” for 2020.[/I]

Does Perlmutter have anything to do with Marvel asking him to remove the Trump reference? If so, how? If not, what's the relevance? Perlmutter does not appear to be especially sympathetic, but I have a feeling that he could have been the nicest guy in the world, and yet the gossip about his donations would still have been brought up. Donating money to a fundraising committee is not exactly a crime, it's not even immoral.
The tolerance of the tolerant often stop when they encounter someone with a political view different from their own.

Yeah, I seriously have to doubt there's that many right-wing types that read comics at all let alone would be buying this.
Most I've ever encountered are the ComicsGater whiners who moan and cry whenever a character that isn't a straight white male gets to exist. And really, we'd be better off if they did stop infecting comics in general.

[QUOTE=scourge;4518283]Yeah, I seriously have to doubt there's that many right-wing types that read comics at all let alone would be buying this.
Most I've ever encountered are the ComicsGater whiners who moan and cry whenever a character that isn't a straight white male gets to exist. And really, we'd be better off if they did stop infecting comics in general.[/QUOTE]

So you assume it was because of "right-wingers" Marvel asked him to remove the Trump reference? A request not to disrespect your country's legally elected president and to keep your political opinions for yourself is far from bending your knees for right-wingers, whatever that means these days.

And sorry to say it, but comics are for everyone, not just the politically correct ones.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518130]But can you find me one critically accepted and mainstream piece of conservative media-a book or a movie or something-that has been successful in the past 20 or 30 years? Because I honestly can't think of any.[/QUOTE]

Passion of the Christ, arguably Blue Bloods. Considering how predominantly progressive Hollywood is, not much in the way of conservative movies & shows get made for the mainstream.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518130]Also, dude, I know you're on the X-boards. You know they have had several storylines about putting children in camps that refer directly to Trump's policies.[/QUOTE]

Mutant detention in X-Books typically results in Nazi-style concentration camps in which people are experimented on and murdered. Likening that to ICE detention is grossly inaccurate and unfair. The current POTUS is hardly the first to have ICE detention. Obama certainly had them too.

[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4518130]And I'm not so sure really half of Marvel's readers are right-wing conservatives. And if they are, are those the people Marvel should be courting? Who is spending the money here?[/QUOTE]

Do you really think only progressives read comics, watch Marvel movies, and watch Marvel TV series? Why shouldn't Marvel court both conservatives and progressives? I'm not just thinking of who is spending money on comics now. I'm thinking of increasing the number of people spending money on comics.

[QUOTE=Banner;4518292]So you assume it was because of "right-wingers" Marvel asked him to remove the Trump reference? A request not to disrespect your country's legally elected president and to keep your political opinions for yourself is far from bending your knees for right-wingers, whatever that means these days.[/QUOTE]

Except Marvel had no problem with disrespecting Trump and making their political opinions on him very clear just a few years ago. The Spider-Gwen annual that portrayed Trump explicitly as a villain came out just one year before the Marvel Two-In-One book was edited to remove a Trump joke. So yeah, I think it's safer to assume they are adopting new policies now out of fear of backlash rather than out of some newfound respect for a politician they mocked and demonized not long ago.

[QUOTE=Drops Of Venus;4518357]Except Marvel had no problem with disrespecting Trump and making their political opinions on him very clear just a few years ago. The Spider-Gwen annual that portrayed Trump explicitly as a villain came out just one year before the Marvel Two-In-One book was edited to remove a Trump joke. So yeah, I think it's safer to assume they are adopting new policies now out of fear of backlash rather than out of some newfound respect for a politician they mocked and demonized not long ago.[/QUOTE]

That's why I wrote "better late than never". If they do it just because they are afraid of backlash, it's way better than nothing. I'm glad they're moving away from that nonsense.

The problem is that some assume a certain political view can claim ownership of the comic industry, a conviction that manifest itself in disrespectful comments and intolerance. Respect goes both ways. You can't keep insulting someone just because their opinions are not the same as yours.

And it's not just "straight, white guys" that voted for Trump. Also gays, blacks, transgenders, immigrants and women voted for him.
A few years ago Marvel did what the social media demanded them to do; making the Marvel universe more politically correct, and the sales dropped. When you move away from what made the titles popular to begin with, there will be consequences.

Uh, I don't think the complaint about the essay dating the collection is particularly valid when you consider this set of comics are from the 40s...

Personally I think it's a pretty cowardly move, especially considering how relatively light of a burn it is. This is an incredibly niche product already, I highly doubt you would get a big boycott against, especially considering how more left leaning the comics book readership is right now. Besides, the people who would complain about this anyway probably already are just since it existed at any point, these are the same kinds of conservatives that complained when Disney announced the actress for that Little Mermaid remake, or who complained there was a trans storyline in that new Rocko's Modern Life Netflix special. Give them a week and they'll have moved on to the next "greatest injustice in the world".

If the rapidly-shipping Secret Empire, which stayed in the top 10 bestsellers for 5 months, was a failure, then it's a shame that WOTR, Infinity Wars, and most comics are bombs.

[QUOTE=Banner;4518447]That's why I wrote "better late than never". If they do it just because they are afraid of backlash, it's way better than nothing. I'm glad they're moving away from that nonsense.

The problem is that some assume a certain political view can claim ownership of the comic industry, a conviction that manifest itself in disrespectful comments and intolerance. Respect goes both ways. You can't keep insulting someone just because their opinions are not the same as yours. [/QUOTE]

I'm going to stop you right there because your point is laughable and disingenuous.

This is not a matter of 'opinion'. This is a matter of one group being factually and morally wrong on pretty much every single front.

[QUOTE=Banner;4518447]A few years ago Marvel did what the social media demanded them to do; making the Marvel universe more politically correct, and the sales dropped. When you move away from what made the titles popular to begin with, there will be consequences.[/QUOTE]

Again, entirely wrong.

[QUOTE=scourge;4518550]I'm going to stop you right there because your point is laughable and disingenuous.

This is not a matter of 'opinion'. This is a matter of one group being factually and morally wrong on pretty much every single front. [/QUOTE]

Wow. So much arrogance and disinterest in civil discourse.

All I'm seeing is the usual right wing shitpost esque excuses to defend Trump.

As for Secret Empire imo there were two main issues. The first was when doing interviews they didnt leave any mystery, no "Well he may be Hydra he may not be" they explicitly said "He's ALWAYS been Hydra" the second issue was that it was Caps 75th Anniversary. Imagine being so brain dead that uou cant fathom how it looks to turn a guy who embodies the best traits of America, created by a jew, into a Nazi on his anniversary.

[QUOTE=mikelmcknight72;4518612]Wow. So much arrogance and disinterest in civil discourse.[/QUOTE]

Take your sea-lioning elsewhere.

[QUOTE=Panfoot;4518505]Besides, the people who would complain about this anyway probably already are just since it existed at any point, these are the same kinds of conservatives that complained when Disney announced the actress for that Little Mermaid remake, or who complained there was a trans storyline in that new Rocko's Modern Life Netflix special. Give them a week and they'll have moved on to the next "greatest injustice in the world".[/QUOTE]

That's black and white view. For some reason it is OK to complain about "whitewashing", demand that Disney should change the appearence of Tiana in Ralph Breaks the Internet (Disney had already made some changes in The Princess and the Frog, but it still wasn't good enough), the complain about every new blonde Disney princess, insist that Frozen needs more ethnic diversity and wanted Kristoff to have black hair and brown skin (so much for being "colorblind"). And the same kind of people did their best to turn Ender's Game into a flop. Not because of the story, characters, actors, director or scriptwriter, but because they didn't like all the opinion of Orson Scott Card, who had nothing to do with the movie except that he wrote the book. The fact that it was a woman who took a huge risk making it is obvioulsy not that important in cases like this. They also demanded that Card should not be allowed to become the new Superman writer, which DC did what they were told. Do these too whine and complain?

[QUOTE=scourge;4518550]I'm going to stop you right there because your point is laughable and disingenuous.
This is not a matter of 'opinion'. This is a matter of one group being factually and morally wrong on pretty much every single front.

Again, entirely wrong.[/QUOTE]

You need to get out of the bubble you're living in.

[url]https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/25/yes-marvel-comics-going-full-identity-politics-hurting-sales/[/url]

One of the problems is that already established characters are being retconned and changed when it would work better with new ones.