I still have no idea of how this is up for argument. We saw pretty clearly [i]in his own movie[/i] that Thor went from human strong to superhumanly strong when Mjolnir found him worthy. We know what being granted the power of Thor looks like, and that includes super strength.
[QUOTE=Fallman;4362980]I still have no idea of how this is up for argument. We saw pretty clearly [i]in his own movie[/i] that Thor went from human strong to superhumanly strong when Mjolnir found him worthy. We know what being granted the power of Thor looks like, and that includes super strength.[/QUOTE]
Here's why it is up for debate. I read your post and can't tell which side you're on. Shit is ambiguous.
I... What? Mjolnir gives the worthy super strength, along with the rest of Thor's power set. That's what we saw happen in the first movie with it.
Post-[i]Ragnarok[/i] Thor doesn't have to worry about getting depowered by the enchantment, but the hammer in question still has the enchantment from Thor's first movie. It's going to give the worthy the same power set it gave Thor.
Captain America seemed to boosted by Mjolnir.
He straight up knocked Thanos off his feet with his first swing of the hammer. Cap is strong but he’s not strong enough to do that without a stats boost of some sort.
Add in throwing lighting around and it seemed like he was wielding the power of Thor which is line with the enchantment.
[QUOTE=Fallman;4363487]I... What? Mjolnir gives the worthy super strength, along with the rest of Thor's power set. That's what we saw happen in the first movie with it.
Post-[i]Ragnarok[/i] Thor doesn't have to worry about getting depowered by the enchantment, but the hammer in question still has the enchantment from Thor's first movie. It's going to give the worthy the same power set it gave Thor.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that it is still ambiguous. I've accepted that Cap got a power boost. But how much? Do we just give him all of Thor's feats? We are still restricted to what we actually saw him do. We saw him fire lightning but we did not see an area of effect rain of lightning. WW would just block Cap's lightning with her bracelets. The strength and durability was not anything beyond what WW was displaying in the various movies and his speed was not even close to what she was displaying. So it really does not change the results of the fight at all.
[QUOTE=Powerboy;4363823]The problem is that it is still ambiguous. I've accepted that Cap got a power boost. But how much? Do we just give him all of Thor's feats? We are still restricted to what we actually saw him do. We saw him fire lightning but we did not see an area of effect rain of lightning. WW would just block Cap's lightning with her bracelets. The strength and durability was not anything beyond what WW was displaying in the various movies and his speed was not even close to what she was displaying. So it really does not change the results of the fight at all.[/QUOTE]
Except this fight is speed-equal, so that last bit isn't an edge to her.
If Cap gets Thor's strength, he's stronger than Diana. If he doesn't, he's a fair bit weaker.
If Cap gets Thor's durability, he's massively more durable than Diana. If he doesn't, he's... not. He's somewhat less durable than she is, but it's hard to say exactly how much.
Speed is equal.
Cap shows greater skill than Diana in their respective films. Not that Diana is bad at all, just that Cap's better.
Lastly, we get to equipment and powers. Mjolnir the self-guiding, flight-providing, always-returns-to-me, lightning-chucking hammer that ALSO has a ludicrous synergy with the Magic Frisbee Cap carries on his other arm - as repeatedly seen in Avengers movies - seems like a better combo than what Diana is bringing.
[QUOTE=big_adventure;4365221]Except this fight is speed-equal, so that last bit isn't an edge to her.
If Cap gets Thor's strength, he's stronger than Diana. If he doesn't, he's a fair bit weaker.
If Cap gets Thor's durability, he's massively more durable than Diana. If he doesn't, he's... not. He's somewhat less durable than she is, but it's hard to say exactly how much.
Speed is equal.
Cap shows greater skill than Diana in their respective films. Not that Diana is bad at all, just that Cap's better.
Lastly, we get to equipment and powers. Mjolnir the self-guiding, flight-providing, always-returns-to-me, lightning-chucking hammer that ALSO has a ludicrous synergy with the Magic Frisbee Cap carries on his other arm - as repeatedly seen in Avengers movies - seems like a better combo than what Diana is bringing.[/QUOTE]
True yet continues to illustrate the problem. For instance, did Cap at any point use the hammer to fly? Or are we just assuming he gets everything Thor could do whether Cap did it or not?
I had forgotten about the equalized speed but, at the same time, those bracelets are tailor made to defend against Mjolnir and turn those attacks against him.
[QUOTE=Powerboy;4365227]True yet continues to illustrate the problem. For instance, did Cap at any point use the hammer to fly? Or are we just assuming he gets everything Thor could do whether Cap did it or not?
I had forgotten about the equalized speed but, at the same time, those bracelets are tailor made to defend against Mjolnir and turn those attacks against him.[/QUOTE]
Getting hit with lightning doesn't do anything to him - he calls it right through his own body, just like Thor, in Endgame, and it doesn't hurt him. However, the brilliance of Mjolnir here is NOT the lightning, it is that Cap can come and challenge WW HtH with the shield using his superior skill and equalized speed, while the hammer flies around and attacks her from behind, repeatedly. The hammer definitely hits hard enough to hurt her, especially blind-siding her in the back of the head while her attention is stuck on the more skilled, larger and more agile foe in front of her who can block anything she tries to deliver with a shield that will no-sell her. Cap can ALSO use the Mjolinr/shield reaction for some additional hits, he does this in endgame as well.
I don't recall him using it to fly, but given that appears to be a power in the hammer, it would be harder to argue that it DOESN'T.
[QUOTE=big_adventure;4365309]I don't recall him using it to fly, but given that appears to be a power in the hammer, it would be harder to argue that it DOESN'T.[/QUOTE]
At the very least, Cap can throw the hammer and hang on, which is how Thor does it in the films most times. And this is a perfectly legitimate way to do accomplish "flight", given that numerous characters have, in fact, hung on to the hammer while it is in motion (Spider Man, Thor himself, Quicksilver technically, etc.).
[QUOTE=Twickster;4365326]At the very least, Cap can throw the hammer and hang on, which is how Thor does it in the films most times. And this is a perfectly legitimate way to do accomplish "flight", given that numerous characters have, in fact, hung on to the hammer while it is in motion (Spider Man, Thor himself, Quicksilver technically, etc.).[/QUOTE]
And Cap clearly has the ability to mentally control the hammer in flight, he does that.
[QUOTE=big_adventure;4365221]Except this fight is speed-equal, so that last bit isn't an edge to her.
If Cap gets Thor's strength, he's stronger than Diana. If he doesn't, he's a fair bit weaker.
If Cap gets Thor's durability, he's massively more durable than Diana. If he doesn't, he's... not. He's somewhat less durable than she is, but it's hard to say exactly how much.
Speed is equal.
Cap shows greater skill than Diana in their respective films. Not that Diana is bad at all, just that Cap's better.
Lastly, we get to equipment and powers. Mjolnir the self-guiding, flight-providing, always-returns-to-me, lightning-chucking hammer that ALSO has a ludicrous synergy with the Magic Frisbee Cap carries on his other arm - as repeatedly seen in Avengers movies - seems like a better combo than what Diana is bringing.[/QUOTE]
Massively more durable based on what? Also, just how close do you think Cap's durability when not boosted is to Diana's?
Shows greater skill? Last time this came up, Captain Morgan made some excellent points in Diana's favor that iirc you ended up conceeding? Keep in mind you have also said Thor is "waaay more skilled" than Cap even with no powers. I feel like this is a way for you to further that point.
Diana also has an unbreakable self guiding whip and an AoE generating, energy absorbing pair of bracers. She's not just sword and shield for gear.
LOL at all the desperate attempts here to neuter Wonder Woman by just eliminating speed, like all the rest then vanishes?
Power - [IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/QXQUCdMswn076/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Invulnerability- [url]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111127507/5896391-3901409094-giphy.gif[/url]
Skill / dexterity plus Laso on command- [url]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/93/76/da9376e4ebf4e27add299c797d504d41.gif[/url]
Strength -
legs [url]https://lilgripes.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/42aa0d3ab8507db535b455de08ac3bc7.gif[/url]
lift [IMG]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111324489/6078846-2522545015-tumbl.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Güicho;4361187]The worthy Wonder Woman catches hammer, then wields it against and crushes him.[/QUOTE]
Also forgot to mention, not only is she Worthy goddess, but yeah strength dexterity catches the hammer, and then takes his shield too...
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Eiz8hd1.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=big_adventure;4365309]Getting hit with lightning doesn't do anything to him - he calls it right through his own body, just like Thor, in Endgame, and it doesn't hurt him. However, the brilliance of Mjolnir here is NOT the lightning, it is that Cap can come and challenge WW HtH with the shield using his superior skill and equalized speed, while the hammer flies around and attacks her from behind, repeatedly. The hammer definitely hits hard enough to hurt her, especially blind-siding her in the back of the head while her attention is stuck on the more skilled, larger and more agile foe in front of her who can block anything she tries to deliver with a shield that will no-sell her. Cap can ALSO use the Mjolinr/shield reaction for some additional hits, he does this in endgame as well.
I don't recall him using it to fly, but given that appears to be a power in the hammer, it would be harder to argue that it DOESN'T.[/QUOTE]
Ares also can generate lightning and call it straight through him Ragnarok style. Redirected energy from the bracers did him in just fine suggesting it changes it or supes it up someway.
[QUOTE=Güicho;4365559]LOL desperate attempts to neuter Wonder Woman by just eliminating speed, like all the rest then vanishes?
Power - [IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/QXQUCdMswn076/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Invulnerability- [url]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111127507/5896391-3901409094-giphy.gif[/url]
Skill / dexterity plus Laso on command- [url]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/93/76/da9376e4ebf4e27add299c797d504d41.gif[/url]
Strength -
legs [url]https://lilgripes.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/42aa0d3ab8507db535b455de08ac3bc7.gif[/url]
lift [IMG]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111324489/6078846-2522545015-tumbl.gif[/IMG]
Also forgot to mention, not only is she Worthy goddess, but yeah strength dexterity catches the hammer, and then takes his shield too...
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Eiz8hd1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Cap with the hammer doesn't have any strength feat on the level of lifting a tank. At this point, it might as well just be Thor vs Wonder Woman since one side is insisting that all of Thor's feats count as Cap's feats whether he did them ort not. But then, if it was really Thor vs WW, there wouldn't be any justification for taking away her speed.
I'm just saying that if it's Cap vs. WW, then it's Cap's feats with the hammer. Otherwise, let's just argue Thor vs. WW.
WW: I am the shield and the sword in battle
Captain America: Hold my beer. :p