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[QUOTE=Ascended;4518133]I think there's a number of reasons they decided to "promote" Vic. He's "toyetic" yes (great word) I think that played into it, but he also offers a powerset the League doesn't have (Batman's gadgets notwithstanding), decades of history and a fair amount of larger media appearances, and he's a non-legacy character. John Stewart would've made more sense yes, but he shares the GL mantle with several characters, and Hal casts a big shadow. A lot of other PoC heroes are in a similar situation; they either lack the history and uniqueness to make them appealing as "core League" or they're tied to other (usually white) heroes (like Steel).
Really, I think if DC was going to pick a black character to put into the League who really offers something unique to the group and can stand as a solo IP, your options are basically Vic, Black Lightning, and Vixen. All of them offer something to the League beyond diversity, all of them have decades as team players, etc. But DC had beef with Isabella and Vixen doesn't have quite as deep a history as Cyborg does. I think now, after Metal and everything, DC has started to see something in Mr. Terrific that goes beyond the Batman-style "tech-based, stoic guy" archetype but back in 2011 he was too close to Bruce in terms of what he offered.
Vic *could* be a great League member....but DC hasn't given us that yet. And he definitely needs his Titans history back. He doesn't need to be a founder of the League, I actually think he offers more as a Titan who moved up. We need that "90's Wally West/Kyle Rayner" perspective and as a highly experienced hero working on a new team, *the* team, Vic would be a great fit.....if only DC put in some effort.[/QUOTE]
I think with how things have ultimately turned out, Vixen and Black Lightning would have been much better choices in the long run.
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Don't know if this is unpopular but I liked the designs of the Olympian gods from New 52 Wonder Woman.
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Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4518274]Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.[/QUOTE]
see now, that's just good old fashion common sense. however, I don't think John needs to be a founder, it would be cool but it would throw the order of Green Lantern recruitment out of whack. to be fair Cyborg technically had to business being promoted up at the time he did besides being a black guy and that did throw things out of whack for him. if we're just talking which characters made the most sense to be the founders to break up the assortment of white people, it would've made the most sense to have Black Lightning and Hawkgirl. Black Lightning is DC's strongest independent black male character, John Stewart is probably their most recognizable Black character overall but he doesn't carry his own brand in the same way Lightning does. they could've built a corner of the DC universe around Black Lightning. Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past. She could've been DC's Mighty Thor before Marvel thought to give Jane the hammer. Cyborg should've had time to grow into the league and DC's been letting him go to waste since that initial mistake.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4518274]Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.[/QUOTE]
It's that one minority at a time syndrome
As far as founders go I would've went with BL or Vixen if we're going to ignore John and Vic. Then again having all white founders +Jonn doesn't really bother me, it's the current team that counts in my eyes.
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4518276]see now, that's just good old fashion common sense. however, I don't think John needs to be a founder, it would be cool but it would throw the order of Green Lantern recruitment out of whack. to be fair Cyborg technically had to business being promoted up at the time he did besides being a black guy and that did throw things out of whack for him. if we're just talking which characters made the most sense to be the founders to break up the assortment of white people, it would've made the most sense to have Black Lightning and Hawkgirl. Black Lightning is DC's strongest independent black male character, John Stewart is probably their most recognizable Black character overall but he doesn't carry his own brand in the same way Lightning does. they could've built a corner of the DC universe around Black Lightning. Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past. She could've been DC's Mighty Thor before Marvel thought to give Jane the hammer. Cyborg should've had time to grow into the league and DC's been letting him go to waste since that initial mistake.[/QUOTE]
Black Lightning's daughters need to make a comeback as well. Taking them out of the picture is just as bad as DC constantly trying to downplay Cyborg's ties to the Titans.
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Controversial - I really find Dick Grayson to be way, way overhyped and don't really get his fans.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4518274]Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.[/QUOTE]
Whilst your right, because comics are founded on nostalgia a good chunk of the JLA is stuck in stasis on who should be in it. I personally feel that whilst the morrison run was great sticking permanently to that as as the ideal JLA is damaging. People say the older JLA were lame because they didnt have Superman etc but that allowed them to have tougher threats without the workd being destroyed 9/10 times.
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[QUOTE=DrNewGod;4518170]A Green Lantern is already a superhero, needing only a lever. Cyborg requires having pieces of who he is cut away. Not the best empowering story.[/QUOTE]
Losing pieces of himself is Victor's origin. It isn't his entire story.
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4518276] Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past. [/QUOTE]Kendra as a Founder feels wired to me for two reasons.
1. It doesn't really makes much sense for me to have her as Founder without Hawkman. He is the main protagonist of the "Hawkfranchise", so it should either be him or both of them together.
2. She is not the first Hawkgirl, that is Shiera.
I have not problem of her becoming a member later on without Hawkman on the team, but I don't see how this would make sense that early in continuity that she could be a founder.
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Personally I'd ditch the reincarnation thing for the Hawks and just have Kendra be Shayera's daughter via a human she fell in love with.
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[QUOTE=Crazy Diamond;3853073]DC's magic characters work best when they're being written by someone who actually knows theology (ex. John Ostrander) or the occult (ex. Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Rachel Pollack, J.M Dematteis). Otherwise they're too powerful and that means they get jobbed out or conveniently written out of the story so it doesn't end in five panels. I couldn't get into Shadowpact because it just felt like every other team superhero book out there but with magic characters in it which was a shame and kind of a waste. In fact, I think a good chunk of the magic DC characters worked better in Vertigo where they could explore themes like that. John Constantine never recovered from being put back in the DCU. It's said seeing him he's so watered down and bland.
Hal Jordan would work better as an anti-hero with his traits. In the older comics there was this tendency to have him act in questionable ways and the writers would rarely acknowledge it.
Guy Gardner's current origin is terrible. And now he's bland and nonthreatening too. Him being a Red Lantern was good for him because as a Green Lantern he'd done it all. His story was over.
If the DC wants to have a multiverse they should try taking advantage of it. I mean why have the Wildstorm charaters be also rans on Earth-Prime when they could be their own imprint again on their own Earth?
Kon-El was a great character till he was retconned by Geoff Johns. He was never the same after that. It just sucked the life out of his character.
Grant Morrison did his best work when he wasn't writing superheroes. Maybe the upcoming GL book will prove me wrong but I felt he said all he needed to say with All-Star Superman.[/QUOTE]
Most of the YJ cast was better off before Johns.
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[QUOTE=DrNewGod;4518170]A Green Lantern is already a superhero, needing only a lever. Cyborg requires having pieces of who he is cut away. Not the best empowering story.[/QUOTE]
I think Vic's story can be very empowering, in the same way that Barbara Gordon's story as Oracle was empowering. They were crippled but didn't let it ruin or stop them (granted Vic had a long struggle making peace with himself, but he stepped up nonetheless) and they made their situations work for them. I've seen a lot of people talk about how those characters meant a lot and inspired them to keep going after accidents of their own. Just depends on how you look at it......and how DC spins it, too I suppose.
[QUOTE=Frontier;4518172]I think with how things have ultimately turned out, Vixen and Black Lightning would have been much better choices in the long run.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem was Vic, but the way writers have folded him (or rather, failed to) into the League's dynamic. And I'm not sure if it would have gone any better with Jeff or Vixen. Jeff especially has/had a number of real-world factors in the mix with Isabella (which may be what prevented him from being the new guy in New52) that likely would've caused problems. The problem isn't Vic and never has been, the problem is how DC has handled him in the League. Write him differently, do a better job making him feel like a real Leaguer, and the problem is solved. Gods know we've had far worse heroes on that roster over the years.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;4518274]Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.[/QUOTE]
No, we shouldn't have to pick. The fact that this is even an issue at all is pretty shameful. But that's DC.
Gods I miss McDuffie.
Although I'm of the mind that a lot less attention needs to be put on who was a founder, and more attention put on the current roster. I don't need Vic to be a founder. Don't need Jeff or John or anyone else who wasn't an actual founder to be retconned in either. What I want is for those characters to be members now, and to get the kind of effort, investment, and attention the other Leaguers get. If Vic or Jeff or Ryan Choi or who the hell ever is written as a important member of the team, that's what matters, not whether they get inserted into a story they weren't there for from decades and decades ago.
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They should just leave the founding seven alone: Clark, Bruce, Diana, Barry, Hal, Arthur and J'onn. Outside of flashback stories, we don't need to keep it strictly to them.
In present day stories, have the various Earth GLs rotate who is on the JL so we can have John, Jessica or Simon on it. Have Ryan Choi instead of Ray. In an ideal world, Barry would probably be dead and we'd have Wally but Barry still would have been the founding Flash.
And Vic would be better off as a former Titan who later joined the JL. Stripping him of his Titans history did him absolutely no favors. It's not worth him being there from the beginning, doing nothing important, if he loses all the Titans stuff as a trade off.
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[QUOTE=DrNewGod;4518170]
And Vic would be better off as a former Titan who later joined the JL. Stripping him of his Titans history did him absolutely no favors. It's not worth him being there from the beginning, doing nothing important, if he loses all the Titans stuff as a trade off.[/QUOTE]
Damn straight. That Titans history is....I mean, that's his whole character! All his development, relationships, everything, is tied up there. He's got the chutzpah to be a solo act and build his own mythos, but you gotta start somewhere and the Titans provide decades of foundation work to build on.
Additionally, now that Wally and Kyle are out of the League, we don't have that perspective of the guy who "graduated" to the team. Vic could/should fill that role. Despite being an experienced hero who spent many years fighting demon kings and alien invasions with the Titans, he'd still be able to serve as an audience surrogate for the League.
I mean, I want Black Lightning and John Stewart (and several other PoC's and women) on the roster, but Vic definitely has something viable to add to the JLA.....if DC could only try a little bit.