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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5295626]I really don't get why some of the CGI in this looked worse than the first one.
Weirdly, everyone was concerned about how Cheetah would look but I think she ended up looking fine. At least compared to some of the rubbery effects we got in daytime scenes (Diana rescuing those children from getting run over looked [I]awful[/I]).
It really adds nothing. If the genders of the protagonists were reversed and the male hero had sex with his love interest who was inhabiting another body, people would go berserk. And would be right to do so. They could have just had sex in Diana's apartment and gotten clothes at a store or something, it was completely pointless. And it's a shame because most of the Diana/Steve stuff is great.
[spoil]yeah, she is no longer in Cheetah form but that could be due to Max giving up his powers and not a choice on her part. She looks sad and angry, and not really in a way everyone else does. And she's still wearing her "post-wish" clothes, which might signal that she's not completely reformed. I hope she comes back, but on the other hand this version of Barbara was very endearing in the beginning and I'd kind of hate for her to end up as miserable as Cheetah typically does. I'm torn, but that means Wiig did an excellent job.[/spoil]
Yeah, he shouldn't come back again. It would undermine the message in this one. At most, I can see him come back as a vision or dream or flashback, but that's it.
If we get a new director, I'm hoping we get a "Thor: Ragnarok" situation in which we get a creative overhaul that reinvigorates things, instead of a "X-Men: Last Stand" scenario[/QUOTE]
We are getting a new director?
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[QUOTE=LordUltimus;5295706]Don't forget about all the Middle East drama. We're going to get a LOT of hot takes on that.[/QUOTE]
Yikes. I just heard about that, and read [url=https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/12/26/critics-slam-wonder-woman-1984-for-anti-arab-racism]this article[/url]. It brings up some interesting and valid points, though I do think calling it the "most racist movie of 2020" is a bit over the top.
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It's not like Diana went to the Duke of Deception and filed an order with him and said exactly how Steve should come back to her. She just made a wish, without knowing the consequence of that. She didn't say I wish that Steve would come back in the body of another man. All of that was the Duke of Deception's doing. The Lord of Lies wanted to punish people by giving them what they think they wanted. So, of course, there were all kinds of loopholes in his contract.
Diana can be forgiven--because everyone in the world needs to be forgiven--and it can always be explained as a mystical spell, so she's not totally responsible.
I did find it weird and left a lot unexplained. Maybe there were scenes filmed to show when Steve became this other guy. I don't know if he has a name in the movie--I'll call him Trevor Howard.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5295690]Diana already had a price in losing her powers. I feel like the body hijacking was an unnecessary next step that added nothing and actually detracts a great deal from the film.[/QUOTE]
I really don't understand how they thought putting Steve in another man's body was a good idea.
[QUOTE=LordUltimus;5295706]Don't forget about all the Middle East drama. We're going to get a LOT of hot takes on that.[/QUOTE]
I don't see a whole lot of merit in this complaint.
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I wondered if the Bialya thing has any connection with Black Adam--although he's in Kahndaq. On the D.C. map how do these two fictional nations determine to each other and to Egypt?
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5295626]Yeah, he shouldn't come back again. It would undermine the message in this one. At most, I can see him come back as a vision or dream or flashback, but that's it.
If we get a new director, I'm hoping we get a "Thor: Ragnarok" situation in which we get a creative overhaul that reinvigorates things, instead of a "X-Men: Last Stand" scenario[/QUOTE]
I hope we don't get as dramatic an overhaul as [I]Ragnarok[/I] was. I don't think WW really needs it.
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[QUOTE=Nyssane;5295503]
[spoil]I really thought that she had renounced her wish off screen as I was watching it. But after talking with my boyfriend right after the movie, I realized... it's very clearly left up in the air and that she most likely didn't. If she didn't, she may still have the powers from her first wish which would make her immortal and easily able to return in any future movies. I hope that's the case, because Kristen Wiig knocked it out of the park for me.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
[spoil]Yeah, that's what I thought too. They can explain that she was able to hide her immortality throughout the decades by assuming Priscilla Rich's identity. And she can get her animal form (perhaps with the Rebirth look this time) from Circe.[/spoil]
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I did like how the trailers still portrayed Diana as impressive and capable even though she was progressively losing strength during the course of the film. Her not wanting to give up what she desired is very relatable to me, and plays into what I consider the “reluctant hero” archetype.
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[QUOTE=Frontier;5295791]I hope we don't get as dramatic an overhaul as [I]Ragnarok[/I] was. I don't think WW really needs it.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, after watching WW84, I think WW could use a Ragnarok-style overhaul. Ragnarok is a fun, rewatchable movie; I don't feel the same about WW84.
I'm glad it missed a normal theatrical opening, because it's a bit of a dud.
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[QUOTE=Psy-lock;5295835][spoil]Yeah, that's what I thought too. They can explain that she was able to hide her immortality throughout the decades by assuming Priscilla Rich's identity. And she can get her animal form (perhaps with the Rebirth look this time) from Circe.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
I would love if they could do a twist on "The Lies" and have Diana seek out Barbara's help against Circe in Wonder Woman 3. I'm kind of nervous that with the not-great reception, low Chinese box office, and the controversy behind certain aspects (the Steve bodyswap, the depiction of POC), we may not get a WW3 for quite some time, if at all.
[QUOTE=Amazon Swordsman;5295850]I did like how the trailers still portrayed Diana as impressive and capable even though she was progressively losing strength during the course of the film. Her not wanting to give up what she desired is very relatable to me, and plays into what I consider the “reluctant hero” archetype.[/QUOTE]
I truly love how for years people went on and on about Diana not being relatable and now we have the most relatable Diana we've ever seen.
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[QUOTE=Samm;5295708]I think it’d be a shame to lose Steve but I do get your point. I hope they bring in some of the gods in WW3! I want to see Hermes, Hades, Apollo, Athena, and Poseidon. That would be cool![/QUOTE]
But...didn't they all get killed by Ares according to the first movie? Except maybe Zeus, I can't recall...
If so, I wouldn't mind them just...forgetting that bit was mentioned and just bringing them back.
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Zeus used his last amount of strong to create Diana. Ares killed all the gods and Zeus sacrificed himself. I guess Steve will come back in flashbacks. Once again Pines signed up for muti movie deals.
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I really cannot get over how perfect a sequel this movie is.
The colour palate is great and with modern sensibilities, but the movie itself looks like it could have been filmed on film. It just looks good. The craftmanship is superb.
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Critics have lowered the score. Audiences have it at 74%
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[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5295883]I really cannot get over how perfect a sequel this movie is.
The colour palate is great and with modern sensibilities, but the movie itself looks like it could have been filmed on film. It just looks good. The craftmanship is superb.[/QUOTE]
Yeah dude, I greatly enjoyed it as well. I agree with others, Steve returning in his own body would have been less problematic, but overall the movie felt a lot truer to Diana than the first which was saddled with a dismal color palette, the sword and shield snuffing out Diana's classic arsenal, and a far weaker third act. I really enjoyed my time with the movie. The solution to the Jet was an asspull, admittedly, but I was glad it wasn't just some stealth jet she found. I wish they set up her ability to do that a bit earlier in the movie, but as far as getting the invisible jet in there, it was fun and makes enough sense given their justification.
I've seen characters do worse for less in superhero movies so I'm not going to draw the line at Diana's magic touch.
I fully admit that a further rewatch may yield more problems, but right now I'm very pleased with it.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5295908]Critics have lowered the score. Audiences have it at 74%[/QUOTE]
It's a tonal break from the Snyder bros so I expect they're review bombing it pretty hard, wanting less vibrant color and more sword/shield warrior woman rather than Wonder Woman. I expect the user reviews will level out later on, though that may not change the score significantly, so who knows?
The critical score was more lukewarm. They didn't like it as much and that's fair. Were I not a fan of DC or Diana, I would probably be more critical of it, but it spoke to her as a character more clearly than the first movie did. Especially regarding the final fate of her villains and how she resolved all three arcs.
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[QUOTE=mystical41;5295717]We are getting a new director?[/QUOTE]
Not for certain, but between the reception of this film and the fact that Patty sounded less and less enthusiastic about returning for WW3 even before this came out, it seems likely. If we get a WW3 at all.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5295725]It's not like Diana went to the Duke of Deception and filed an order with him and said exactly how Steve should come back to her. She just made a wish, without knowing the consequence of that. She didn't say I wish that Steve would come back in the body of another man. All of that was the Duke of Deception's doing. The Lord of Lies wanted to punish people by giving them what they think they wanted. So, of course, there were all kinds of loopholes in his contract.
Diana can be forgiven--because everyone in the world needs to be forgiven--and it can always be explained as a mystical spell, so she's not totally responsible.
I did find it weird and left a lot unexplained. Maybe there were scenes filmed to show when Steve became this other guy. I don't know if he has a name in the movie--I'll call him Trevor Howard.[/QUOTE]
She didn't ask for him to come back in that body, but both she and he knew he was a different person before they slept together. It's really not a good look to use this plot device.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5295791]I hope we don't get as dramatic an overhaul as [I]Ragnarok[/I] was. I don't think WW really needs it.[/QUOTE]
It's just an example of a superhero trilogy breaking the "third film curse" by going in a completely new direction with a new director. And Ragnarok was better for Thor overall than this film is shaping up to be for Wonder Woman, so it doesn't sound unappealing at this point.
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I think there's a lot of 'review bombing' because of the nature of the release. A lot is riding on this movie and it's a big deal to just stream it (since it's totally absurd to expect anyone to go to a theater during a pandemic). Feels like there's a lot of people in the bizz that want this to do poorly.
It's also vastly different from MCU stuff, which a lot of people love and think everything needs to resemble.
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[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5295945]I think there's a lot of 'review bombing' because of the nature of the release. A lot is riding on this movie and it's a big deal to just stream it (since it's totally absurd to expect anyone to go to a theater during a pandemic). Feels like there's a lot of people in the bizz that want this to do poorly.[/QUOTE]
For sure. When this eventually gets a theatre re-release (most likely an anniversary if not a delayed one after COVID-19) I'm definitely going.
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[QUOTE=Robanker;5295909]Yeah dude, I greatly enjoyed it as well. I agree with others, Steve returning in his own body would have been less problematic, but overall the movie felt a lot truer to Diana than the first which was saddled with a dismal color palette, the sword and shield snuffing out Diana's classic arsenal, and a far weaker third act. I really enjoyed my time with the movie. The solution to the Jet was an asspull, admittedly, but I was glad it wasn't just some stealth jet she found. I wish they set up her ability to do that a bit earlier in the movie, but as far as getting the invisible jet in there, it was fun and makes enough sense given their justification.
I've seen characters do worse for less in superhero movies so I'm not going to draw the line at Diana's magic touch.
I fully admit that a further rewatch may yield more problems, but right now I'm very pleased with it.[/QUOTE]
I really liked the first WW but yeah the colour palate was mute. That makes sense due to the context of the movie and the subject matter of the Great War. I'm glad this went a different way though, it felt very much like a new thing. It also left plenty of room for the WONDER WOMAN AND THE JSA in-betweenquel I want really badly.
I liked the invisible jet bit a lot, honestly. Loved the connection to Zeus. Dug her flight too. I agree that the body possession stuff was real questionable. I felt bad for the guy at the end who just didn't know where the hell he was for a few weeks. It seemed the stone worked off laws of probability though, so Steve wouldn't have been able to just appear in his own body again.
I'd have to watch it a few more times, but it's definitely up there for me. No where near AQUAMAN, but up there on that lil list in the sky ya know?
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[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5295945]I think there's a lot of 'review bombing' because of the nature of the release. A lot is riding on this movie and it's a big deal to just stream it (since it's totally absurd to expect anyone to go to a theater during a pandemic). Feels like there's a lot of people in the bizz that want this to do poorly.
It's also vastly different from MCU stuff, which a lot of people love and think everything needs to resemble.[/QUOTE]
I think the expectations of this being the first big blockbuster since Covid began and the success of the first film were working against it. It was never going to live up to expectations completely, even if it was a less "average" movie than it is.
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After sleeping and thinking on this film last night, I have a better sense of what it was going for, given this year and the last 4+ years of public discourse.
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[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;5295964]I really liked the first WW but yeah the colour palate was mute. That makes sense due to the context of the movie and the subject matter of the Great War. I'm glad this went a different way though, it felt very much like a new thing. It also left plenty of room for the WONDER WOMAN AND THE JSA in-betweenquel I want really badly.
I liked the invisible jet bit a lot, honestly. Loved the connection to Zeus. Dug her flight too. I agree that the body possession stuff was real questionable. I felt bad for the guy at the end who just didn't know where the hell he was for a few weeks. It seemed the stone worked off laws of probability though, so Steve wouldn't have been able to just appear in his own body again.
I'd have to watch it a few more times, but it's definitely up there for me. No where near AQUAMAN, but up there on that lil list in the sky ya know?[/QUOTE]
I enjoyed Aquaman a lot(though I felt it was a weaker film and it vibes more with a take on Arthur I'm not crazy about) but this is up there with Superman and Shazam (my two favorite DC films) for capturing the spirit of a character. I really dug it, though again, repeat viewings may get over the obvious honeymoon phase I'm in. I plan to watch it again tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I'll change my mind then.
I liked the first movie as well, or at least the first two acts of it! Third one is very uneven. That said, I agree, a vibrant color palette would absolutely not have worked given the subject matter but I'm grateful it wasn't repeated in the '80s, one of the most (practically offensively so) excessively colorful decades of all. Hell, in modern memory the decade is pretty much remembered for synth music and heavy neon colors.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5295938]Not for certain, but between the reception of this film and the fact that Patty sounded less and less enthusiastic about returning for WW3 even before this came out, it seems likely. If we get a WW3 at all.
She didn't ask for him to come back in that body, but both she and he knew he was a different person before they slept together. It's really not a good look to use this plot device.
It's just an example of a superhero trilogy breaking the "third film curse" by going in a completely new direction with a new director. And Ragnarok was better for Thor overall than this film is shaping up to be for Wonder Woman, so it doesn't sound unappealing at this point.[/QUOTE]
Then they should get better writers for the scrip than geoff. He can't do WW world justice in the comics, and can't do it on film either. The way Cheetah was treated at the end, screams Cheetah's New 52 debut vs the justice league final battle. Underwhelming to say the least.
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I think the pandemic was blessing for WW84, because in normal circumstances, and having seen the film already, the movie would have dropped from the first film at the box office. International audiences would not have embraced it and it’s getting mixed reactions in the USA.
I feel like since Patty is so caught up with other projects, WB should just move on to a new director instead of having to wait 5+ for a sequel. Also WW3 needs way more action and the sword/shield back!
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I highly doubt the sword and shield had any impact on audience reception.
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[QUOTE=Nyssane;5296036]I highly doubt the sword and shield had any impact on audience reception.[/QUOTE]
Yes, more action (or at least better executed action) would be needed, but I don't think the sword and shield are necessary at all.
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[QUOTE=Samm;5296034]I think the pandemic was blessing for WW84, because in normal circumstances, and having seen the film already, the movie would have dropped from the first film at the box office. International audiences would not have embraced it and it’s getting mixed reactions in the USA.
I feel like since Patty is so caught up with other projects, WB should just move on to a new director instead of having to wait 5+ for a sequel. Also WW3 needs way more action and the sword/shield back![/QUOTE]
The sword and shield have done more harm to Diana than good.
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The sword and shield can sometimes be a cool visual but at this point it’s overplayed as much as Superman’s angry red eyes of anger.
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Sorry but it was full of cringe and old and dated stereotypes (a.ka. Barbara Minerva). The message at the end delivered with an embarrassingly juvenile tone. Also Gal Gadot saving Arab kids? It is next level meta propaganda.
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[QUOTE=Robanker;5296107]The sword and shield have done more harm to Diana than good.[/QUOTE]
That is absolutely not true.
I have not heard a single person in the "real world" complain about the shield and sword or say that they hated the first film due to those. (And by "real world" I mean, offline and beyond the confines of comic book shops and comic book sites). The first film was beloved by audiences and critically acclaimed, and she used her sword and shield there. This whole narrative of "The sword and shield have done more harm to Diana than good" is not substantiated by any facts or stats. It's just a silly notion created by staunch fans of Lynda Carter and/or old-school WW comics. There is absolutely no proof that the sword and shield is "harmful" to Wonder Woman's rep, or future, or whatever.
The shield, sword, lasso, and bracelets can peacefully co-exist in Wonder Woman's cinematic future. Heck, I'd love to see Diana face off against a hydra or a gorgon, and sorry, guys but who the hell wants to see her a battle between Diana and a gorgon (or a hydra) that does not end with the amazon beheading the monster? That is classic mythological iconography reimagined for the superhero cinema age, and it would would certainly be a great visual/action setpiece that could positively impact the box office.
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[QUOTE=Robanker;5296107]The sword and shield have done more harm to Diana than good.[/QUOTE]
That’s not true at all! In fact it has added to her arsenal of weapons and now audiences expect that from Diana! Whether WW comic fans like it or not, Warrior Wonder Woman has ALOT more fans than pacifist Wonder Woman does... a lot of the complaints about this film is that it lacks action, is really campy and Diana doesn’t act much like a warrior in it! Hopefully all of that is fixed in the third installment
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[QUOTE=FutureWonder;5296162]That is absolutely not true.
I have not heard a single person in the "real world" complain about the shield and sword or say that they hated the first film due to those. (And by "real world" I mean, offline and beyond the confines of comic book shops and comic book sites). The first film was beloved by audiences and critically acclaimed, and she used her sword and shield there. This whole narrative of "The sword and shield have done more harm to Diana than good" is not substantiated by any facts or stats. It's just a silly notion created by staunch fans of Lynda Carter and/or old-school WW comics. There is absolutely no proof that the sword and shield is "harmful" to Wonder Woman's rep, or future, or whatever.
The shield, sword, lasso, and bracelets can peacefully co-exist in Wonder Woman's cinematic future. Heck, I'd love to see Diana face off against a hydra or a gorgon, and sorry, guys but who the hell wants to see her a battle between Diana and a gorgon (or a hydra) that does not end with the amazon beheading the monster? That is classic mythological iconography reimagined for the superhero cinema age, and it would would certainly be a great visual/action setpiece that could positively impact the box office.[/QUOTE]
The sword and shield is one of the reasons why she turned into a more generic warrior woman type in the comics. It is all about sword and shield instead of her actual powers being shown in big ways. I want to see WW using her god like strength and speed. To feel she is powerful enough to get the job done without the need if a sword. Like classic WW was.
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[QUOTE=Samm;5296186]That’s not true at all! In fact it has added to her arsenal of weapons and now audiences expect that from Diana! Whether WW comic fans like it or not, Warrior Wonder Woman has ALOT more fans than pacifist Wonder Woman does... a lot of the complaints about this film is that it lacks action, is really campy and Diana doesn’t act much like a warrior in it! Hopefully all of that is fixed in the third installment[/QUOTE]
“More action” does not = “sword and shield”. The action we got with the lasso was fine and more of that would be enough.
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[QUOTE=Samm;5296186]That’s not true at all! In fact it has added to her arsenal of weapons and now audiences expect that from Diana! Whether WW comic fans like it or not, Warrior Wonder Woman has ALOT more fans than pacifist Wonder Woman does... a lot of the complaints about this film is that it lacks action, is really campy and Diana doesn’t act much like a warrior in it! Hopefully all of that is fixed in the third installment[/QUOTE]
Wonder Woman was a more badass and powerful warrior snd still loving without tje sword snd shield. I picture WW as a powerhpuse of amazing strength. Not a generic warrior who needs a sword to cause big damage. Her own powers should be bigger and more central 8n battle than a sword and a shield.
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Was anyone else bothered by the lack of lore and Greek mythology? I don't want Diana stuck in purely mythological stories, but that's the stuff that sets her apart, and it was so lacking.
[QUOTE=Jabare;5295987]After sleeping and thinking on this film last night, I have a better sense of what it was going for, given this year and the last 4+ years of public discourse.[/QUOTE]
This wasn't an aspect of the film I really liked. Not to stray too far into politics, but I felt like Diana saying something to the effect of "This world is already so beautiful" is essentially Hillary Clinton saying "America is already Great".
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This is just nitpicking, but escalators have been around since the 1890's, a few decades before WW1.
[IMG]https://64.media.tumblr.com/5d7597ccd4a1767f118b4b29930cec3b/tumblr_nolj2kSzX91u119njo1_500.png[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Lightning Rider;5296204]Was anyone else bothered by the lack of lore and Greek mythology? I don't want Diana stuck in purely mythological stories, but that's the stuff that sets her apart, and it was so lacking.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's the only thing that sets her apart, it's just one aspect of her character. The myths are arguably overly mined enough in the comics as is. The Amazons were in it at least.
[QUOTE]This wasn't an aspect of the film I really liked. Not to stray too far into politics, but I felt like Diana saying something to the effect of "This world is already so beautiful" is essentially Hillary Clinton saying "America is already Great".[/QUOTE]
It feels in-character for her to say, especially after the last film.
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[QUOTE=mystical41;5296193]The sword and shield is one of the reasons why she turned into a more generic warrior woman type in the comics. It is all about sword and shield instead of her actual powers being shown in big ways. I want to see WW using her god like strength and speed. To feel she is powerful enough to get the job done without the need if a sword. Like classic WW was.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. Much like "Brruuuuuce is the maaaaask" the sword and shield have just removed depth from the character and made her very generic. The lasso and bullets/bracelets were uniquely Wonder Woman. Instead we have Xena in a Wonder Woman skin. Hurray. In five years she'll have a cape and pointed cowl that everyone will celebrate as popular and bemoan Wonder Woman fans as "staunch supporters of Lynda Carter."
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[QUOTE=Nyssane;5296036]I highly doubt the sword and shield had any impact on audience reception.[/QUOTE]
The lack of a sword and shield, and the focus on the lasso instead, was a good thing. Give me more of that.
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[QUOTE=mystical41;5296193]The sword and shield is one of the reasons why she turned into a more generic warrior woman type in the comics. [/QUOTE]
You keep parroting that opinion as if it were a fact.
And we have already talked about your erroneus assertion that classic WW from the 40s was somehow a major powerhouse, when we all know that in some issues she lassoed a planet, and in other issues she was knocked out cold by some rando on the street.
Wonder Woman using a shield/sword and her being a powerhouse are not mutually exclusive notions.
[QUOTE=Robanker;5296241]Pretty much this. Much like "Brruuuuuce is the maaaaask" the sword and shield have just removed depth from the character and made her very generic. [/QUOTE]
The sword and shield removing character depth is as ridiculous a theory as saying that her lasso and bracelets add depth to her character.
[QUOTE=Samm;5296186]That’s not true at all! In fact it has added to her arsenal of weapons and now audiences expect that from Diana! Whether WW comic fans like it or not, Warrior Wonder Woman has ALOT more fans than pacifist Wonder Woman does... a lot of the complaints about this film is that it lacks action, is really campy and Diana doesn’t act much like a warrior in it! Hopefully all of that is fixed in the third installment[/QUOTE]
Exactly!
One of the big complains that keep being repeated is that the film focuses too much on hamfisted camp, and that the film is boring AF. But hey, that is what LC fans want...