-
[QUOTE=Lee;4422089]The premise of Batman Beyond was that it was a spin-off set in the future. DC/Warner Bros didn't age up and replace Bruce Wayne in their entire product line, it was just a self-contained show in its own bubble.
Legion of Super-Heroes is set in the future. The core DC Universe line of comics will never catch up to that time frame. It's a completely different scenario from having Bruce Wayne cycle through a dozen Robins in the core, present day DC Universe.[/QUOTE]
I'm not whether you're deliberately moving the goal posts, or whether you're just missing my point. But IMO, the (continuing) successes of both lines (LoSH might not be printing at the moment, but it's return is strongly favoured) makes it clear to me that DC's reliance on rehashes of the Silver Age characters as their mainstays which limits character growth of both them and their successors is IP-focused corporate mandate (greed/laziness) not an inherent inability of [I]good writers[/I] to move the narrative on from there if given the chance.
-
[QUOTE=Shamrock Holmes;4422096]I'm not whether you're deliberately moving the goal posts, or whether you're just missing my point. But IMO, the (continuing) successes of both lines (LoSH might not be printing at the moment, but it's return is strongly favoured) makes it clear to me that DC's reliance on rehashes of the Silver Age characters as their mainstays which limits character growth of both them and their successors is IP-focused corporate mandate (greed/laziness) not an inherent inability of [I]good writers[/I] to move the narrative on from there if given the chance.[/QUOTE]
I genuinely don't see how you're connecting the dots, why the Legion of Super-Heroes' existence means that DC should keep on introducing new Robins and Kid Flashes indefinitely.
Legion of Super-Heroes are also Silver Age mainstays.
-
[QUOTE=Lee;4422157]I genuinely don't see how you're connecting the dots, why the Legion of Super-Heroes' existence means that DC should keep on introducing new Robins and Kid Flashes indefinitely.
Legion of Super-Heroes are also Silver Age mainstays.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I suppose that it doesn't necessarily mean that we need new postholders of [I]existing identities[/I], but does support the idea that new teen heroes (with sidekicks being the majority IMO) [I]should[/I] be added on a regular basis to support the ongoing tradition, and personally I think it also makes sense that most taken on an "individual identity" [I]after[/I] their sidekick phase as a mark of their transistion to adulthood (as established back in the 80s with three of the most famous DC sidekicks (Dick Grayson, Roy Harper and Garth)).
As far as the LoSH goes, I agree that they are [I]originated[/I] in the Silver Age, but they aren't 'frozen' [I]in[/I] their SA portrayals to the same extent that a lot of ED editoral and the some of the fandom seem to want the JLA to be.
-
I'm cool with letting the sidekicks take over. The novelty will be fun for a while.
-
[QUOTE=Lee;4420919]Then people would be hell-bent on aging up Damian and Wallace, and we'd end up with a new Robin, a new Kid Flash. This can't keep happening indefinitely.
The core heroes are fine, there's a place for them. The teenage sidekicks are fine, there's a place for them. It's the former sidekicks that are the problem, because they don't fill a specific niche. Nightwing caught on and Wally worked when he was re-positioned as a core hero, but the rest floundered when they were aged up and replaced.
Why should DC go out of their way to repeat this mistake?
And what is there to be gained? What is the point of an adult Impulse? What would make Cassie Sandsmark more compelling as an adult? What is the appeal of an adult Kon-El? How do you distinguish a team of characters in their early-mid 20s from a team of characters in their mid-late 20s?[/QUOTE]
Wallace,Damian etc. are ok, because you can leave them in their age or just let them become 2 years older or so, because if they are 13 or 15 isnt a big difference.
The gain is that you have heroes for EVERY age group AND especially for the SUPER-FAMILY it would be perfect, because they dont have anyone for this age group.
So Kon El could be the NIGHTWING of the SUPER-FAMILY.
You already have Jonathan,Wallace,Damian.... for the TEENAGE GROUP, so it would be just perfect to let Tim,Cassie,Conner,Bart.... grow and get NEW IDENTITIES...
There is no point in having 2 ROBINS in the Batman Series..
Let Tim,Kon,Bart....go to another City and leave Damian,Jon and Wallace with the Bruce,Barry,Clark....
And another GAIN is that you simply have more freedom, because if I say the truth, I PERSONALLY DONT like YJ 2019 so much, I prefered the more mature TT of Johns.
-
[QUOTE=Kon93;4421409]Adult as in 19 to 22 years old could work quite easily Imo.
They are very different from their older namesakes, and they can be shown to do and go in very different directions than the way the older classic guys do.
Kon for instance doesn't need to be a hero in the classic hero way, he could be a agent for Cadmus or the whole damn YJ team could be more secret or covert[/QUOTE]
I personally would just use the Nightwing Way...
Taking NEW CODE-NAMES:
Wallace is Kid Flash
Jonathan is Superboy
Damian is Robin
So for Bart,Kon and Tim it should be now the time to move on...
I dont understand why Damian and Tim need to be in the Batman Series.....
Just say that Tim says that Bruce now has Damian and its time to move on, just like Nightwing did.
I mean its natural for me that Tim would move out, together with Stephanie, so its more freedom for him, also more freedom for Damian etc.
We already had TT, so it feels like a step back to YJ, Kon fought against Superboy Prime and Doomsday so they should be more independent and be in a mature, serious Series with big villains like Deathstroke etc.
I would just take Tim,Kon,Cassie,Bart-give them new CODE-NAMES let them be 22 Years old so they have more freedom, then add Blue Beetle,Traci 13 etc. and maybe also JL Members who are prominent but doesnt get used so much like Vixen and build up a new Team...
-
[QUOTE=Lee;4422024]When Wally became The Flash, it really was a new idea. But it was a bumpy road at first - for a couple of years he only appeared in Titans, and it took a year or two for his solo series to really click into place. It could only really happen in the first place because they killed off Barry Allen and wrote Jay Garrick out of the series. (I think people forget that Jay was gone for 6 years. That's 1 year longer than Wally was gone from New 52 to Rebirth.)
With today's smaller audience, it would be more of a risk, and the idea wouldn't be as fresh. Today's comic audience has seen the replacement hero idea play out numerous times, and they know that 95% of the time it doesn't stick.
In the end, the predecessors almost always get brought back. Now we have 2 Blue Beetles existing at the same time, 7 human Green Lanterns, 4 characters called The Flash. It becomes unwieldy, because there's simply not enough space to give them all their time to shine on a monthly basis.
I disagree. Characters can grow without aging. I just watched a film set over the course of 3 days, and all the lead characters were in different places at the end of the film than they were at the beginning. And I don't think character growth, as you're describing it, is even necessary for a character to have depth or complexity. The entire cast of Charles Schulz's Peanuts is more complex than most DC characters, and none of them overcame their foibles.
A character like Impulse is compelling as is. Would turning him into an adult make Impulse more interesting? Does a character with a short attention span and low impulse control make more sense as a teenager or an adult? Would he even still be the same character if he overcame those foibles? What would be left?
I don't think ambitious or risky writing requires turning a kid character into an adult character, an adult character into an an elderly character, or for a young character to start wearing an older character's clothes.
I don't think "10 years from now, Robin will be 1 year older" is a strong enough selling point for a line of comics. If DC were going to do this, then the separate line going by in real-time would be a better selling point. But the approach to writing would have to change, there could no longer be 6 issue arcs that take place over a single week. But what would the starting point be? Superman's first day? The formation of the Justice League? Where we are now, with Damian Wayne as Robin?[/QUOTE]
Ok:
1.) The characters will also have more developed character traits etc.
If you read Johns TT Series you see that BART ALLEN (IMPULSE) was a MATURE but still funny character...
For example Donna Troy also thougt that in one panel...
Its not simply being older but also becoming more mature...
I also prefer Kid Flash (BART) over IMPULSE (Bart)
2.) This being crowded is one of the reasons for growing...So Damian for example becomes Robin and Tim moves to another town, adopting another CODE-NAME etc.
3.) ITS NOT REPLACEMENT, but its the idea of becoming older and getting NEW CODE-NAMES,BECOMING MATURE,FIGHTING MORE SERIOUS VILLAINS etc. etc.
DRAGONBALL for example showed it PERFECTLY how it could work...Son Gohan,Son Goten,Trunks...became older and became great characters on their own, powerful enough to take on the same villains as their fathers....
Tims Generation is stuck in the middle, but they have fought villains who are as powerful as Clarks,Bruce,Wally (Barry) most powerful ones...
Kon should be able to take on Doomsday,Mongul etc.
Bart to take on Zoom,Reverse Flash etc.
-
[QUOTE=Masterff;4428909]Wallace,Damian etc. are ok, because you can leave them in their age or just let them become 2 years older or so, because if they are 13 or 15 isnt a big difference.
The gain is that you have heroes for EVERY age group AND especially for the SUPER-FAMILY it would be perfect, because they dont have anyone for this age group.
So Kon El could be the NIGHTWING of the SUPER-FAMILY.[/QUOTE]If you really like to cover al the age groups, I think it would be better to do something like:
- pre teens/early teen: Daimans geneartion
- mid to late teens: Tims generation
- 20 something: Dicks Generation
The SUPER-Family member or Dicks generation would imo be Supergirl
-
[QUOTE=godisawesome;4421753]I’d say the thing to be gained is, in theory, a repeat of the success of Wally West as the Flash of you get the correct writer.
Moving a character beyond their initial archetype and striking towards new ground comes with intrinsic benefits [I]if the quality of writing is good.[/I] Depth and complexity comes with allowing characters to age and grow, no matter what generation they are: Veteran Campaigner Batman is, in some ways, more interesting than Rookie Batman.
The trick comes with being willing to take a risk based more in ambitious writing than artwork and editorial fiat. Even though DC can observe the benefits and success of stuff like Wally as Flash and Dick as Batman, and arguably the benefits of having Barry and Hal replace Jay and Alan, your still asking someone to embrace evolution and change for an IP that they probably feel is safely exploited with a static status quo and a refusal to recognize even the passage of “comic book time.”
So a compromise would probably be to have two sets of books: one that proceeds at a very slow but still progressive and chronological pace where authors can be ambitious and risk taking with major changes, and one where the ambition is more centered on older character in a floating timeline.[/QUOTE]
Well written..Its not about replacing characters, but to develop characters and let them become older,more mature etc.
Kon,Tim,Cassie... were members of TT and took on Doomsday,Superboy Prime,Deathstroke etc.
Its a step backward to be in YJ again and Impulse became more immature than he was during TT...
Tims Generation is stuck in the middle between Titans and Teen Titans and they should be as powerful, as experienced etc. as the Titans and be the "CROWN-PRINCES" of their Hero-Family..
Conner should be now near a 22 year old Clark and be able and fight also against Superman Villains...
I am also not such a big Fan of Currrent YJ because I think they should be in a mature Series and I think that a Series with a 22-25 Year old Team consisting of:
-Conner
-Cassie
-Tim
-Bart
-Blue Beetle
-Vixen
-Secret
-Mia
-Traci13
-Vixen
or so would be nice to read and have also success....
TT from Johns was GREAT because Kon El,Cassie,Bart,Tim.... became more mature and Kon fought against Doomsday and Superboy Prime...and they displayed him as very powerful...
I mean DRAGONBALL is also great here, Son Gohan,Son Goten,Trunks are displayed there as very powerful, maybe even more than their fathers...
-
[QUOTE=Masterff;4428932]Well written..Its not about replacing characters, but to develop characters and let them become older,more mature etc.
Kon,Tim,Cassie... were members of TT and took on Doomsday,Superboy Prime,Deathstroke etc.
Its a step backward to be in YJ again and Impulse became more immature than he was during TT...
Tims Generation is stuck in the middle between Titans and Teen Titans and they should be as powerful, as experienced etc. as the Titans and be the "CROWN-PRINCES" of their Hero-Family..
Conner should be now near a 22 year old Clark and be able and fight also against Superman Villains...
I am also not such a big Fan of Currrent YJ because I think they should be in a mature Series and I think that a Series with a 22-25 Year old Team consisting of:
-Conner
-Cassie
-Tim
-Bart
-Blue Beetle
-Vixen
-Secret
-Mia
-Traci13
-Vixen
or so would be nice to read and have also success....
TT from Johns was GREAT because Kon El,Cassie,Bart,Tim.... became more mature and Kon fought against Doomsday and Superboy Prime...and they displayed him as very powerful...
I mean DRAGONBALL is also great here, Son Gohan,Son Goten,Trunks are displayed there as very powerful, maybe even more than their fathers...[/QUOTE]
They were more 'mature' during Johns run, but some of his other decisions set the stage for character derailment under the writers that followed him. The current YJ comic is less 'dark and mature' than Johns TT because the cast needed a reset after all the crappy decisions regarding their characters over the years. People like to praise stuff because its 'dark and mature' but 'dark and mature' does not always equal good.
YJ being light hearted right now is a good thing considering the state of DC comics. I do not want a mature YJ with the current people in charge. They'll wind up like the Dick's generation and the NTT cast who are basically getting culled/derailed in the upcoming months.
-
[QUOTE=Masterff;4428920]Ok:
1.) The characters will also have more developed character traits etc.
If you read Johns TT Series you see that BART ALLEN (IMPULSE) was a MATURE but still funny character...
For example Donna Troy also thougt that in one panel...
Its not simply being older but also becoming more mature...
I also prefer Kid Flash (BART) over IMPULSE (Bart)
2.) This being crowded is one of the reasons for growing...So Damian for example becomes Robin and Tim moves to another town, adopting another CODE-NAME etc.
3.) ITS NOT REPLACEMENT, but its the idea of becoming older and getting NEW CODE-NAMES,BECOMING MATURE,FIGHTING MORE SERIOUS VILLAINS etc. etc.[/quote]
I strongly disagree with this.
Bart doesn't need a new code-name, Impulse was his unique code-name from the beginning. When they turned him into the second Kid Flash, it robbed him of his unique name and unique costume.
Making him more mature was and is a bad move. The whole premise of the character is that he acts before he thinks, he has a short attention span, he can be naive and goofy. It's what made him a unique character in the DC Universe.
The DC Universe is stronger and more diverse when it has heroes who are mature, immature, upbeat, stoic, optimistic, pessimistic, smart, stupid, happy, sad. The more personality types the better. Taking every fun, silly or immature character and making them serious and mature, having them fight serial killers each month, it diminishes them. A Superboy story shouldn't be interchangeable with a Superman story, an Impulse story shouldn't be interchangeable with a Flash story and a Young Justice story shouldn't be interchangeable with a Justice League story.
