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[QUOTE=Covetous_One;5526369]What hard feelings? Mutants have every right to hate Wanda and want proper justice to be served. All I’m saying is don’t make it seem like that was her intention all along when events leading up to it where a factor and complex.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't in my mind
[QUOTE=useridgoeshere;5518311]There are better words than Pretender for her crimes but obviously she needs to be part of Krakoa’s lore. You can’t tell the history of Mutants nor the need for unity and a homeland by leaving out the single worst event in Mutant history. You can’t leave out the person who went to the world’s greatest supervillain, accepted the power from him to bring your kind to the edge of extinction with just three little words. And you can’t leave out that human “heroes” and alien empires are protecting her, think her actions no big deal and believe no punishment is deserved. Mutants need to always remember they’re all alone and no one thinks their near extinction matters.
I hope Rogue told everyone what she said - “Why was it so important that more mutants be born?”[/QUOTE]
I remember that statement from Wanda in Uncanny Avengers # 1, Volume 1. I found it to be a statement that could be interpreted more than one way. MY INTERPRETATION of Wanda's question was that she questioned what Rogue's motives for wanting more mutants born were. This was a question from a woman (Wanda) who after Children's Crusade and House of M before that), realized that too often throughout her entire life, she was used for her powers in the motives/self-interest of others (Magneto - more than twice, Immortus, Dr. Doom, High Evolutionary, That Which Endures, etc). Now, having become "woke" to much of the reality of her bring used by others (Wanda may not have been aware of the High Evolutionary experimentation on her and Pietro as small children or babies). She is also angry about a few things: 1) those who have used her up to that point 2) at herself for the damage she caused to her fellow Avengers AND the mutant community 3) for not being strong enough mentally/emotionally at that disastrous, tragic time to have been in control of herself which would've averted this tragic event. Add to that IMO her deep regret of the damage she caused, a touch of defensiveness having to endure the weight of what she did and what happened to others afterwards.
For me, Wanda was not saying or meaning more mutants should ever be born. She was questioning what others had to personally gain by more mutants being born. Coming from a person who had been used by others for the wrong reasons too often in her life, I found her question on point. Yet, for those who don't know her entire history, the question could be interpreted the wrong way because the reader may not know Wanda's motivation behind her statement without knowing the history I mentioned earlier.
[QUOTE=maximoffimpact;5526644]For me, Wanda was not saying or meaning more mutants should ever be born. She was questioning what others had to personally gain by more mutants being born. Coming from a person who had been used by others for the wrong reasons too often in her life, I found her question on point. Yet, for those who don't know her entire history, the question could be interpreted the wrong way because the reader may not know Wanda's motivation behind her statement without knowing the history I mentioned earlier.[/QUOTE]
I admit I rather agree with Wanda's beliefs: being born one way shouldn't be a shame, but shouldn't be a pride neither. It's not a achievement.
It doesn't mean I approve what Wanda did but I dislike absolutely Krakoa's racial nationalism.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5526828]I admit I rather agree with Wanda's beliefs: being born one way shouldn't be a shame, but shouldn't be a pride neither. It's not a achievement.
It doesn't mean I approve what Wanda did but I dislike absolutely Krakoa's racial nationalism.
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Taking pride in their mutandom is completely fine. Nothing wrong with loving what and who you are. Conformity is gross.
What's not fine is a person that's caused so much damage to mutants telling a mutant that she has no culture and that more of her kind don't have to be born.
I'm convinced Remender really wanted to make her look like a complete fool when he wrote that garbage.
[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;5526875]Taking pride in their mutandom is completely fine. Nothing wrong with loving what and who you are. Conformity is gross.
What's not fine is a person that's caused so much damage to mutants telling a mutant that she has no culture and that more of her kind don't have to be born.
I'm convinced Remender really wanted to make her look like a complete fool when he wrote that garbage.[/QUOTE]
I mean how Remender wrote Wanda she was, in my opinion unappealing, though the point is they didn’t have a shared culture all they had was a history of persecution and a lot of groups have experienced that. Now that mutants have Krakoa they do have a true culture, history, and way of life that they are crafting. Though I have to disagree about the “normal” human culture since normal is a relative term and what’s normal for some is not normal for others as mutants do have their own version of normal which is using and experiencing everything through their powers.
[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;5526875]Taking pride in their mutandom is completely fine. Nothing wrong with loving what and who you are. Conformity is gross.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between being fine with what you are and taking pride from something you are not responsible of. I have the impression that the “I'm proud of being mutant.” is just a reaction to “You should be ashamed of being mutant.”.
But, in Krakoa, it became “I'm proud of being mutant and it's better than being human.” and no one challenges that because everyone is mutant and there isn't any real conversation. It has become a “norm”.
I find unfortunate that Wanda is no longer a mutant because she was one of the ones of the most interesting “thinkers” on mutanthood and, now, she has no reason anymore to debate on this subject.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5526891]There's a difference between being fine with what you are and taking pride from something you are not responsible of. I have the impression that the “I'm proud of being mutant.” is just a reaction to “You should be ashamed of being mutant.”.
But, in Krakoa, it became “I'm proud of being mutant and it's better than being human.” and no one challenges that because everyone is mutant and there isn't any real conversation. It has become a “norm”.
I find unfortunate that Wanda is no longer a mutant because she was one of the ones of the most interesting “thinkers” on mutanthood and, now, she has no reason anymore to debate on this subject.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think Wanda was a thinker. That dialogue was really just Remender explaining to the reader where the mutant metaphor breaks down, where the mutant metaphor fails.
I miss Remender doing Marvel books. His Uncanny Avengers was a lot more interesting to me than Hickman’s Avengers. Remender’s Cap was a lot of fun, too, a real tribute to the Kirby Cap of the late ‘70s.
Remender also created crazy, great concepts for villains like no one else does — Honest John, the Green Skull, Doctor Mindbubble, etc. What a fantastic imagination! His X-Force wasn’t bad, either, and really his concept of it has stuck around.
[QUOTE] What's not fine is a person that's caused so much damage to mutants telling a mutant that she has no culture and that more of her kind don't have to be born.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't really a lie though.
At the time, mutants had no culture, no homeland, no real history, society, or identity outside of "hated and feared" and "I have powers." Sure there current culture and homeland is rather questionable, but at least there's something there. Back then , though, they had nothing and being a mutant was just an invitation to be attacked by mobs, spit on, or hunted by giant robots. Why would anyone wish that kind of fate on others?
[QUOTE=Brian B;5527051]I don’t think Wanda was a thinker. That dialogue was really just Remender explaining to the reader where the mutant metaphor breaks down, where the mutant metaphor fails.[/QUOTE]
Certainly. The author clearly speaks through Wanda.
But it makes sense that Wanda was the one saying it: during decades, she was the mutant who was a member of a non-mutant only team, didn’t feel the need to be a member of the X-men after being a member of the Brotherhood. Being a mutant wasn’t important for her. So it’s laughable to call her the Pretender.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5526211]I will take the mutants seriously about Wanda if they have hard feelings about Cassandra Nova who has done worse than removing powers… (And hard feelings about Sinister and some others too, by the way. The “he is a mutant, everything can be forgiven” doesn't take in account feelings, I think.)[/QUOTE]
Cassandra Nova is not, never was and never pretended to be a mutant, she is a Mummudrai. The Genosha Massacre is listed alongside M Day and other anti-mutant events in House of X.
Mystique, Shaw, Exodus, Apocalypse, Magneto and others did terrible things, but for the most part they did FOR THE MUTANTS, the X-Men just got in the way. Wanda's act was AGAINST ALL MUTANTS. Even mutants who have never been involved with x-heroes or x-villains have been affected by it, it makes a big difference. Should Academy X children (just one example) who died because of Wanda's attitude or consequences be ignored, since that is part of their story?
Sinister is the most disgusting person in Krakoa, in fact. But unfortunately his work is necessary to undo what Wanda, Cassandra and others have done. The story makes it very clear that Professor X and Magneto who want him, the other mutants didn't have much of a choice.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5526828]I admit I rather agree with Wanda's beliefs: being born one way shouldn't be a shame, but shouldn't be a pride neither. It's not a achievement.
It doesn't mean I approve what Wanda did but I dislike absolutely Krakoa's racial nationalism.
[IMG]http://www.prawnworks.net/artspace/Danger-Room-14562.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.prawnworks.net/artspace/Danger-Room-14563.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Can only humans praise their race? And they do this by creating hate groups and mutant hunting robots. While mutants are the worst people in the world because they are just in a safe place for them.
[QUOTE=Covetous_One;5526886]I mean how Remender wrote Wanda she was, in my opinion unappealing, though the point is they didn’t have a shared culture all they had was a history of persecution and a lot of groups have experienced that. Now that mutants have Krakoa they do have a true culture, history, and way of life that they are crafting. Though I have to disagree about the “normal” human culture since normal is a relative term and what’s normal for some is not normal for others as mutants do have their own version of normal which is using and experiencing everything through their powers.[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. It's not about whether what she blurted out was right or wrong because irregardless she had no right to talk down on mutants when she wiped out 97% of the population no matter how sorry she claimed she was.
It was completely tone deaf and made her look like an ass. Granted tone deafness isn't new on Remenders part...
[QUOTE=eliasmachado;5527127]Cassandra Nova is not, never was and never pretended to be a mutant, she is a Mummudrai. The Genosha Massacre is listed alongside M Day and other anti-mutant events in House of X.
Mystique, Shaw, Exodus, Apocalypse, Magneto and others did terrible things, but for the most part they did FOR THE MUTANTS, the X-Men just got in the way. Wanda's act was AGAINST ALL MUTANTS. Even mutants who have never been involved with x-heroes or x-villains have been affected by it, it makes a big difference. Should Academy X children (just one example) who died because of Wanda's attitude or consequences be ignored, since that is part of their story?
Sinister is the most disgusting person in Krakoa, in fact. But unfortunately his work is necessary to undo what Wanda, Cassandra and others have done. The story makes it very clear that Professor X and Magneto who want him, the other mutants didn't have much of a choice.[/QUOTE]
i would agree with magneto and exodus, maybe apocalypse, but mystique and shaw always put self interest above the mutant race. mystique was willing to kill hope when she was a baby just to save rogues life, which would have doomed the mutant race if it worked, and is currently planning on betraying krakoa because she wants her wife back. shaw just wants to be in control and rule over others, even if it hurts other mutants, like helping in the creation of the sentinels so that he could be in control of them or working with verandi and killing kitty to gain more control over krakoas hellfire trading.
i put apocalypse as a maybe because he wants to make mutants stronger but that was apparently so he could get his family back, which he put krakoa into a potential war to achieve. even then the strength didn't just apply to mutants but everyone on earth, he just wanted the strongest to survive whither they were mutant or not
[QUOTE=eliasmachado;5527127]Cassandra Nova is not, never was and never pretended to be a mutant, she is a Mummudrai. The Genosha Massacre is listed alongside M Day and other anti-mutant events in House of X.[/QUOTE]
Cassandra is a mutant in addition to being a “Mummudrai,” basically, a Shi’ar, astral-plane demon. We know Cassandra is a mutant because she created herself from Charles’ very own cells, made up of his mutant DNA. Thus, Cassandra HAS to be a mutant in addition to being basically a Shi’ar demon. Marvel editorial has never thought this through very well. Of course, that could be said about the entire Morrison run.
The implications of this are that Charles unborn, twin, mutant sister who is also part of the culture of some of Charles’ oldest allies, the Shi’ar, committed the Genoshan genocide. And now mutants are trusting Charles to found the new Krakoan nation? I mean, the whole thing was not Charles’ fault, but he’s probably not the guy you want running your new country, you know? Interestingly, even the weapons, Sentinels, that Cassandra used were almost certainly made by Larry Trask, who was a mutant, too. It’s really kinda messed up. The horrific Genoshan mutant genocide was committed by... mutants!
Like I said, Marvel editorial has clearly not thought a lot of this stuff through very well.
[QUOTE=eliasmachado;5527131]Can only humans praise their race? And they do this by creating hate groups and mutant hunting robots. While mutants are the worst people in the world because they are just in a safe place for them.[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget mutants have created and employed Sentinels, too, pretty frequently, really. That includes Shaw, who is one of the current rulers of Krakoa. Again, there’s all sorts of things Marvel editorial has not thought through very well.