Why no Tim Drake? Is it due to sales numbers?

[QUOTE=Fergus;3818655]I don't think They put "crap" in a title just because they know people will buy it. I just think that when you get to that point they should put some extra effort and resources.
A proven writer. A run that sticks to the core theme and tone that define the Title. A run that keeps focus on the star of . A run that reminds us why we read Detective.

It was a dodgy time to give us a book so Divorced from the thing's we expect and like about Tec. It was a dodgy time to get creative, experiment with a new Squad , restore a bunch of characters. A poster here claims Batman doesn't even get an arc focused him in Rebirth Tec.

When Ive already spent so much on soo many issues over many years, 50 issues isn't that I haven't read is far less problematic than gaps.

I just carried on getting it because I always have and when you pick it up an issue at a time it doesn't feel like I'm wasting a lot of cash[/QUOTE]

I can see your point here. At least Tynion had a long history of writing many of these characters in New 52, and he's considered one of the main writers at DC currently. I would prefer they had a more stable artists though. Borrows was great, but him doing scattered issues was not good enough.

[QUOTE=bat39;3815025]That's a pretty good idea. Though I somehow never saw Tim being a cop. But maybe he could be some kind of private investigator/independent consultant.

Other niche I could have seen Tim play is the 'daytime shift' of the hero business in Gotham...but apparently they have the Signal doing that now.[/QUOTE]

True but Signal is one guy. Why not have Tim help out?

Because they are trying to push the signal while trying to get rid of the character, would make no sense to put it in a book, unless it is for character assassination.

[QUOTE=MarkRodriguez09;3824135]True but Signal is one guy. Why not have Tim help out?[/QUOTE]

Because that is too much like right.

Better deal to put them in the same apartment and try a duo run (until Bart & Conner are ready).

[QUOTE=Mataza;3824913]Because they are trying to push the signal while trying to get rid of the character, would make no sense to put it in a book, unless it is for character assassination.[/QUOTE]

I don't think DC would try to get rid of Tim per se, but all they're trying to push right now is the Signal and hopefully they've learned a little bit from the failure of Harper Row to use him more carefully without without shoving him down peoples' throats as the most wonderful thing that ever was. However, I would--if I was DC management--give Tim a solo book, maybe also a team book with his friends, so that his fans wouldn't be completely left out and they'd still come to the shops. It wouldn't be something I'd have any interest in--but I WOULD be interested in those customers.

In all honesty Tim should get a mini, to gauge interest. A continuation straight from the pre flashpoint character development, even if it has to be elseworld.

And young justice ongoing is sorely needed, something with the levity you dont get anywhere else, these characters just have great chemistry, especially the 3 founding members. Then slowly add the rest over time, to form a solid team without the cheap drama from titans or the frankly dark and disgusting tones of the new teen titans.

Maybe the Bat-Family has gotten so crowded that Tim is finally revealed as the superfluous, useless character many of us have long known he was.

[QUOTE=oasis1313;3825985]Maybe the Bat-Family has gotten so crowded that Tim is finally revealed as the superfluous, useless character many of us have long known he was.[/QUOTE]

You're obsessed by Tim Drake, I am increasingly convinced that you love him instead.

[QUOTE]But what is Tim Drake's purpose? He was originally meant to be the normal kid who was a copy of the Bruce Wayne in terms of social-economic standing but without the dead parent. But Tim still had a lonely and isolated childhood because his parents were benignly neglectful. But then his parents were killed and he became an orphan and later the son of Batman. But clearly, DC realised that this made Tim too much like Dick and Jason and so we got an awful walk back of his parent's death in N52.

That's so far from what Tim was meant to be. Remember this is post Dark Knight Rises. And DC tried with an edgier Robin. It failed spectacularly for them. Tim wasn't just Robin. Nor was he redeeming a tarnished mantle. He was redeeming Bruce. Because Bruce post-Death In The Family was angry and violent.

Jim Gordon in several instances was worried about this more violent Batman. Because a Batman that callous and merciless would be useless in reforming the corruption in Gotham. We see this a lot in real life. Yeah, Giuliani managed to "clean up" the streets of New York by enacting much harsher measures. But it cost people in many neighborhoods their sense of liberty. All in the name of "public safety." When Batman is employing the same methods as the crooked cops and politicians he and Gordon were fighting, because they weren't only going after Two Face or Joker or the Riddler, how can Gordon continue to work to clean up Gotham? Gordon was close to seeking a warrant for the Batman. Tim comes in near the zenith of Batman's reckless drive for vengeance.

Dick and Jason were Bruce's sidekicks. They were the ones who followed orders and executed them. Even as an adult, Dick is much more willing to go along with Bruce. It's rare for them to butt heads about a plan of action. Tim, though, wasn't trained from the outset to be a sidekick. Yeah, Bruce was his mentor. But from day one Tim was calling Bruce, and Dick, on his shit. He called out Bruce on being unnecessarily violent. He called out Dick for being up his ass and not being there for Bruce or Jason. In many ways Tim filled in for Silver Age Batgirl, who also acted as a check for Bruce and Dick. Tim came in on much more even footing. Before he was Bruce's student or son, he was acting as Bruce's partner.

Pre-52, of the Bats, Dick and Barbara were absolutely equal to Bruce in terms of the global heroes. Dick was an accomplished leader and crime fighter on his own. Barbara was the pre-eminent information broker and techno-wizard of the world's heroes. But in Gotham, Robin was every bit the equal of Nightwing and Batman. Because it was Robin that stood up for a Cassandra Cain looking for redemption. It was Robin that showed Nightwing that you don't need to go after Ivy by attacking her plants first. It was Robin that reminded Batman that their duty to the city meant they had a duty to all of the city's citizens - the ones upholding the law and the ones breaking it.

Where the N52 spectacularly failed Tim was that it erased him as Bruce's partner. Not sidekick. Not son. Partner. Tim was no longer the person pointing out when Bruce or Dick had a spectacularly bad idea. When they were being unnecessarily self-sacrificing. The Pre-52 Red Robin run was a stark contrast to what came before, not just because this was Tim at his lowest point, but because this was Tim who had learned from the mistakes of his mentors. Where Dick and Bruce would almost never call for help, Tim did. And sure, Tim got caught with a list of people to watch, but he didn't leave out files on how to take down the world's heroes. They stuck him with the name "Red Robin," but they erased his biggest strength from day one - Tim learns.

And this is where Tynion completely lost me with his run. For someone who claims to be a huge fan of Tim, he missed the very essence of who Tim was. Sure, he's smart. All of the Bats are smart. They have to be, because they're humans surrounded by aliens who can move planets and people who can run faster than light. He wasn't the heart of the family. That's Dick. He wasn't the soul of the family. That's Bruce. Tim was the family's morality. Tim's reason for being in a mask was The Mission. He needed to center Bruce to keep him from straying and perverting The Mission. He needed to bring Dick back so that Bruce had someone to lean on for The Mission. He trained and then helped take down Jean-Paul Valley for The Mission. That pursuit of justice, so that there weren't anymore orphans in alleyways? That's Tim. Yes, one of his greatest skills in his intellect. But that isn't what defined Tim.

And this is something that's seriously missing in all of the Bat titles. Not one of them is pursuing The Mission objectively. Batman is no longer the World's Greatest Detective, he's "The Night That Punches Whilst Suffering From Some Vague Ennui." While Dick does have a sense of Justice, it's never been his defining moment. Dick shines best when he gets to be the good guy doing good guy things. And sometimes you can't pursue Justice and be the good guy. Jason and Damian are...well...Jason and Damian. And their idea of Justice is that it's a lot like Vengeance. Which I think a lot of current readers also subscribe to.

So you want a place for Tim? Give him Gotham. Give him the crime book. Give him to a competent writer who can tell those mysteries. Or even just a couple of gang wars and some drug smuggling. Let Bruce and Dick and Jason and Damian handle the weird, millennia spanning secret societies and ancient wisdom shit. And put Tim back where he did his best work. Protecting Gotham and all the people in it. The good, the bad and the in-between. Ferreting out police corruption and foiling another kidnapping by Hatter. Letting Ivy go because she was the one who kept a pedophile from snatching some kids, but also reminding The Penguin that he knows what goes on in The Iceberg Lounge. [/QUOTE]

This guy on Reddit gets it. The reason I say Tim needs a crowded batfam is because is role is to learn and to fill in the cracks of he family. Without the concept of family , as he call justice here, Tim going solo is good as it is, but that was never what he is about. I can't wrap my head around Red Robin being so regarded as something natural for Tim . People say his oocness began in Rebirth since he goes from a guy who kinda didn't know what he was getting into but was nice and resilient enough to stay, to someone who always have had a long term goal to be the best and a mastermind, but I have seen the signs since RR. Suddenly Tim "knew" everything. It was written by a guy who had never touched a bat character before and it shows. It feels to me so disconnected from the continuity. No wonder under tynion Tim is even more isolated and convoluted.

[QUOTE]But what is Tim Drake's purpose? He was originally meant to be the normal kid who was a copy of the Bruce Wayne in terms of social-economic standing but without the dead parent. But Tim still had a lonely and isolated childhood because his parents were benignly neglectful. But then his parents were killed and he became an orphan and later the son of Batman. But clearly, DC realised that this made Tim too much like Dick and Jason and so we got an awful walk back of his parent's death in N52.

That's so far from what Tim was meant to be. Remember this is post Dark Knight Rises. And DC tried with an edgier Robin. It failed spectacularly for them. Tim wasn't just Robin. Nor was he redeeming a tarnished mantle. He was redeeming Bruce. Because Bruce post-Death In The Family was angry and violent.

Jim Gordon in several instances was worried about this more violent Batman. Because a Batman that callous and merciless would be useless in reforming the corruption in Gotham. We see this a lot in real life. Yeah, Giuliani managed to "clean up" the streets of New York by enacting much harsher measures. But it cost people in many neighborhoods their sense of liberty. All in the name of "public safety." When Batman is employing the same methods as the crooked cops and politicians he and Gordon were fighting, because they weren't only going after Two Face or Joker or the Riddler, how can Gordon continue to work to clean up Gotham? Gordon was close to seeking a warrant for the Batman. Tim comes in near the zenith of Batman's reckless drive for vengeance.

Dick and Jason were Bruce's sidekicks. They were the ones who followed orders and executed them. Even as an adult, Dick is much more willing to go along with Bruce. It's rare for them to butt heads about a plan of action. Tim, though, wasn't trained from the outset to be a sidekick. Yeah, Bruce was his mentor. But from day one Tim was calling Bruce, and Dick, on his shit. He called out Bruce on being unnecessarily violent. He called out Dick for being up his ass and not being there for Bruce or Jason. In many ways Tim filled in for Silver Age Batgirl, who also acted as a check for Bruce and Dick. Tim came in on much more even footing. Before he was Bruce's student or son, he was acting as Bruce's partner.

Pre-52, of the Bats, Dick and Barbara were absolutely equal to Bruce in terms of the global heroes. Dick was an accomplished leader and crime fighter on his own. Barbara was the pre-eminent information broker and techno-wizard of the world's heroes. But in Gotham, Robin was every bit the equal of Nightwing and Batman. Because it was Robin that stood up for a Cassandra Cain looking for redemption. It was Robin that showed Nightwing that you don't need to go after Ivy by attacking her plants first. It was Robin that reminded Batman that their duty to the city meant they had a duty to all of the city's citizens - the ones upholding the law and the ones breaking it.

Where the N52 spectacularly failed Tim was that it erased him as Bruce's partner. Not sidekick. Not son. Partner. Tim was no longer the person pointing out when Bruce or Dick had a spectacularly bad idea. When they were being unnecessarily self-sacrificing. The Pre-52 Red Robin run was a stark contrast to what came before, not just because this was Tim at his lowest point, but because this was Tim who had learned from the mistakes of his mentors. Where Dick and Bruce would almost never call for help, Tim did. And sure, Tim got caught with a list of people to watch, but he didn't leave out files on how to take down the world's heroes. They stuck him with the name "Red Robin," but they erased his biggest strength from day one - Tim learns.

And this is where Tynion completely lost me with his run. For someone who claims to be a huge fan of Tim, he missed the very essence of who Tim was. Sure, he's smart. All of the Bats are smart. They have to be, because they're humans surrounded by aliens who can move planets and people who can run faster than light. He wasn't the heart of the family. That's Dick. He wasn't the soul of the family. That's Bruce. Tim was the family's morality. Tim's reason for being in a mask was The Mission. He needed to center Bruce to keep him from straying and perverting The Mission. He needed to bring Dick back so that Bruce had someone to lean on for The Mission. He trained and then helped take down Jean-Paul Valley for The Mission. That pursuit of justice, so that there weren't anymore orphans in alleyways? That's Tim. Yes, one of his greatest skills in his intellect. But that isn't what defined Tim.

And this is something that's seriously missing in all of the Bat titles. Not one of them is pursuing The Mission objectively. Batman is no longer the World's Greatest Detective, he's "The Night That Punches Whilst Suffering From Some Vague Ennui." While Dick does have a sense of Justice, it's never been his defining moment. Dick shines best when he gets to be the good guy doing good guy things. And sometimes you can't pursue Justice and be the good guy. Jason and Damian are...well...Jason and Damian. And their idea of Justice is that it's a lot like Vengeance. Which I think a lot of current readers also subscribe to.

So you want a place for Tim? Give him Gotham. Give him the crime book. Give him to a competent writer who can tell those mysteries. Or even just a couple of gang wars and some drug smuggling. Let Bruce and Dick and Jason and Damian handle the weird, millennia spanning secret societies and ancient wisdom shit. And put Tim back where he did his best work. Protecting Gotham and all the people in it. The good, the bad and the in-between. Ferreting out police corruption and foiling another kidnapping by Hatter. Letting Ivy go because she was the one who kept a pedophile from snatching some kids, but also reminding The Penguin that he knows what goes on in The Iceberg Lounge. [/QUOTE]

This guy on Reddit gets it. The reason I say Tim needs a crowded batfam is because his role is to learn and to fill in the cracks of he family. Without the concept of family , as he call justice here, Tim going solo is good as it is, but that was never what he is about. I can't wrap my head around Red Robin being so regarded as something natural for Tim . People say his oocness began in Rebirth since he goes from a guy who kinda didn't know what he was getting into but was nice and resilient enough to stay, to someone who always have had a long term goal to be the best and a mastermind,but I have seen the signs since RR. Suddenly Tim "knew" everything, planning everything, and talks too much about himself. It was written by a guy who had never touched a bat character before and it shows. It feels to me so disconnected from the continuity. No wonder reboot Tim has no place anymore and under tynion Tim is even more isolated and convoluted.

[QUOTE=nhienphan2808;3826048]This guy on Reddit gets it. The reason I say Tim needs a crowded batfam is because his role is to learn and to fill in the cracks of he family. Without the concept of family , as he call justice here, Tim going solo is good as it is, but that was never what he is about. I can't wrap my head around Red Robin being so regarded as something natural for Tim . People say his oocness began in Rebirth since he goes from a guy who kinda didn't know what he was getting into but was nice and resilient enough to stay, to someone who always have had a long term goal to be the best and a mastermind,but I have seen the signs since RR. Suddenly Tim "knew" everything, planning everything, and talks too much about himself. It was written by a guy who had never touched a bat character before and it shows. It feels to me so disconnected from the continuity. No wonder reboot Tim has no place anymore and under tynion Tim is even more isolated and convoluted.[/QUOTE]


The Spiel used to sell Tim and make him part of the family is what makes him redundant these days.

Batman doesn't need him. The batfamily doesn't need him and the preposterous reasons given for his existence can no longer be applied to the current Batfmily.

He is superfluous. Bat left-overs that DC's struggling to make palatable.
We have a robin and more.

While Batman might be blue yet again thanks to Selina dumping him. Dick has been assigned the role of Robin who brings Batman back for the edge.

The very presence of Damian means that Bruce now has even bigger motivation from going dark. A young son who he is trying to keep on the redemption path.

If Tim had joined the family like all the rest then he'd have a stronger foot hold but he didn't. He joined as a place holder and that's caught up.

Tim has no place because of how he began not because of writers

[QUOTE=dietrich;3826120]The Spiel used to sell Tim and make him part of the family is what makes him redundant these days.

Batman doesn't need him. The batfamily doesn't need him and the preposterous reasons given for his existence can no longer be applied to the current Batfmily.

He is superfluous. Bat left-overs that DC's struggling to make palatable.
We have a robin and more.

While Batman might be blue yet again thanks to Selina dumping him. Dick has been assigned the role of Robin who brings Batman back for the edge.

The very presence of Damian means that Bruce now has even bigger motivation from going dark. A young son who he is trying to keep on the redemption path.

If Tim had joined the family like all the rest then he'd have a stronger foot hold but he didn't. He joined as a place holder and that's caught up.

Tim has no place because of how he began not because of writers[/QUOTE]

Good point. I'd say at the time Dick and Bruce's relationship went bad bc of Jason's death, Batman needs him. After all, the reason The dcau went to hell is that we didn't have a Tim Drake who saved Bruce. (Tim is Jason in that) but he hasn't need him since 1998 or sooner, when Denny O'Neil decides to bring Oracle back. He become the one who needs batman and Dick. So we have Tim go out with Young Justice. Again, nothing Dick didn't do pre-Jason in the previous continuity. Speaking of Oracle, I feel like when we talk about how tim infringes others we don't talk about her? Tim took her Pre-crisis place of gladiator and her computer role post Crisis, and now fandom is believing tim can be the computer mastermind guy who apparently "knew" things before he planned them. If anyone in the batfam is the most like Bruce plus tech skills and ambition and sometimes, God complex, it's Barbara. It's good to see her putting him in his place in Rebirth.

[QUOTE=dietrich;3826120]The Spiel used to sell Tim and make him part of the family is what makes him redundant these days.

Batman doesn't need him. The batfamily doesn't need him and the preposterous reasons given for his existence can no longer be applied to the current Batfmily.

He is superfluous. Bat left-overs that DC's struggling to make palatable.
We have a robin and more.

While Batman might be blue yet again thanks to Selina dumping him. Dick has been assigned the role of Robin who brings Batman back for the edge.

The very presence of Damian means that Bruce now has even bigger motivation from going dark. A young son who he is trying to keep on the redemption path.

If Tim had joined the family like all the rest then he'd have a stronger foot hold but he didn't. He joined as a place holder and that's caught up.

Tim has no place because of how he began not because of writers[/QUOTE]

Perhaps he'd do best divorced from the Bat-Family and in the Young Justice book we've mentioned here, and in a new identity.

[QUOTE=nhienphan2808;3826048]This guy on Reddit gets it. The reason I say Tim needs a crowded batfam is because his role is to learn and to fill in the cracks of he family. Without the concept of family , as he call justice here, Tim going solo is good as it is, but that was never what he is about. I can't wrap my head around Red Robin being so regarded as something natural for Tim . People say his oocness began in Rebirth since he goes from a guy who kinda didn't know what he was getting into but was nice and resilient enough to stay, to someone who always have had a long term goal to be the best and a mastermind,but I have seen the signs since RR. Suddenly Tim "knew" everything, planning everything, and talks too much about himself. It was written by a guy who had never touched a bat character before and it shows. It feels to me so disconnected from the continuity. No wonder reboot Tim has no place anymore and under tynion Tim is even more isolated and convoluted.[/QUOTE]

You speak of the character depending on Batman or the others to have a function. But most of his good stories where about him as a character dealing with issues unrelated to the family.

Him being an underdog getting by on wits is what makes him interesting to read. How grounded the character was made him palatable, but every character, even peter parker, has to move on and grow up, and so did Tim, this character development wasnt a bad thing, him growing up into a capable crime fighter was a great development that had been teased for decades, him living up to his own potential while at the same time struggling with a lot of the problems that heroes before him faced was a good place to be in. From a storytelling standpoint its thrilling and gripping stuff, its a definite direction for a character and something that keeps the reader engaged.

As an observation, a lot of you guys seem to clamor for character development, but are far too eager to put characters in a box. If the problem is that you cant put Tim in a box, then its a good problem to have and something that definitely should be explored.


PS: In RR Tim didnt know everything. He knew he couldnt trust Ras, he knew Ras would want to get revenge, he knew Lady Shiva would want to test him, he knew hed have to fool whomever wanted him dead, all stuff that had been previously experienced and learned. He didnt know the script, he got caught in a bad spot constantly, a lot of his plans backfired, or werent really needed, or worked but just made things worse. He got outwitted, outsmarted and outmatched often. Also he was far more interesting when writen by Nicieza or Yost than when writen by williams or lewis.

[QUOTE=Mataza;3827336]You speak of the character depending on Batman or the others to have a function. But most of his good stories where about him as a character dealing with issues unrelated to the family.

Him being an underdog getting by on wits is what makes him interesting to read. How grounded the character was made him palatable, but every character, even peter parker, has to move on and grow up, and so did Tim, this character development wasnt a bad thing, him growing up into a capable crime fighter was a great development that had been teased for decades, him living up to his own potential while at the same time struggling with a lot of the problems that heroes before him faced was a good place to be in. From a storytelling standpoint its thrilling and gripping stuff, its a definite direction for a character and something that keeps the reader engaged.

As an observation, a lot of you guys seem to clamor for character development, but are far too eager to put characters in a box. If the problem is that you cant put Tim in a box, then its a good problem to have and something that definitely should be explored.


PS: In RR Tim didnt know everything. He knew he couldnt trust Ras, he knew Ras would want to get revenge, he knew Lady Shiva would want to test him, he knew hed have to fool whomever wanted him dead, all stuff that had been previously experienced and learned. He didnt know the script, he got caught in a bad spot constantly, a lot of his plans backfired, or werent really needed, or worked but just made things worse. He got outwitted, outsmarted and outmatched often. Also he was far more interesting when writen by Nicieza or Yost than when writen by williams or lewis.[/QUOTE]

EVERYTHING is more interesting when written by Nicieza.