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[QUOTE=Bat-Meal;3456912]Interesting that Tim insists that as heroes they have to be 'better'...as Tim, Steph and Bruce stand there and watch Cass give Kate a beating - still 3 days later Kate has bandages all over her arms and a black eye that is obviously bothering her since she's holding an ice-pack to it.
We must be better! So let's all do nothing while Cass and Kate are the only two to do anything in this crisis, then when it doesn't go the way we like let's preach our code. Oh look, Orphan is understandably in an emotional rage - you know, that team member who has to maintain self-control at all times to not accidentally kill anyone when she's fighting, let's not saying anything when she attacks another team member and see if she loses control. :P[/QUOTE]
In fairness, I wouldn't really call that a beating; Cass only gave her the black eye and only punched her once. The other injuries were from stuff like getting grabbed by Clayface, or happened during the Belfry's collapse. And I don't think they have to worry about Cass killing on accident; that's something she's very clearly averse to, as "League of Shadows" proved (to name just one thing).
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[QUOTE=Bat-Meal;3456912]Interesting that Tim insists that as heroes they have to be 'better'...as Tim, Steph and Bruce stand there and watch Cass give Kate a beating - still 3 days later Kate has bandages all over her arms and a black eye that is obviously bothering her since she's holding an ice-pack to it.
We must be better! So let's all do nothing while Cass and Kate are the only two to do anything in this crisis, then when it doesn't go the way we like let's preach our code. Oh look, Orphan is understandably in an emotional rage - you know, that team member who has to maintain self-control at all times to not accidentally kill anyone when she's fighting, let's not saying anything when she attacks another team member and see if she loses control. :P[/QUOTE]
Your definition of a beating is WAY off, she hit her once, pushed her and ripped the symbol off...that's not a beating in any way shape or form. If wanted to beat her no one could have stopped her... and personally i wouldn't want them to.
Also she is not some rabid animal, she has gotten angry before and kept control (the fight with Lady Shiva for example), and besides what she wanted wasn't blood but rather she wanted to know why Kate killed her friend. I know people are understanding of what Kate did but really it is Cass who i feel sorry for.
People can blame Tim and Bruce all they want but really at the end of it all the one who has to live with it is Kate (committing the act) and Cass(for bearing witness to it).
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[QUOTE=Hulkout42;3457184]Your definition of a beating is WAY off, she [B]hit her[/B] once, [B]pushed her[/B] and [B]ripped the symbol off[/B]...that's not a beating in any way shape or form.[/QUOTE]
Beatings don't have to be purely physical, there is such a thing as emotional beatings as well, injury and damage can be psychological. Regardless, "an act of striking with repeated blows so as to injure or damage" ([url]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beating[/url]). Did Kate also psychologically and emotionally harm Cass as well? definitely, I make no argument against that, but it doesn't undo what Cass did as well.
So as you stated:
1.) Hit, (that caused a black eye and her nose to bleed) = physical
2.) Push = physical
3.) Ripped the [B]symbol[/B] off her chest (ripping someone's clothes can be considered a form of humiliation I might) = emotional
Assault count, one, two, three - it was a beating.
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That's not generally what people mean when they use that term, though.
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It is a valid interpretation and I'm entitled to my opinion.
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[QUOTE=Bat-Meal;3457258]It is a valid interpretation and I'm entitled to my opinion.[/QUOTE]
And so are we in ours so we will have to agree to disagree, however if Kate is as tough as people here seem to think she is than there will be no emotional damage you speak of.
After all she didn't seem to get very emotional given the fact of what she did, which in my opinion does not help her case in the next issue and if she doesn't at some point at least shed a tear for poor Basil (he deserved that and more) than in my opinion she might as well join the sinking boat that is her fathers organization right before that little maniac sends it to its final resting place.
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I hope she doesn't get too emotional, as she did what she had to do. Given that I'm 100% absolutely no doubt about it no question at all on her side in this, SHE should not be the one who needs to show contrition here. This should end with Bruce and Tim apologizing to her for being self-righteous A-holes, or at least give a better explanation for what their magical "we could have found another way" fantasy actually was.
Seriously you want to say that Bruce, Tim, then I want specifics. What "other way" would you have found there, answer the question or don't expect me to take you seriously here.
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But on the other hand why did she join up with them if she wants to apply the soldier/police man logic? why wear the Bat symbol? had she been independent then it would have made sense. Luke and JPV following her doesn't make any sense at all either.
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[QUOTE=Hulkout42;3457584]And so are we in ours so we will have to agree to disagree, however if Kate is as tough as people here seem to think she is than there will be no emotional damage you speak of.
After all she didn't seem to get very emotional given the fact of what she did.[/QUOTE]
Kate is a character that hides the damage from others, or just shuts down around them. With the possible exception of when she's completely lost it and hence drinking herself nearly to death.
She acted uncaring and ruthless to her younger cousin in her original series - to try to push Bette out of being a vigilante, to the point that Bette ran off in tears. As soon as Bette was out of the apartment Kate broke down and cried.
In her new solo in one of the flashbacks shows how during her 'lost year' she basically tried to commit suicide, and only survived because she was rescued.
In her original 'Tec run it shows how before she became Batwoman she was drinking herself to the point of throwing-up and passing-out - just to numb the pain and so she could have her father looking after her.
*****
My point is, by breaking apart the Batfam like this, the purpose seems to be about pushing Kate to the edge where she either has to find another purpose (as shown in solicits by joining the Colony) or spiralling back down into the near-suicidal mess she was before she became Batwoman.
To put it another way, her comment about the 'entire' Batfam being ready to take her down, sure seems like she views them as now as akin to 'enemies' after all that was said and done.
Someone who isn't hurting would more likely expect people to calm down be invited back into the team. Or shrug their shoulders and go on their own way, not caring about a missing symbol or being tossed-out.
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[QUOTE=Barbatos666;3457602]But on the other hand why did she join up with them if she wants to apply the soldier/police man logic? why wear the Bat symbol? had she been independent then it would have made sense.[/QUOTE]
Kate sees the Batsymbol as a flag to fight under, since the Army is no longer an option for her. It's a symbol that literally saved her life. And she's specifically called the bat she wears [I]her[/I] bat, meaning she gets to decide, ultimately, what it means. She has usually kept to the no-kill rule out of respect, and because she's not stupid or trigger-happy. She doesn't begrudge Bruce his rules... but they're [I]his[/I] rules, not necessarily hers.
[QUOTE]Luke and JPV following her doesn't make any sense at all either.[/QUOTE]
Sure it does. Luke and Kate are friends, JPV is already sort of a soldier and was raised with a similar mindset to Kate's in this area.
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[QUOTE=Caivu;3457629]Kate sees the Batsymbol as a flag to fight under, since the Army is no longer an option for her. It's a symbol that literally saved her life. And she's specifically called the bat she wears [I]her[/I] bat, meaning she gets to decide, ultimately, what it means. She has usually kept to the no-kill rule out of respect, and because she's not stupid or trigger-happy. She doesn't begrudge Bruce his rules... but they're [I]his[/I] rules, not necessarily hers.[/QUOTE]
To add to that, in her origin she referred to the symbol as a "call to arms", not as a 'call to Batman and his rules'.
And Batman was well aware that Kate was fine with killing, Julia Pennyworth was sent by Batman to keep an eye on Kate (in her solo), and at one point basically reports something like 'good news, she hasn't killed anyone yet'.
On an unrealted note - Batman invited Batwoman into the Knights to keep her away from joining her father and his colony, and Jacob trained Kate specifically for the Colony - makes me wonder why the character doesn't just up and leave anyway to get away from her manipulative and controlling relatives. :p
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[QUOTE=Bat-Meal;3457636]On an unrealted note - Batman invited Batwoman into the Knights to keep her away from joining her father and his colony, and Jacob trained Kate specifically for the Colony - makes me wonder why the character doesn't just up and leave anyway to get away from her manipulative and controlling relatives. :p[/QUOTE]
And this is what I like least about Kate's arc in [I]Detective Comics[/I], the changes (I'd call it character assassination) made to Jacob Kane, and even the decision to make Kate and Bruce first cousins.
(Caivu, here's a space for you to insert "You're simply wrong!": _______ Hope that helps. Then I will return to stating my own opinion.)
"Kate Kane, torn between two men, her superheroic paragon of a cousin, her scheming and manipulative father! Will she do things Batman's way, or Col. Kane's way? Will she be a member of Bruce's Batfamily, or Jacob's Colony?"
I agree with Bat-Meal on this. Do things your own way, Kate. Make your own family. You really don't need two alpha-dog men telling you what to do.
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[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;3457657](Caivu, here's a space for you to insert "You're simply wrong!": _______ Hope that helps. Then I will return to stating my own opinion.)[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that, but you could save yourself the trouble by, y'know... not being wrong in the first place. :p
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[QUOTE=Caivu;3457629]Kate sees the Batsymbol as a flag to fight under, since the Army is no longer an option for her. It's a symbol that literally saved her life. And she's specifically called the bat she wears [I]her[/I] bat, meaning she gets to decide, ultimately, what it means. She has usually kept to the no-kill rule out of respect, and because she's not stupid or trigger-happy. She doesn't begrudge Bruce his rules... but they're [I]his[/I] rules, not necessarily hers.
Sure it does. Luke and Kate are friends, JPV is already sort of a soldier and was raised with a similar mindset to Kate's in this area.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense lol. The symbol that saved her life is Batman's not hers. Its his brand and it does stand for whatever he decides it stands for. No one in Gotham is going to differentiate between her Bat and his. If she starts killing people then it becomes associated with the symbol as a whole not just her. Even Jason stopped killing once he started wearing the symbol.
Kate should find something else entirely to represent what she stands for.
Luke and Bruce go back a long way before him and Kate. Bruce gave him his suit and made him Batwing. JPV's background is exactly why he wouldn't sign up in the first place.
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[QUOTE=Barbatos666;3457668]I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense lol. The symbol that saved her life is Batman's not hers. Its his brand and it does stand for whatever he decides it stands for. No one in Gotham is going to differentiate between her Bat and his. If she starts killing people then it becomes associated with the symbol as a whole not just her. Even Jason stopped killing once he started wearing the symbol.[/QUOTE]
Well... Kate doesn't see it that way.
[QUOTE]Luke and Bruce go back a long way before him and Kate. Bruce gave him his suit and made him Batwing. JPV's background is exactly why he wouldn't sign up in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Knowing someone longer doesn't always mean you agree with them. And why wouldn't JPV join?