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[QUOTE=Sardorim;511310]No she shouldn't because she cannot be redeemed. All she can do is serve her punishment and actually try and do good things for the people she hurt and even than it will never make up for genocide. Furthermore, doing good things doesn't erase having done bad things. If Scarlet Witch does good things for Mutantkind than she will have earned the right to be tolerated but she should never expect to be forgiven for genocide nor should she ever take up a moral high ground when it comes to Mutantkind considering that all the things she has done.[/QUOTE]
Well if she isn't going to redeem herself and she isn't going to die, you may as well have her quit being a super hero and have her become a nun or something. What's the point of the character if she never progress beyond a point where a lot of people find her unsympathetic or insufferable? It seems like none of that is doing the characters any favors. If she cannot be redeemed how does she progress as a character and if she does not progress as a character, what purpose does she serve at this point?
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I actually really feel for the dedicated Wanda fans. To have your character questionably-written in a really destructive way, see her vanish from the books for years, and then, in a crowning indignity, have her return and 'new' portrayal handled in such a ham-fisted way has got to suck. A lot.
That said, 'new' Wanda's pretty loathsome (I actually quite enjoyed original vintage Wanda, or what I read of her), and as she's not, well, real, I see no real need to take a more charitable approach towards the character. I'm not going to go rub her fans' noses in it, but she is what she is (currently). If Marvel had really wanted to do the character a favour they'd have given her to Hickman and kept her out of X-territory entirely, but they seem more interested in using her as a polarizing figure.
I'm getting rather tired of Marvel going "Dance, monkeys, dance!" and the fanbase obliging, to be honest. But if you find that an entertaining hobby, more power to you.
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[QUOTE=antiochene;512133]I actually really feel for the dedicated Wanda fans. To have your character questionably-written in a really destructive way, see her vanish from the books for years, and then, in a crowning indignity, have her return and 'new' portrayal handled in such a ham-fisted way has got to suck. A lot.
That said, 'new' Wanda's pretty loathsome (I actually quite enjoyed original vintage Wanda, or what I read of her), and as she's not, well, real, I see no real need to take a more charitable approach towards the character. I'm not going to go rub her fans' noses in it, but she is what she is (currently). If Marvel had really wanted to do the character a favour they'd have given her to Hickman and kept her out of X-territory entirely, but they seem more interested in using her as a polarizing figure.
I'm getting rather tired of Marvel going "Dance, monkeys, dance!" and the fanbase obliging, to be honest. But if you find that an entertaining hobby, more power to you.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I feel for her fans too.
I personally don't care for her one bit to be honest but I am annoyed and disgusted about what Bendis is doing with X-23 and that is [B]nothing[/B] compared to what they have done to Wanda.
If I would be fan of her I would have likely quit buying comics altogether after seeing my favorite characters dragged into to the dirt that hard. We can only hope that not more characters will suffer the same fate as her.
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[QUOTE=Sardorim;511366]
You're twisting things and ignoring the facts.
Cyclops didn't want to be a Phoenix Host - it was forced upon him by the Avengers against his will. Yet despite that when he became one he set out to make the World a better place and it was going well. Than the Avengers kept attacking him because the Governments, fearing that they'll lose their power and reason to exist in a world made Utopia, demanded the Avengers help them and the Avengers obey'd like loyal dogs. Cyclops didn't kill Xavier in cold blood, he was being attacked by nearly all the mainline Avengers + Xavier and he only lashed out because of the Phoenix and in self-defense as Xavier was LITERALLY trying to lobotomize him and Emma.
Nothing like Magneto as Magneto would never have put up with Humankind still treating Mutants like trash nor would he have made the world a better place for everyone. Instead he would have only made the world a better place for Mutantkind. That and Cyclops was winning.[/QUOTE]
One, replace "make the world a better place" with "make the world into what he thought it should be" which takes away a little thing called freedom.
Cyclops was arrogant enough to think he could control it. The Avengers didn't force him, they accidentally 'broke' the PF, after Cyclops bull-headedly pushed Hope into doing something she [I]was not ready for, [/I] because he was obsessed with reigniting the mutant gene at all costs.
He killed Xavier because Xavier stood in the way of what he wanted. Do you remember the conversation on the remade Utopia, long before Cyke "lost control"? Even Mags commented on Scott's extremes, both before the PF and after.
Cyke was going nutters long before the PF. It started from M-Day, which correlates back to Wanda. That's when he went bunker mode, segregated the rest of the mutants, eventually declared them their own nation, etc.
The thing is, the PF is gone and he's still trying to justify his revolutionary stance. Once the crazy/Doom (pick a version of the story) got out of Wanda's head, she realized what she'd done. Cyclops still hasn't.
It's also still hypocritical to say one case of the crazies gets a pass cause he was under stress, but the other doesn't because she wasn't? I guess dead kids don't count?
Having said all that, I'm in the camp of if one of them is irredeemable, so is the other. If one is just a fallen hero under mitigating circumstances, then so is the other. /shrug
[QUOTE=Kieran_Frost;511466]
It's ALSO worth noting... that plan involved forcing everyone to take back their mutant powers ([B]again making huge, life changing decisions for millions because SHE thinks it's the right thing, which does sort of imply she hadn't learnt her lesson the first time)[/B].[/QUOTE]
Highly amusing that Cyclops did the exact same thing in AvX which people consider his good work...hahaha. I guess it's ok if he's a dictator, though.
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[QUOTE=Juggernaut Punch;512098]She can acknowledge that she did something horrible and stop being so nonchalant about it. It's really off-putting to see her go "Geez, you guys are still talking about that? Get over it already."[/QUOTE]
With how much has happened between then (HoM) and now, its not entirely out of the realm of understanding that she might be frustrated by people still holding this over her head. I mean, yes, she made a horrific mistake and since then she's tried to make up for it when and where she can (when opposing parties will actually allow her to participate in attempting to make up for it that is) like reactivating the mutant race, both independently and via partnership with Hope and the Phoenix force, and then joining the Unity squad.
Its just that.... the way she's written is so unlikable. I'm sure X-fans want to see her routinely apologetic and deeply sympathetic at all times, but thats not realistic either. Everyone has a breaking point and can only apologize (in the Children's Crusade for example) so many times before you snap back and express that frustration (as illustrated with Rogue for example).
Absolutely nobody seems willing to entertain the idea of forgiving her, outside of a few Avengers and maybe Alex Summers(?) --but the way he's written (during his departure from X-factor in particular haha) he wasn't all that upset about M-day to begin with.
I'm not necessarily supporting Wanda here, just --- I kind of understand where she's coming from in terms of "You're gonna throw that in my face every time you see me??" -- probably because I see/feel the same way about Cyclops with Xavier's death etc.
I can't really justify being annoyed and angry at how Scott is being treated, when Wanda is receiving the same sort of abuse(?)
[B]sundowhn [/B]makes some really good points.
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[QUOTE=Fokken;512259]With how much has happened between then (HoM) and now, its not entirely out of the realm of understanding that she might be frustrated by people still holding this over her head. I mean, yes, she made a horrific mistake and since then she's tried to make up for it when and where she can (when opposing parties will actually allow her to participate in attempting to make up for it that is) like reactivating the mutant race, both independently and via partnership with Hope and the Phoenix force, and then joining the Unity squad.
Its just that.... the way she's written is so unlikable. I'm sure X-fans want to see her routinely apologetic and deeply sympathetic at all times, but thats not realistic either. Everyone has a breaking point and can only apologize (in the Children's Crusade for example) so many times before you snap back and express that frustration (as illustrated with Rogue for example).
Absolutely nobody seems willing to entertain the idea of forgiving her, outside of a few Avengers and maybe Alex Summers(?) --but the way he's written (during his departure from X-factor in particular haha) he wasn't all that upset about M-day to begin with.
I'm not necessarily supporting Wanda here, just --- I kind of understand where she's coming from in terms of "You're gonna throw that in my face every time you see me??" -- probably because I see/feel the same way about Cyclops with Xavier's death etc.
I can't really justify being annoyed and angry at how Scott is being treated, when Wanda is receiving the same sort of abuse(?)
suhndown makes some really good points.[/QUOTE]
That is the problem Wanda isn't receiving the same kind of abuse as Scott even though she deserves it more.
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[QUOTE=Fokken;512259]
Its just that.... the way she's written is so unlikable. I'm sure X-fans want to see her routinely apologetic and deeply sympathetic at all times, but thats not realistic either. Everyone has a breaking point and can only apologize (in the Children's Crusade for example) so many times before you snap back and express that frustration (as illustrated with Rogue for example).
Absolutely nobody seems willing to entertain the idea of forgiving her, outside of a few Avengers and maybe Alex Summers(?) --but the way he's written (during his departure from X-factor in particular haha) he wasn't all that upset about M-day to begin with.
[/QUOTE]
she doesn't want to be forgiven. she just wants everyone to get over it already. she walked up to one of her victims in the x-factor preview and sounded annoyed that lorna hasn't just gotten over it.
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[QUOTE=AcesX1X;512276]she doesn't want to be forgiven. she just wants everyone to get over it already. she walked up to one of her victims in the x-factor preview and sounded annoyed that lorna hasn't just gotten over it.[/QUOTE]
That too, Wanda doesn't want to be forgiven only her fans want her to be.
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[QUOTE=AcesX1X;512276]she doesn't want to be forgiven. she just wants everyone to get over it already. she walked up to one of her victims in the x-factor preview and sounded annoyed that lorna hasn't just gotten over it.[/QUOTE]
That actually seems to be accurate. She's probably reached a point of self acceptance and self realization that ....nobody is going to let her forget it and nobody is going forgive it so.... she just comes across as annoyed.
I'm not saying its right. I'm just saying its understandable.
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[QUOTE=Carabas;511626]It seems unfair to eternally hold an innocent fictional character responsible for the actions of her writer (who was only following Quesada's orders anyway).
It's not as if it was even a good story, worthy of remembering. It was barely a story at all. It was an editorial fiat to cut down on the number of mutants in the Marvel Universe.[/QUOTE]
I blame Quesada for the mandate on mutants and Bendis for the utterly ham-handed way the story was executed and how character continuity and personality was ignored to accomplish it.
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Doesn't matter. Someone will always cry and whine about it. She wasnt even sane when she did this...she shouldn't be harping on it...Jean Grey never did. Cyclops didn't.
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[QUOTE=Fokken;512285]That actually seems to be accurate. She's probably reached a point of self acceptance and self realization that ....nobody is going to let her forget it and nobody is going forgive it so.... she just comes across as annoyed.
I'm not saying its right. I'm just saying its understandable.[/QUOTE]
there's nothing understandable about being annoyed with people who you maimed. that's psychopathic behavior.
[QUOTE=Doomuniverse;512303]She wasnt even sane when she did this...she shouldn't be harping on it...Jean Grey never did.[/QUOTE]
jean grey also had the decency to suicide herself to atone for her crimes. wanda ran away to mountain wundagore to play house for a few years.
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[QUOTE=Rochedalaix;512272]That is the problem Wanda isn't receiving the same kind of abuse as Scott even though she deserves it more.[/QUOTE]
No surprise..Cyclops actually murdered one of the greatest heroes in history and he was practically bragging about it afterwards.
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[QUOTE=Doomuniverse;512323]No surprise..Cyclops actually murdered one of the greatest heroes in history and he was practically bragging about it afterwards.[/QUOTE]
charles xavier was a monster who perished in the act of mentally abusing his adopted son.
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No. She is beyond redemption.
