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I think all in all, it's a fruitless argument that has been disproved enough times to be tiring at this point. If canon material and facts showing how the two versions highly contradict each other in such fundamental ways to be entirely OOC isn't enough, then I don't know what else there is to say.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4744780]Pre and Post Crisis Robin Jason have more common than UTRH Jason and Red Head Jason do.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=RedBird;4744821]I think all in all, it's a fruitless argument that has been disproved enough times to be tiring at this point. If canon material and facts showing how the two versions highly contradict each other in such fundamental ways to be entirely OOC isn't enough, then I don't know what else there is to say.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't resist myself to comment on why I thought differently; after 8 hours of work without proper sleep time I'm too open to argue about whatever :_____D. But at least I know it's not that I remember it all that wrongly.
I recently reread Revenge of the Red Hood and I can kind of see where that other person comes from. Morrison used Jason as a means to express his ideas rather than use him as a character but despite that, is not that much OOC. In fact, the only thing I can find to be completely OOC is his murder of the cops at the start since Jason was never one to kill people that easy. That said, his take on Jason reads like the logical endpoint of Winnick's Jason because, and this is important to never forget, [B]Winnick never saw Jason as anything but a villain.[/B] To Winnick there was no redemption, no forgiveness, no nuance, he always considered Jason a villain all the way through.
Lobdell, on the other hand, has never seen Jason as a villain and in fact, the only condition he put when he landed the gig was being allowed to redeem Jason and inching him closer to be a hero.
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4745039]I recently reread Revenge of the Red Hood and I can kind of see where that other person comes from. Morrison used Jason as a means to express his ideas rather than use him as a character but despite that, is not that much OOC. In fact, the only thing I can find to be completely OOC is his murder of the cops at the start since Jason was never one to kill people that easy. That said, his take on Jason reads like the logical endpoint of Winnick's Jason because, and this is important to never forget, [B]Winnick never saw Jason as anything but a villain.[/B] To Winnick there was no redemption, no forgiveness, no nuance, he always considered Jason a villain all the way through.
Lobdell, on the other hand, has never seen Jason as a villain and in fact, the only condition he put when he landed the gig was being allowed to redeem Jason and inching him closer to be a hero.[/QUOTE]
Mmmm... I remember finding myself thinking that Winick's Jason wouldn't have done things like he did, his personality and behaviour felt definitely way off for me at that time. It wasn't that he was so obviously villanious even; it was how he did things, how he said things, and how he reacted. I guess I could reread it and see, but I really got that strong impression that I still remember clearly. He came across to me as some clown who overreacted and claimed for everyone's attention in the most noisy way. Which has little to do with how I remember Jason did claim attention or let himself be noticed by others. Or played his dramatics. I know Winick didn't saw him as anything like a hero. But then in the Outsiders, when he showed up briefly (I think I remember looking at these issues out of curiosity), he wasn't a villain exactly either, if I recall correctly. It's weird. Or really, I can't read his Jason as he meant him to be readed. Because when he rewrote Under the Hood for the movie, I could still feel a lot of sympathy for Jason, despite him being the villain.
I know that Lobdell's isn't a perfect copy of that Jason either; but at times, he really feels like he could still be. I remember having that feel not long ago, this year maybe by spring or so. Can't remember which issue.
But I don't have an issue with Seeley's Jason in that wedding special (and I think some people have them. For me, it was humorous, but not off. Just a different mood), so there's that too. It's something akin to headcanons I guess.
Winnick's Jason has a purpose. He wants Joker dead. He just didn't care about the damages it caused to get there. Morrison's Jason and Jason who terrorized Tim in Teen Titans feels like someone who couldn't achieve that purpose, so he decided to target his brothers like throwing a tantrum.
The Nightwing/Tentacle Jason... I don't know what he's doing. He got bored maybe. Which is funny, because that's the first Jason that appeared after Under The Red Hood, I think, so it's like "Dang, Batman beats me. Might as well dick around and play hero for a while since big bro's not here"
The way he's written after Under The Red Hood until New 52 it's clear they don't know what to do with him. Nightwing Jason dicks around for a year, Teen Titans Jason bullied Tim, then he goes heroic with Donna and Kyle, then he went nuts trying to be Batman, and then he trolls the new Batman and Robin, and then he GTFO of town with a new sidekick. Viewed as a whole it's hilarious. Can it be argued that he really lost purpose and that's why he's so random?
My Red Hood figure has arrived this week.
The figure is very, very nice. (Sorry for the bad photo quality.)
Jason is now guarding my collection of unread trades. :D
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Thanks again @Dark_Tzitzimine and @johnpeelgothisgun for the recommendations. :)
If Jason's purpose was just the Joker's death, he would have done it himself. What Jason truly wanted in UTRH was for Bruce to prove that he [I]cared[/I]. He didn't care about the batfamily or any other hero except Bruce which is why him suddenly becoming obsessed with the other Robins post UTRH never made any sense.
Saying that Morrison's take on Red Hood is the "logical" endpoint for Winick's take is quite funny to me because the way Winick handled Jason when he took over BR speak volumes about how unhappy he was with what Morrison has done.
[QUOTE]Lobdell, on the other hand, has never seen Jason as a villain and in fact, the only condition he put when he landed the gig was being allowed to redeem Jason and inching him closer to be a hero.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't really about how he saw Jason. Lobdell simply didn't feel like he want to write a story about a villain at that time, be it Jason or anyone else.
[QUOTE=Rise;4745181]If Jason's purpose was just the Joker's death, he would have done it himself. What Jason truly wanted in UTRH was for Bruce to prove that he [I]cared[/I]. He didn't care about the batfamily or any other hero except Bruce which is why him suddenly becoming obsessed with the other Robins post UTRH never made any sense.
Saying that Morrison's take on Red Hood is the "logical" endpoint for Winick's take is quite funny to me because the way Winick handled Jason when he took over BR speak volumes about how unhappy he was with what Morrison has done.
[/QUOTE]
It's how I remember perceiving it too. The whole UtH was about Jason's own insecurities as someone who maybe wasn't loved after all. It wasn't about proving Bruce that his methods didn't work, or controlimg crime, or even killing Joker. It was about Jason "crying" because he wanted to know if someone really cared for him. And I think, when he beat Tim in TTitans (under Johns), that too, was more about proving a point to Tim and Jason himself (that Bruce didn't care enough about any Robin), than proving that Tim was inferior to him or didn't deserve being Robin. It's why he didn't kill him in the end. Jason has this whole "I said this and deny that to even myself saying the contrary, but I show this feeling and act that way in reality" under Lobdell too, even if it's less subtle. Dini's too had those features. And Jason in AK too, was that way.
His "bad blood" with the fam was, for me, more "Why didn't you love me, why wasn't I worth enough?" than "Fuck you, I'll make you pay for not accepting me the way I am," which is somethimg he seems to not care much about, and something I think Lobdell understood well, too.
But, like I said, this may be very similar to how we create our own headcanons.
Edit: @Restingvoice. I think, by Countdown, they did have a plan for him. But then they ditched it in the last months of that year for whatever reason. And then comes Morrison's whole period (with other writers alongside him) if I'm not getting my order wrong. Brothers in Blood, too, was a bit of an editorial mess and wasn't mean to be like that, or so I've heard someone else comment once. If it helps.
[QUOTE=Sergard;4745166]My Red Hood figure has arrived this week.
The figure is very, very nice. (Sorry for the bad photo quality.)
Jason is now guarding my collection of unread trades. :D
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Thanks again @Dark_Tzitzimine and @johnpeelgothisgun for the recommendations. :)[/QUOTE]
Still the pose I've liked the most of any figure so far. It's really, really nice looking. I envy you :3_.
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4740146]Cute little nod to the Outlaws in today's Flash Forward #4
[img]https://i.imgur.com/DtQKhBN.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/vg9QxUj.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/CCwYRXB.jpg[/img]
I love the idea of the Outlaws of Justice. Lobdell should brought back his old pitch (hilariously relevant after Doomsday's Clock end) and have multiple Outlaws team-up.[/QUOTE]
Who is fused with whom?
I recognize Cheetah and Creeper.
Swamp Thing and Etrigan seem to have their usual design.
Is Jason just a Red Lantern or is there a reference to a certain member of the Red Lantern Corps?
[QUOTE=Sergard;4745338]Who is fused with whom?
I recognize Cheetah and Creeper.
Swamp Thing and Etrigan seem to have their usual design.
Is Jason just a Red Lantern or is there a reference to a certain member of the Red Lantern Corps?[/QUOTE]Bizzaro and Killer Croc?
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4745221]Still the pose I've liked the most of any figure so far. It's really, really nice looking. I envy you :3_.[/QUOTE]
I love the pose too. It looks natural.
Jason seems to observe the area and is ready to strike any moment if necessary.
But there is also some element of easiness in his pose earned by experience.
The figure size is great too since I don't have a lot of space.
The box is surprisingly big but as seen in the photo I can use it as bookend. :).
[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B6WoDXCgyUP/"]inkydandy[/URL]
[IMG]https://scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/74667972_167655167801522_9055826008785844130_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=j_FV7DVfXCsAX8vLLpo&oh=0b5350d3eca3099bafc4167a1d68c8c6&oe=5EA6BBD1[/IMG]
[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B6WPk2jlLUO/"]Kao (kaokaocin)[/URL]
[IMG]https://scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/75379852_570160600199730_5132304699800473232_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=106&_nc_ohc=sLiYieIIo-MAX940w_b&oh=054bbb0bcbba564d5c19ce67fd9dcb4c&oe=5E9BC4D9[/IMG]
[URL="https://twitter.com/FGaaang/status/1208772330148679681"]@FGaaang[/URL]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMZsBf9UwAARa84?format=jpg[/IMG]
[URL="https://teeahra.tumblr.com/post/189756198021/his-costume-is-kinda-cool-i-guess"]teeahra[/URL]
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/5cf0d656c5256bcc7bb575c2e1bb80d8/4677e3e3fda8adb5-10/s1280x1920/5abe80c9846ccb2eb09a5ea73cf28ea588f490a1.png[/IMG]
[URL="https://onipilot.tumblr.com/post/189606306034/can-i-request-jason-and-diana-eating-ice-cream-3c"]onipilot[/URL] (Diana Prince and Jason Todd eating ice cream)
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/402ea4865c3bde75de4a225f963ee8ab/b17a954214bc97f8-14/s500x750/75c60969dd9e1916f91c8a3c936d15361de1cdc3.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Sergard;4746684]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMZsBf9UwAARa84?format=jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I immediately guess the artist is Korean before paying attention to the letters just because he looks like a Korean boyband member ^^