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It's all about writing more than anything.
Show us these characters away from plots of a potential mole, and Judas Contract did more harm than good.
Show the Titans facing League-level threats, an excursion to a different planet, maybe even something multiversal.
Show us these characters, and this team still has something to say, in and out of costume; it's what made the NTT and even something like Young Justice successful. Characterization is important and what separates the Titans from other teams.
It wasn't just about their crime-fighting, everything flowed, and there's been too much writing focusing on breaking them down or trying to reignite their spark without actually using any fire.
Titans Academy is a wasted opportunity, and there's a lot that could be done for these characters by having them attempt to give back to a younger generation.
I would be interested in GOOD writing, willing to push the boundaries of their lives and their villains. Expand beyond Deathstroke and Trigon etc.
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With a good writer and high stakes? Yeah, also no weird de-aging of BB AND Raven let them be adults like the rest of their gen. If they're going to be together just for old times sake then no thanks, that's how you get Rebirth Titans.
Also no remixing old events, leave Judas Contract ALONE.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5879470]One thing I really am not impressed by is these characters becoming Justice League members. The idea that they need to move on from being Titans to being Justice League members--B squad Justice League members at that--is the type of thinking I feel is kicking Titans in the gutter. Also, the Justice League is probably always going to go back to being Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Aquaman. It may momentarily deviate from that like the JLI days, but it will likely [I]always[/I] go back to that. If you try to shoehorn someone else into that spot with them, the likelihood is it will not stick and they will get kicked out. We already saw this happen with Cyborg. So, I really don't think the Titans characters would fully "graduate" to the Justice League anyway. If someone had a really direct and strong creative vision specifically for that to happen, and if the comics didn't change hands as much as they do, maaaaaaybe something like that would happen, but I don't see it happening realistically.
They are a unique gang of heroes. They are their own thing and I think that should be celebrated, not treated like something one needs to get away from to become a part of short lived, constantly shuffled Justice League B squads.
Having said all that, I really don't think things should be presented as an either/or scenario. That's just putting false rules on things. They can still be Titans while doing other stuff. For example, Dick Grayson can still do what he does in Nightwing while also being a Titan.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 100%. The thing that always made the Titans different is they are first and formost friends. Most of them grew up together. The Justice League is a job and they are work friends, but the Titans for good or bad are more of a family. I mean you can actually believe guys like Roy, Dick, and Wally would hang out and have a few beers with each other watching a game. You can't say that with most of the League members. Titans is at its best when it is written as a soap opera with a lot of moving character plots, but it takes a special kind of writer to do that type of book these days.
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I love the OG Titans and the NTT but, as said before, writers seem focused on rehearsing the same plots.
People tend to forget Titans is supposed to be more about Family, like, JLA are the pros/co-workers/friends Titans Family and Teen Titans the coming to age stories.
I thought the Titans Academy was a good mix but the execution is okay/average.
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[QUOTE=Dark-Jacket;5880606]I love the OG Titans and the NTT but, as said before, writers seem focused on rehearsing the same plots.
People tend to forget Titans is supposed to be more about Family, like, JLA are the pros/co-workers/friends Titans Family and Teen Titans the coming to age stories.
I thought te Titans Academy was a good mix but the execution is okay/average.[/QUOTE]
Titans academy is horrible. The concept was okay, the execution probably couldn't be much worse. The OG Titans are written extremely bad.
A series in the hands of a competent writer could do wonders for their brand in comics.
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[QUOTE=phonogram12;5879055]Anyone here ever read Alan Moore's super short run on Youngblood? It was similar to his Supreme run whereas he took the basic archetypes of the Titans from either previous YB characters or all new one's he created. Even using Liefield's initial concept and a few of his characters, it was unsurprisingly great. Anyway, I always thought a lineup similar to Moore's run would be interesting.
Shaft - Arsenal
Dusk - Nightwing
Suprema - Supergirl
Big Brother - Cyborg
Johnny Panic - never quite figured out who his archetype was
Maybe switch out Arsenal with Flamebird (only because I loved the original Red Hood & the Outlaws run so much and would hate to split up that team) and Supergirl with Troia (just for tradition's sake) and throw in someone else for Johnny Panic and it'd be a super interesting lineup, I think.
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cqCxi03I0n4/ULMkO__VlSI/AAAAAAAANm0/rhgtWJzvqZw/s1600/01.jpg[/IMG]
Also, could you imagine how rad Steve Skorce on a Titans book would be?[/QUOTE]
I wish Badrock could be a member of the Titans because I'd add him to a team with:
Arsenal
Redwing
Fairchild
Mirage
Conner Kent
Argent
Yeah Skorce would be great but I would get my hopes dashed because I would want Alan Moore to write it lol
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OG members, does that include the "original 1960s era folks and the 1970s pre-1982 era?
Maybe it would be a time to reboot characters who have less time in the post 1982 eras. Kind of forgotten folks. Aqualad wasn't part of the 1980s reboot. Neither was Speedy/Arsenal.
there should be teams in other cities besides, uh, New York City, Happy Harbor areas.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5879470]One thing I really am not impressed by is these characters becoming Justice League members.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the character for me. Makes perfect sense in my mind that Wally and Vic would both join the League. Not so much Nightwing or Raven.
I don't need the League to be the team that Titans "graduate" to, and the way DC handles that dynamic, with the Titans treated like sidekicks despite all evidence to the contrary, is hurting the brand. But there's also no denying that the League is the world's greatest heroes; the best heroes on earth working together. By definition they're the best of the best; not even Michael Jordan era Chicago Bulls "best" but like, 1992 Olympic basketball Dream Team "best."
But that doesn't mean other teams have no value, despite what DC seems to think, and the notion that a Titan has to graduate from anything only illustrates the many problems with the franchise.
In any case, assuming that all the Titans have to "grow up" and join the League is painfully wrong headed, I think, and ignores the characters and what may be best for them and their characters. But likewise, we shouldn't claim that none of the Titans should join the League.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5879470]One thing I really am not impressed by is these characters becoming Justice League members. The idea that they need to move on from being Titans to being Justice League members--B squad Justice League members at that--is the type of thinking I feel is kicking Titans in the gutter. Also, the Justice League is probably always going to go back to being Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Aquaman. It may momentarily deviate from that like the JLI days, but it will likely [I]always[/I] go back to that. If you try to shoehorn someone else into that spot with them, the likelihood is it will not stick and they will get kicked out. We already saw this happen with Cyborg. So, I really don't think the Titans characters would fully "graduate" to the Justice League anyway. If someone had a really direct and strong creative vision specifically for that to happen, and if the comics didn't change hands as much as they do, maaaaaaybe something like that would happen, but I don't see it happening realistically.
They are a unique gang of heroes. They are their own thing and I think that should be celebrated, not treated like something one needs to get away from to become a part of short lived, constantly shuffled Justice League B squads.
Having said all that, I really don't think things should be presented as an either/or scenario. That's just putting false rules on things. They can still be Titans while doing other stuff. For example, Dick Grayson can still do what he does in Nightwing while also being a Titan.[/QUOTE]
I liked how James Robinson put most of the Titans in the Justice League in his run. I don't know how well received that run was but I enjoyed it. It was so refreshing seeing the legacy characters make up most of the league.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5887182][B]However[/B], I don't see Cyborg [B]really[/B] fitting in as a staple Justice League member that you can count on to be there (Fire is not that) because he doesn't bring much in the way of his own unique mythology to the team (neither does Fire).[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree; Vic doesn't have enough of his own mythos to be considered a "legitimate" Leaguer in the same way the Big 7 are (some fans will never accept him there regardless, just because he didn't start there, but screw those guys :p ). But I was talking more from a creative, character-focused perspective. The League are the best of the best, and that's something I feel Vic would want to be a part of. I mean, he wanted to join the NFL, and the League are reigning Super Bowl champions. Vic certainly loves and appreciates the Titans and his friendships there shouldn't be ignored, but I can easily see him wanting to join the League.
It'll take a long and successful solo run before fans allow that to happen, but as far as Vic's character is concerned? I think that's the place he'd want to be now. And none of that is to diminish the Titans; they could be a great book and a important part of the hero community if DC pulled their heads out of their asses, but I think Vic wants that Super Bowl ring yknow?
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[QUOTE=Immortal Weapon;5887236]I liked how James Robinson put most of the Titans in the Justice League in his run. [B]I don't know how well received that run was but I enjoyed it. It was so refreshing seeing the legacy characters make up most of the league.[/B][/QUOTE]
His cheap shot at McDuffie (who he replaced) didn't win him any fans. He was given more freedom than McDuffie including who he could put on the roster.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5887182] Cyborg has not even had one good run, IMO. Until and unless he has that, I think he will face a lot of opposition from segments of fans because he won't seem particularly legitimate. [I]He doesn't face that with the Teen Titans because he was specifically created to be there with contemporaries like Starfire and Raven.[/I] [/QUOTE]
The reason why Cyborg does not face that is because on Teen Titans he was written as an equal and not Batman's internet or the bus or the reason to keep John Stewart out or the token black guy.
If Johns had INVESTED even 50% of the effort he did with Hal-different story.
As for his solos-that falls on the editor who screwed up both books. There is a reason no one has hired him after he got fired from DC. Despite a resume that says he can work anywhere.
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[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5888322]
It also highlights the strong likelihood that he was placed there for racial purposes. And while diversity is all well and good, I think it works best when there is genuine substance behind it, and falls short when it is overly contrived, obviously done to hit quotas, preachy, or heavy handed. I see Cyborg's inclusion on Justice League as driven by a quota with no genuine interest behind it from the creators.[/QUOTE]
I think you're partially right. It seems obvious that DC/Johns wanted to replace J'onn with a person of color, but they could have gone with any number of characters for that (Vixen, Mr. Terrific, Vibe, Doc Light, etc). Vic might not have much solo material behind him but he *is* a quality character with a deep history, ties across the DCU, and a powerset unique among the Leaguers. Add in the stuff Johns introduced with the Motherbox, the Metal Men, the reboot hype, and whatever else, and Vic was well positioned to level up and earn the legitimacy one needs to be a League staple. It was never gonna happen overnight, but we've seen publishers successfully push characters to new heights and Vic could have achieved the same without too awful much effort.
Unfortunately, DC dropped the ball and squandered every single erg of potential the whole thing had going for it. No solo title with the launch of the New52, sidelined in the JL and treated like a sidekick or a taxi or both, eventually shunted off to a League B-title, and then quietly kicked out of the League brand completely. Oh, and of course all that rich history he has was wiped out and ignored by the reboot, without anything new put in its place beyond a short-lived and halfassed friendship with Shazam. Vic, the poor bastard, he never had a chance.
And none of it is the fault of the character, nor is it a declaration of Cyborg's limitations. Vic is at least as capable, powerful and competent as any core Leaguer, and just as experienced. From a in-universe perspective he's absolutely League material and earned a spot on the roster. But that potential means nothing when DC itself can't get out of the way of their own nostalgia.
Who knows, maybe now that Didio is gone things will improve and the strict hierarchy of the DCU will become a little more flexible. If that happens, maybe someone will find a purpose for Vic and the other Titans that involves more than just doing poor retellings of Wolfman. Wally and Dick are getting treated better already, can the rest of the Titans be that far behind?
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Sorry for the double post but this bit came back to me just now and for some reason reminded me of an idea...
[QUOTE=Bill Laimbeer;5887182] Even if they aren't marketed as Earth's Mightiest Heroes, I don't feel they're diminished by that. But that's just me. [B]Granted, I will admit that the Marvel and DC Universes aren't the same. [/B][/QUOTE]
Indeed. DC's hierarchy is much more strict than Marvel's. And that's a problem because not only does DC view the League as the Dream Team, they *treat* the League like that, and everything else gets about as much love and attention as....whoever won the bronze medal in basketball that year; little to none. Nobody gets to break that glass ceiling, but we're four or five generations deep into the DCU now and for the Titans, many of whom have been active just as long as their mentors (closing in on 15, 20 years now), who grew up doing things the Leaguers never imagined until they were adults.....for the NTT generation not to have surpassed their mentors by now, two generations later, looks damn near incompetent.
The Titans don't have to be the "world's greatest heroes" to be an excellent, compelling book with competent, powerful heroes that matters to the wider DCU. But DC doesn't put that much effort into anything that isn't #1. Maybe the new regime will prove different. But if they don't?
If you can't break the glass ceiling, then why not just raise the roof?
The League has been off-world a ton in recent years. They've been in space and time, alternate dimensions and higher realities. They broke the damn Source Wall, for gods sake. They might still live and work on earth, but as a team they don't spend much time here these days.
So maybe just...lean into that. Establish the League as the team that protects earth before earth even knows it's in danger. And have some of the Titans, maybe some Infinity Inc'ers and other young heroes, form a new team to fill the vacuum. Let these guys, Titans Inc or Titans of Justice or whatever the crap you wanna call them, let them be earth's mightiest heroes, and the League can be the universe's greatest heroes.
It works with this "elder statesman" undertone some of the Leaguers are shifting towards (like Clark and Bruce) and plays into things like Jon Kent being earth's Superman while Clark fries bigger fish out in space. It'd give the NTT heroes the space to grow and a new status quo and roster that respects all involved. The League retains superiority, but as far as earth goes the Titans are the ones keeping the peace. And because it's earth and tons of big trouble starts here, the Titans will still be saving all of reality and doing big things, exactly like the League does, while the League is out there wrangling the deeper cosmos.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;5889806]Sorry for the double post but this bit came back to me just now and for some reason reminded me of an idea...
Indeed. DC's hierarchy is much more strict than Marvel's. And that's a problem because not only does DC view the League as the Dream Team, they *treat* the League like that, and everything else gets about as much love and attention as....whoever won the bronze medal in basketball that year; little to none. Nobody gets to break that glass ceiling, but we're four or five generations deep into the DCU now and for the Titans, many of whom have been active just as long as their mentors (closing in on 15, 20 years now), who grew up doing things the Leaguers never imagined until they were adults.....for the NTT generation not to have surpassed their mentors by now, two generations later, looks damn near incompetent.
The Titans don't have to be the "world's greatest heroes" to be an excellent, compelling book with competent, powerful heroes that matters to the wider DCU. But DC doesn't put that much effort into anything that isn't #1. Maybe the new regime will prove different. But if they don't?
If you can't break the glass ceiling, then why not just raise the roof?
The League has been off-world a ton in recent years. They've been in space and time, alternate dimensions and higher realities. They broke the damn Source Wall, for gods sake. They might still live and work on earth, but as a team they don't spend much time here these days.
So maybe just...lean into that. Establish the League as the team that protects earth before earth even knows it's in danger. And have some of the Titans, maybe some Infinity Inc'ers and other young heroes, form a new team to fill the vacuum. Let these guys, Titans Inc or Titans of Justice or whatever the crap you wanna call them, let them be earth's mightiest heroes, and the League can be the universe's greatest heroes.
It works with this "elder statesman" undertone some of the Leaguers are shifting towards (like Clark and Bruce) and plays into things like Jon Kent being earth's Superman while Clark fries bigger fish out in space. It'd give the NTT heroes the space to grow and a new status quo and roster that respects all involved. The League retains superiority, but as far as earth goes the Titans are the ones keeping the peace. And because it's earth and tons of big trouble starts here, the Titans will still be saving all of reality and doing big things, exactly like the League does, while the League is out there wrangling the deeper cosmos.[/QUOTE]
I believe dc is already heading in this direction but with a new generation Justice League, what that roster will look like we'll see.
