Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2019

[QUOTE=redmax99;4712814]no jason is a victim, harley was a grown woman who knowingly ran into the arms of a serial killer who was her patient. i don't know why people try to compare Barbra and jason to harley a woman who threw her whole life way to be with a killer[/QUOTE]

I agree, and for the sake of clarity I would like to make my standpoint clear on this and expand on why I placed 'victims' in quotation marks earlier.

Compared to Harley Quinn, Babs and Jason were much more like innocent bystanders when they crossed deadly paths with the Joker, even in the situations of how their trauma took place, Babs being in the safety of her own home and Jason trying to find and reassure his mother. Harley's story is that she was more or less seduced by the Joker and manipulated further once she was blinded by her love, but yes, she very much knew him to be a murderous crazed criminal and still [I]chose[/I] to side with him, all whilst adopting a new criminal persona for herself as well.

Whilst I completely agree with you on this topic of Harley not being [I]nearly[/I] in the same category as Babs and Jason, this idea of Harley as being 'just a victim', is in all fairness, whether we like it or not, kind of how she is seen now a days and it's perpetuated by DC. It's why she is placed in stories like 'Heroes in Crisis', and within that book when she is crossing paths with Babs, she isn't treated with any sort of wariness or distance, instead she gets a hug.


I apologize ahead for this tangent but...
Harley's antics in her main books, seem to be [I]carefully[/I] ensured that no matter how violent or reprehensible they are, they are presented so cartoonishly loony and therefore too unimpactful, to show her as anything other than a 'fun loving clown gal'. And that's totally fine by itself, but then the abuse narrative shows up and becomes the only thing that's presented as carrying any sort of weight and therefore ensures that she is only seen as a victim of Joker, whilst her own crimes with or without him are swept under the rug by the guise of being just a 'ca-razy girl power' anthem.

I love her growth as an independent character, but I think often times the idea of her as the [I]face of abuse victims[/I] has created such a black and white view over her origin, one that leaves little room for any nuance to her as a character and not a symbol, lest she be seen as unsympathetic. She was an intelligent woman who found her escapism fantasy in a love for a murderous monster, and who was completely fine with hurting and killing others with reckless abandon alongside her lover, but then as soon as, said lover, hurts her instead, she becomes 'just a victim', and often that ends up overshadowing her character, despite the obvious context by which it all occurs.


Side note: I been loving 'Harleen' by Stjepan Sejic though, the tone is much more thoughtful there and considering it's structured from the more automatically sympathetic position of being in Harleys mind and her POV, it still feels much more self aware and critical. I'm curious to see how that story finalizes her origin.

[QUOTE=Denirac;4712868]As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.[/QUOTE]

but jason is a victim of joker's just like barbra, harley is not she chose him knowing he was a serial killer, he was in arkham when she met him. i can admit jason is a serial killer, but what does being a killer have to do with harley not being one of joker victims. tell me why a woman who fell in love with a mass murder while he was in an mental institute for the criminally insane a victim of his because he beat her he kills women and children just for fun and she knew that. i don't put her in the same category as jason or barbra because at least they were innocent bystanders or people when joker attack them. harley wanted to be by joker side no matter the abuse or the cost. look im not saying harley not a victim she is she just not one of joker victims

[QUOTE=Denirac;4712868]As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.[/QUOTE]

A victim card is part of the fabrication of victimhood, which I don't think applies to Jason.

Jason was a victim as a child, he was innocent when he was made to be a victim, and now is still suffering the consequences of said trauma through his adulthood. No one is saying that Joker made him a mass murderer, in the end that was entirely his choice. If we are regarding how his current actions would make him unsympathetic and render his victimhood null, well context matters, and in comparison to Joker who is usually presented as the pinnacle for despicable and criminal human behavior, it's safe to say that Jason doesn't carry the same values as the Joker, he doesn't kill in order to create needless chaos and harm like the Joker. His victim hood was not a fabrication nor have his actions ever been equally comparative to his perpetrator, Joker, despite the lethal measures he takes.

By contrast, Harley became a mass murderer alongside Joker, she was fine with killing under the Jokers values of needless chaos and harm, before she came across the consequences of said actions, her victimization came only after her long criminal actions, which were much more comparative and in line with her perpetrators.


There is a difference.

[QUOTE=Denirac;4712794]I'd almost argue that Jason and Harley have more in common than a lot of DCU Characters, They're both Psychologically Damaged Victims of Joker's Insanity but in different ways- at their core, both have been Broken by Joker. Harley's Insane and Jason isnt exactly what one describes as Stable, It feels more natural than Jason and Talia at least[/QUOTE]

I have a lot in common with people that I'm pretty sure I don't want to have even a one night stand, let alone an actual love affair. I also have some issues that I'm pretty sure are something I wouldn't want to have to deal with with others, because it could be a neverending feedback of arguing, anxiety and angryness: If I'm going to find someone to share my life with, I will find someone who can deal with them and has his own that I can deal with.

Being unstable doesn't mean that he would feel attached to someone who is al well. And Jason isn't crazy, just to point out. He has issues, like everyone. You could argue that Bruce is as unstable as Jason, or even more. What Jason is, is emotional, and he's driven by them. But not all the time, just when he's overflown by them. Like a lot of people. Just, a lot of people aren't vigilantes with training and resouces and a big PTSD.

They are all victims. Harley being a grownup or falling for the Joker doesn't make her any less a victim. That's a shitty thing to say.

I could say that Jason disobeyed orders and ran of not like Damian to save the world from his mum but because basically he wanted his mummy. He failed to listen to Bruce and ended up getting him killed. Does that make him any less of a victim because he actively chased his own death? Nope. They are all victims. Being a grown up doesn't change that.

I don't think that Jason and Harley should have a one night stand. Do they even have a relationship?

I know they have a connection via Joker but that's stretching it especially since Joker isn't Jason's arch.

Harley and bruce having that one date made sense she is his arch.

Harley attempting to rape Nightwing is a stretch but he's the DcU sex God that every woman wants. that's established so one can come by that angle but aside from that it makes little sense.

[QUOTE=Fergus;4712937]They are all victims. Harley being a grownup or falling for the Joker doesn't make her any less a victim. That's a shitty thing to say.
[/QUOTE]

I'm going to assume this isn't directed towards me since I clearly didn't say Harley wasn't a victim.

[QUOTE=Fergus;4712937]
I could say that Jason disobeyed orders and ran of not like Damian to save the world from his mum but because basically he wanted his mummy. He failed to listen to Bruce and ended up getting him killed. Does that make him any less of a victim because he actively chased his own death? Nope. They are all victims. Being a grown up doesn't change that.[/QUOTE]

This statement is just confusing. Also I don't know what Damian has to do with this?

Yeah, you could say Jason disobeyed an order because he 'wanted his mummy'. But that wasn't what got him killed? And he certainly didn't 'chase his own death'? I don't know how that pertains. Jason didn't 'get himself killed' he was contacting his mom when Joker crossed his path or more so trapped him and killed him. There was no way for him to know that simply speaking with his mother would lead to death via Joker.

[QUOTE=Denirac;4712868]As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.[/QUOTE]

He's not a mass murderer. A murderer, yeah, he's that. But victims who are manipulated into murder and become murderers are still victims, and they don't stop being so because they murder. Are the child soldiers that get to live into their later teens less victims because they are teens instead of kids or they have been indoctrinated into kill, taking advantage of the teens resent against whatever other faction? Because, that's in short what's happened to Jason, whom people tend to forget was a teen when he was traumatically killed, came back and became Red Hood.

He's still a killer, he chose (still chooses sometimes) to kill. But sometimes choices aren't clear for us, or we find outselves without a good choice at all, either because our circumstances, or the baggage we carry with us. Even for mature adults; we're responsible of our acts unless we're insane, but there are mitigating circumstances too, even for us. A beaten wife who has killed his husband to put an end to him beating her is still a victim, as much as a murderer.

The more I grow old and get to know people, the more grays I find. I was pretty black and white when I was in middle school, funny enough. I'm still pretty radical about certain things, but, funny enough, I wasn't about them then. Life's funny.

Just to be clear; I understand a mass murderer as someone who kills people systematically in a short period of time, and in big numbers. It's not just about the numbers. Back in the day, did the mafiosi and their thugs get called mass murderers? If they were, then, I guess I'm wrong. But I think, probably because my background as a historian, that the category is more fitting for people who exterminates a group of certain characteristics, in very high numbers, consistently. Certain take on Joker would be one just barely because the sheer amount of numbers, and because he chooses usually victims of a certain place as a collective. But not always.

@Denirac I'll give you credit, you weren't kidding when you said it was 'a controversial opinion', XD there's quite some push back here.

[URL="https://twitter.com/_zynix10/status/1201146958921883648"]_zynix10[/URL]
SaltBae

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Sorry, that I don't contribute anything to the Jason/Harley discussion but I don't like the idea.
And being traumatized by the Joker isn't a good enough reason.
Most batfam members are traumatized by the Joker. But that doesn't mean that Harley should f*ck with Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim, Damian or Alfred.

[URL="https://twitter.com/maple_DC/status/1200999197266198529"]maple_DC[/URL]

[B]cursed Jason Todd image[/B]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKrOS7nU4AEVggy?format=jpg&name=medium[/img]

Maybe basing a potential Harley & Jason relationship on something resembling a mutual sponsor/sponsee type of arrangement instead of anything romantic or intimate would be the better way to approach it. Under the right pen I think it could work (not that I have the slightest idea of who could do it).

[QUOTE=RedBird;4712955]I'm going to assume this isn't directed towards me since I clearly didn't say Harley wasn't a victim.



This statement is just confusing. Also I don't know what Damian has to do with this?

Yeah, you could say Jason disobeyed an order because he 'wanted his mummy'. But that wasn't what got him killed? And he certainly didn't 'chase his own death'? I don't know how that pertains. Jason didn't 'get himself killed' he was contacting his mom when Joker crossed his path or more so trapped him and killed him. There was no way for him to know that simply speaking with his mother would lead to death via Joker.[/QUOTE]

No it was directed at the poster Redmax 99

I meant that by Jason leaving when he was told not one could blame him for falling into the hands of Joker.

Harley didn't set out to fall for Joker anymore than Jason expected to fall into his hands or Babs expected to find Joker on the other side of the door.

[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B4lU_O9jbVz/"]Symeona M. Kanellou[/URL]

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[URl="https://www.instagram.com/p/B5coyDQgOqX/"]Symeona M. Kanellou[/URL]

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[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B5iYCntAxYb/"]spaceboykenny[/URL]

[I]how to be perfect:
1. Hold a puppy
2. Be Jason Todd holding a puppy[/I]

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[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B5guXTIhUw6/"]zatou_08[/URL]

[I]Drew him after a long time #jasontodd #batman #redhood[/I]

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[QUOTE=RedBird;4712990]@Denirac I'll give you credit, you weren't kidding when you said it was 'a controversial opinion', XD there's quite some push back here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, wasn't kidding XD.

A simple panel, but one of my favorite for the shade it throws at Harley (so tired of her).

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Djf_4seWwAA2CdN.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4713112]A simple panel, but one of my favorite for the shade it throws at Harley (so tired of her).

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Djf_4seWwAA2CdN.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

And that was the moment when Jason fell in love with Artemis.

[QUOTE=Arsenal;4713028]Maybe basing a potential Harley & Jason relationship on something resembling a mutual sponsor/sponsee type of arrangement instead of anything romantic or intimate would be the better way to approach it. Under the right pen I think it could work (not that I have the slightest idea of who could do it).[/QUOTE]

Lobdell on his best day like early Rebirth could probably make it work

[QUOTE=RedBird;4712990]@Denirac I'll give you credit, you weren't kidding when you said it was 'a controversial opinion', XD there's quite some push back here.[/QUOTE]

I was tired of people saying "Controversial Opinion" and then saying something mundane

[QUOTE=Denirac;4713134]Lobdell on his best day like early Rebirth could probably make it work[/QUOTE]

Judging by the panel above, I don't think Lobdell particularly likes Harley.
Tom Taylor would probably be the better choice - and Taylor has already written both characters in the Injustice universe.

[QUOTE=Sergard;4713140]Judging by the panel above, I don't think Lobdell particularly likes Harley.
Tom Taylor would probably be the better choice - and Taylor has already written both characters in the Injustice universe.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say Lobdell particularly dislikes Harley, more sees her as unthreatening, unlike say.... Tom King who thinks she can solo the Trinity.

[QUOTE=Denirac;4713144]I wouldn't say Lobdell particularly dislikes Harley, more sees her as unthreatening, unlike say.... Tom King who thinks she can solo the Trinity.[/QUOTE]

Tom King is the personification of a Controversial Opinion thread.
The whole team-up between Harley and Batgirl felt odd too. But it seems like Barbara is the batfam member Harley is the closest to now (not that Harley was close to any other member before.)
Which is not a particular wrong move since both are victims of the Joker - and both are women which fits the female empowerment atmosphere around modern Harley.

(sorry for being off-topic)

[QUOTE=Fergus;4713032]

Harley didn't set out to fall for Joker anymore than Jason expected to fall into his hands or Babs expected to find Joker on the other side of the door.[/QUOTE]

See now, I agree she hadn't planned to become infatuated with the Joker, yes to that, but that's where the differences lie. Jason didn't expect to fall into the Jokers hands, but then what could he do about it? Nothing. Babs didn't expect to find Joker outside her door, but what could she have done? Nothing. They were either killed or severely paralyzed upon the Joker deciding their fate (or even sexually assaulted depending on your interpretation to Killing Joke). It's why I liken their victim hood to innocent bystanders or if we want to push it further as something akin to law enforcers killed/hurt whilst off duty. They didn't get a choice in the matter, and even if they had been hurt whilst fighting the Joker, their 'choices' would have been noble and altruistic and in order to stop Jokers terrorizing, again, more akin to law enforcers. (Later on Jason murders people and yes, that is his choice and he is responsible for his own criminal actions there, but his initial victimization was not something he could be held accountable for)

Now with Harley, she didn't expect to became infatuated with Joker whilst still as Harleen in the Asylum, and that certainly wasn't her fault and not something that could be controlled, but that's where her choices came into play. She felt infatuated with a mass murderer and despite that knowledge, she still wanted to be his lover, she was also his right hand man, she was killing and terrorizing people, she had a clown based persona of her own, those were HER choices. That was part of her agency. It's not just that Harley's love was something akin to people who become infatuated with serial killers and visit them in prison, she actively participated in his plans to terrorize innocent people often with nary a thought.

Is she a victim of the Jokers? Well, yes of course, eventually she certainly became one, he hurt her in ways she never expected. But given those points I mentioned and that context, I just don't think the victimization of Harley could be categorized in the exact same way as Jason and Babs, yet often times, that is how it is depicted. The nuance of her own agency and crimes are overshadowed by the victim she became.

[QUOTE=Denirac;4713136]I was tired of people saying "Controversial Opinion" and then saying something mundane[/QUOTE]

After seeing so many 'I hate Character X', comments in the 'Controversial Opinion' thread, I completely agree XD

So... Titans has ended already.

I don't think the season was very good, but it ended definitely better than how it started. The last episode and the ones before that one were fun and enjoyable. But eh, pacing was all over the place in the last one, and it felt a little, I don't know, cheap (not because the writing this time, but because some more technical stuff. It may be just me though. I'm a bit too much nitpicking and I'm aware of it :/).

Spoilers ahead about Jason.
[spoil]So they didn't kill him, which was what I expected; but they didn't make him rejoin the team either. It's arguable he's still joining Bruce as Robin, even. He seems to just be giving up on everything and going there carrying on with his probably very outlaw life. He isn't even coming back to the theatre. But, he got a cool bike. I guess we will know more next season, if we have one.[/spoil]

Spoilers about everything else.
[spoil]
I wasn't expecting Donna to die, or at least, not like that. A bit out of the blue, I think. I liked how they came to be together again, and I like how the Hank and Dawn conflicting relationship was resolved. I'm not too sold on Gar being angsty; but then, he doesn't have a lot of issues to work with, so I can understand that they would give him these. Conner is lovely, I want to hug him forever. Dick puts himself together; was about time, good lord. Kori is cool, as always. Raven is cool, but I don't like her coolness, too marysueish; I can see why they've put her in a bus, so to speak; because right know, she's a bit too deus ex machina for whatever conflict they could bring to the table. Rose has soft redeemed herself and now has a plus one with Jericho in her, and all that can be a nice starting point for a developing arc. And Bruce, I love this Bruce. Please, let him be like that. He's like Finch in Person of Interest, and Finch was so, so, so much more fun and interesting to watch than Reese.

I guess that, whatever/whoever made the Alko meeting happen, was probably behind all the weird stuff this season: Dick's hallucinations, Rachel's out of control powers, Kori loosing hers, and Jason having a heavy PTSD with the falling. I don't buy it all happening because of Rachel's powers.
[/spoil]

[QUOTE=Denirac;4713134]Lobdell on his best day like early Rebirth could probably make it work[/QUOTE]

That's a fair point, plus Lobdell did try something kinda similar by having Jason take Jokers daughter under his wing. Granted their partnership didn't work out in the end but that was due to her still being obsessed with Joker, unlike modern Harley.

[QUOTE=Sergard;4713140]Judging by the panel above, I don't think Lobdell particularly likes Harley.
Tom Taylor would probably be the better choice - and Taylor has already written both characters in the Injustice universe.[/QUOTE]

Lobdell doesn't like Harley? What makes you say that? Shame if it's true, I was just rereading the Suicide Squad rhato teamup yesterday, I actually liked his voice for Harley.
Same goes for Tom Taylor of course.

[QUOTE=Sergard;4713048][URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B5iYCntAxYb/"]spaceboykenny[/URL]

[I]how to be perfect:
1. Hold a puppy
2. Be Jason Todd holding a puppy[/I]

[IMG]https://scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/75214715_751333572034245_1515334286326201006_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=109&oh=67ca4406d026af87c95d65c191f0d5a3&oe=5E853AA1[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Oh man, this just reminded me of Dog, I wonder if we'll see her again when Isabel returns.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4713178]So... Titans has ended already.

I don't think the season was very good, but it ended definitely better than how it started. The last episode and the ones before that one were fun and enjoyable. But eh, pacing was all over the place in the last one, and it felt a little, I don't know, cheap (not because the writing this time, but because some more technical stuff. It may be just me though. I'm a bit too much nitpicking and I'm aware of it :/).

Spoilers ahead about Jason.
[spoil]So they didn't kill him, which was what I expected; but they didn't make him rejoin the team either. It's arguable he's still joining Bruce as Robin, even. He seems to just be giving up on everything and going there carrying on with his probably very outlaw life. He isn't even coming back to the theatre. But, he got a cool bike. I guess we will know more next season, if we have one.[/spoil]

Spoilers about everything else.
[spoil]
I wasn't expecting Donna to die, or at least, not like that. A bit out of the blue, I think. I liked how they came to be together again, and I like how the Hank and Dawn conflicting relationship was resolved. I'm not too sold on Gar being angsty; but then, he doesn't have a lot of issues to work with, so I can understand that they would give him these. Conner is lovely, I want to hug him forever. Dick puts himself together; was about time, good lord. Kori is cool, as always. Raven is cool, but I don't like her coolness, too marysueish; I can see why they've put her in a bus, so to speak; because right know, she's a bit too deus ex machina for whatever conflict they could bring to the table. Rose has soft redeemed herself and now has a plus one with Jericho in her, and all that can be a nice starting point for a developing arc. And Bruce, I love this Bruce. Please, let him be like that. He's like Finch in Person of Interest, and Finch was so, so, so much more fun and interesting to watch than Reese.

I guess that, whatever/whoever made the Alko meeting happen, was probably behind all the weird stuff this season: Dick's hallucinations, Rachel's out of control powers, Kori loosing hers, and Jason having a heavy PTSD with the falling. I don't buy it all happening because of Rachel's powers.
[/spoil][/QUOTE]

[spoil]Eh, the ending to Titans was a mess. Many of the reasons have been pointed out in the TV/Film thread for Titans. But Jason... Not a single word between Bruce and Dick about him. Not a word about his suicide attempt, depression, or feelings of abandonment. If he becomes an antagonist to the Titans in the future, can't say I blame him for it. With the two people that are supposed to be the closest to him, that's a low blow.[/spoil]

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4713262][spoil]Eh, the ending to Titans was a mess. Many of the reasons have been pointed out in the TV/Film thread for Titans. But Jason... Not a single word between Bruce and Dick about him. Not a word about his suicide attempt, depression, or feelings of abandonment. If he becomes an antagonist to the Titans in the future, can't say I blame him for it. With the two people that are supposed to be the closest to him, that's a low blow.[/spoil][/QUOTE]

[Spoil]Well, to be fair, I can see them pointing out that Jason is let alone with his problems to fare by himself, precisely, as a reason why both Dick and Bruce failed or are going to fail him (putting him in his way to RH). I think it's intentional, because no way someone delivers that family speech without taking Jason's case into account.

My main problem with this last episode was with pace and how they wanted to close too much plots in just 40-50 minutes, besides an epilogue even. They tried to put too much in one episode, and that means most of it isn't going to have a propper, satisfying closure. The writing this season, except for a few episodes, wasn't the best. But it could be a total mess, like the first episode of this season was, or it was in my opinion.[/spoil]

[URL="https://nac-nic.tumblr.com/post/189261277884/helloooo-saw-that-you-were-taking-requests-hehe#notes"]nac-nic[/URL]

[I]Jason and Dog are goals[/I]

[img]https://66.media.tumblr.com/ef1a72a38f13651a3380ca1d8033ac73/d44f3533f6fa9f80-9f/s1280x1920/c9a62ff9f97b2db71302a3c8e167066fb48e73fa.jpg[/img]

[URL="https://heuksae.tumblr.com/post/189414328353/twi"]heuksae[/URL]

[img]https://66.media.tumblr.com/9701141aaaa735c5bc758440c5df57ec/d2abcf410fe901d2-2a/s640x960/dcf2be031ca052fc268fe8f449d94606a72ec8dd.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=RedBird;4713184]Lobdell doesn't like Harley? What makes you say that? Shame if it's true, I was just rereading the Suicide Squad rhato teamup yesterday, I actually liked his voice for Harley.
Same goes for Tom Taylor of course.[/QUOTE]

Just a guess because of the panel. Artemis saying "She's a lunatic with a hammer." feels a little bit like Lobdell trying to drop his own opinion on Harley.
I actually don't know what to think of Harley Quinn's appearance in RHatO because I don't know how Harley is supposed to be. It feels like every writer has a slightly different take on her.



[QUOTE=RedBird;4713236]Oh man, this just reminded me of Dog, I wonder if we'll see her again when Isabel returns.[/QUOTE]

I hope so. I love Dog. Dog is a good Outpaw. xD

[QUOTE=Sergard;4713334]I hope so. I love Dog. Dog is a good Outpaw. xD[/QUOTE]

Outpaw! I love that
If the outlaws get another more stable home-base, I really wanna see a place made out, just for Dog.

[QUOTE=Sergard;4713334]I hope so. I love Dog. Dog is a good Outpaw. xD[/QUOTE]

AsafaasdfaSDFGASDFADFA...
You killed me.

Oh my gosh, now I am in need of story where Jason adopts SEVERAL Dogs and forms his new team, 'Red Hood and the Outpaws'

[QUOTE=RedBird;4713354]Oh my gosh, now I am in need of story where Jason adopts SEVERAL Dogs and forms his new team, 'Red Hood and the Outpaws'[/QUOTE]

Sounds like John wick

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4713396]Sounds like John wick[/QUOTE]

Excellent!

There could not have been a more better comparison than that. I love it.

"Red Pooch and the Outpaws!"