Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2019

Yeah, agreed to a T with your post.

Also, this story made me wonder if both writers are knowledgeable enough about Jason to actually have made those parallels intentionally. If it wasn't just me, it has to be intentional, right? I noticed another a bit less subtle:
[spoil]The moment Jeremy starts to doubt Joker and stops him is the moment the Joker stops playing pals with him and starts to act crude and violent towards him—regardless of the Joker going against his mother before that point, probably. Kind of how Batman works with Jason. Or, well, reversed.[/spoil]

EDIT: or, well, maybe we see those things because we know about him and look for similarities.

I don't know. This story really got me caught.
And it even made me laugh once (because it was fun at times*, too).

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618192]
EDIT: or, well, maybe we see those things because we know about him and look for similarities.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe, but whether intentional or not, it still made for an interesting read.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618192]
And it even made me laugh once (because it was fun at times*, too).[/QUOTE]

Yeah [spoil]the dog with the gun thing actually got me.[/spoil]

I know this kinda random but, it's been a while and I'm curious if there's been any changes to peoples thoughts on rhato regarding the current status of Willis Todd?

Cause, honestly I'm still not convinced that he has actually appeared in the present day.

We've had two characters with claims to be Jasons father yet neither make total sense and they kinda contradict each other.

In the flashback we see Willis was strapped to that machine (the one used in the experiment) with two other people (me thinks that was Solitary and James) and I reckon to some extent they all merged identities or at least memories, and to some extent even *physicality. (*It's comics)

I'm theorizing Artemis killed the OG Willis, she mentions in issue #25 to Jason, 'Someday you'll understand how much I owe you. The mistakes I made. How much you suffered because of me.'

James has the Batarang scar, sure, but no one outside of his own perception knows him as Willis Todd, where as Solitary is the one that confronts Ma Gunn who outright calls him Willis, to which I should note that he is surprised by and questions how she could have known, kinda adding to my theory that he doesn't look like Willis all that much since he isn't the OG, but like James he also has Willis's memories/identity and they both at least believe themselves with enough conviction to be Willis Todd, father of Jason Todd. Also I find it quite strange that Jason himself doesn't recognize his father's face in either of these men, again, just another point to my theory.

Thoughts? Alternate theories?

[QUOTE=RedBird;4618235]I know this kinda random but, it's been a while and I'm curious if there's been any changes to peoples thoughts on rhato regarding the current status of Willis Todd?

Cause, honestly I'm still not convinced that he has actually appeared in the present day.

We've had two characters with claims to be Jasons father yet neither make total sense and they kinda contradict each other.

In the flashback we see Willis was strapped to that machine (the one used in the experiment) with two other people (me thinks that was Solitary and James) and I reckon to some extent they all merged identities or at least memories, and to some extent even *physicality. (*It's comics)

I'm theorizing Artemis killed the OG Willis, she mentions in issue #25 to Jason, 'Someday you'll understand how much I owe you. The mistakes I made. How much you suffered because of me.'

James has the Batarang scar, sure, but no one outside of his own perception knows him as Willis Todd, where as Solitary is the one that confronts Ma Gunn who outright calls him Willis, to which I should note that he is surprised by and questions how she could have known, kinda adding to my theory that he doesn't look like Willis all that much since he isn't the OG, but like James he also has Willis's memories/identity and they both at least believe themselves with enough conviction to be Willis Todd, father of Jason Todd. Also I find it quite strange that Jason himself doesn't recognize his father's face in either of these men, again, just another point to my theory.

Thoughts? Alternate theories?[/QUOTE]

Editorial screwed with the storytelling would be my guess.

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4618238]Editorial screwed with the storytelling would be my guess.[/QUOTE]

LOL okay you win XD

[QUOTE=RedBird;4618235]In the flashback we see Willis was strapped to that machine (the one used in the experiment) with two other people (me thinks that was Solitary and James) and I reckon to some extent they all merged identities or at least memories, and to some extent even *physicality. (*It's comics[/QUOTE]
It's probably gonna end up being this because somewhere along the way:
[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4618238]Editorial screwed with the storytelling would be my guess.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what the endgame of the Willis Todd Saga will be. It's possible that there currently isn't one. All I do know is that Jason either needs to go all in on the "found family" thing or at least lean on the important women in his life some more because his luck with father figures/male role models is absolute shit.

[QUOTE=RedBird;4618235]I know this kinda random but, it's been a while and I'm curious if there's been any changes to peoples thoughts on rhato regarding the current status of Willis Todd?

Cause, honestly I'm still not convinced that he has actually appeared in the present day.

We've had two characters with claims to be Jasons father yet neither make total sense and they kinda contradict each other.

In the flashback we see Willis was strapped to that machine (the one used in the experiment) with two other people (me thinks that was Solitary and James) and I reckon to some extent they all merged identities or at least memories, and to some extent even *physicality. (*It's comics)

I'm theorizing Artemis killed the OG Willis, she mentions in issue #25 to Jason, 'Someday you'll understand how much I owe you. The mistakes I made. How much you suffered because of me.'

James has the Batarang scar, sure, but no one outside of his own perception knows him as Willis Todd, where as Solitary is the one that confronts Ma Gunn who outright calls him Willis, to which I should note that he is surprised by and questions how she could have known, kinda adding to my theory that he doesn't look like Willis all that much since he isn't the OG, but like James he also has Willis's memories/identity and they both at least believe themselves with enough conviction to be Willis Todd, father of Jason Todd. Also I find it quite strange that Jason himself doesn't recognize his father's face in either of these men, again, just another point to my theory.

Thoughts? Alternate theories?[/QUOTE]

I like yours.
For me, the weirdest part is that Jason definitely didn't thought any of them both was Willis, despite the clues us readers have to support both of them. I mean: at this point at least (it doesn't really matter what the original plan was at this point), we know that Ma could tell that, whoever she met, he was Willis; and that Willis doesn't think he's going to be recognised by the people who knew him. Unlike what it seemed with Solitary in Hierve el Agua.

Then, we know that James has his scar, or something that could be a scar (but could be a tatoo, too) and he's kind of devoted to Jason; but then again, Jason doesn't recognize him, and it doesn't look like James is hoping or wary of him doing at all. he doesn't seem to have powers, but where did he find his Wingman suit? Could be that he has the same set of powers, or a similar one.

And then there's the guy who visits Ma, that at the time was drawn kind of like Solitary, but not exactly the same because that was, as far as I recall, the only time he was drawn by Soy, and so could be easily retconned as not sharing the same looks (being two different characters). Ma seems to have no doubt it's him. It this one was actually Solitary and Ma was fooled, then Jason has to have some proof that his father was dead or wasn't him—that we're not aware of— to dismiss the possibility so easily.

And Artemis seems to feel guilty about it. So one would think that she killed the man she was meant to, regardless of if it was Jason's dad or not.

I guess it could be that Jason knows something we know, that Ma was fooled and that Solitary was the one who visited her, too.

[QUOTE=RedBird;4617989]You mean his 2008 graphic novel titled 'Joker' yeah? I've had that one in my comixology 'to buy' pile since forever, would you recommend it?[/QUOTE]

If you haven't burned out from the Joker yet, then yes, is a pretty good read.

[QUOTE=RedBird;4617865]It's another twisted Joker story, but there's almost a weird, dare I say, masochistic element to Joker in the story? One that may border a little too much into uncomfortable territory for some?
spoilers but
[spoil]Joker drags this arkham patient, Jeremy around, dresses them both up as Batman and Robin (Joker as Bats, the guy Jeremy as Robin) whilst proclaiming that he is making things 'kinkier', then when the Robin guy finds that Joker has his mother tied up, threatening her, he starts choking the Joker, whereupon the Joker takes off the Batman mask he was wearing, placing it on the would be Robins face to emulate Batman choking him and gasps, 'harder' to the guy, which freaks the Robin guy out and then the pages Dark posted which show Joker beating the Robin guy half to death are what proceed.
He basically constructs a scenario to fulfill some kind of fantasy of Batman killing/choking him.[/spoil]
Also, sorry for getting off topic there.[/QUOTE]

Joker is that fangirl/boy who follow celebrity on instagram/twitter and comment "choke me"

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4617585]Catherine and Joseph, iirc.
EDIT: for what is worth, I don't think anyone who is 12 or 14 would be that underweight unless he was malnourished for years and years.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and he can throw punches and calls him a boob

I haven't followed the current events so I'm gonna continue my line of flashback questioning.
Okay so... how long was Jason with Ma Gunn? Both in Post Crisis and Rebirth?

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4618390]Joker is that fangirl/boy who follow celebrity on instagram/twitter and comment "choke me"



Yeah and he can throw punches and calls him a boob

I haven't followed the current events so I'm gonna continue my line of flashback questioning.
Okay so... how long was Jason with Ma Gunn? Both in Post Crisis and Rebirth?[/QUOTE]

I went back and read to be sure.
Post-Crisis origin, he was with her one night and one day. In Rebirth, I think it's implied by the letters that he was there a few months at least.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618413]I went back and read to be sure.
Post-Crisis origin, he was with her one night and one day. In Rebirth, I think it's implied by the letters that he was there a few months at least.[/QUOTE]

That's a really long time. Guess Ma Gunn wasn't as obvious in Rebirth?

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4618460]That's a really long time. Guess Ma Gunn wasn't as obvious in Rebirth?[/QUOTE]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ could be. It doesn't look like Jason went to Batman spilling the beans, more like he helped him because the other kids were going to die or be maimed.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618413]I went back and read to be sure.
Post-Crisis origin, he was with her one night and one day. In Rebirth, I think it's implied by the letters that he was there a few months at least.[/QUOTE]

Hmm but doesn't Willis's relation to Ma Gunn kinda negate that time frame though? She claimed to have kept parents letters from the kids sure, but Jasons a special case. Where else would Willis send letters but to Ma Gunn, regardless of whether or not Jason was living there at her school?

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4618382]If you haven't burned out from the Joker yet, then yes, is a pretty good read.[/QUOTE]

Good to know, thanks for the rec :)

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618309]
And then there's the guy who visits Ma, that at the time was drawn kind of like Solitary, but not exactly the same because that was, as far as I recall, the only time he was drawn by Soy, and so could be easily retconned as not sharing the same looks (being two different characters). Ma seems to have no doubt it's him. It this one was actually Solitary and Ma was fooled, then Jason has to have some proof that his father was dead or wasn't him—that we're not aware of— to dismiss the possibility so easily.
[/QUOTE]

Really? I thought it was pretty clear that it was Solitary, same suit with three faces in motion.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/fbDHbWe.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=RedBird;4618495]Hmm but doesn't Willis's relation to Ma Gunn kinda negate that time frame though? She claimed to have kept parents letters from the kids sure, but Jasons a special case. Where else would Willis send letters but to Ma Gunn, regardless of whether or not Jason was living there at her school?[/QUOTE]

Well, there is a flashback in the first issue that implies that Jason was there long enough for think of the place as a sort of "home", even if he was there for a short time.

I'm guessing that Willis wasn't aware of Catherine dying untill he was informed of the housing with Ma. Jason wasn't aware of their shared blood (apparently. We really never get to know what he thinks. He's an unreliable narrator because he definitely hides information besides other things), so it may be that Willis wasn't either. I'm going to guess, again, that Willis was certified dead while Jason was still with her.

I need to read the issue with the letters again. Maybe there are some other bits of info there.

[QUOTE=RedBird;4618502]Really? I thought it was pretty clear that it was Solitary, same suit with three faces in motion.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/fbDHbWe.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

I know, but, you know, technically... Could be explained by the art being diferent itself, and them having lookalike set of powers.

It's pushing it quite a bit, but...

Did New 52 Willis die? I think I remember Jason mentioned that Willis died in prison, and the one they fought for in Death of The Family is a body double.

The Rebirth Willis is a different character than New 52, right, not just physically different. He takes Jason to the Circus, I can't see New 52 Willis doing that.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4618548]Did New 52 Willis die? I think I remember Jason mentioned that Willis died in prison, and the one they fought for in Death of The Family is a body double.

The Rebirth Willis is a different character than New 52, right, not just physically different. He takes Jason to the Circus, I can't see New 52 Willis doing that.[/QUOTE]

Mmmmm... I don't know.

One thing doesn't negate or anulate the other. One can be a very awful parent and still care at times or have small good moments and gestures for your kids. Or even care and love your kids but still be awful for them, toxic, even destroy them, unfortunately.

I mean, most of the stuff from new 52 carries on to Rebirth, and his father doesn't seem to have changed a lot (the story with the Joker is retconned, probably. And how Jason was given birth).

I don't know. Maybe others know better.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4618575]Mmmmm... I don't know.

One thing doesn't negate or anulate the other. One can be a very awful parent and still care at times or have small good moments and gestures for your kids. Or even care and love your kids but still be awful for them, toxic, even destroy them, unfortunately.

I mean, most of the stuff from new 52 carries on to Rebirth, and his father doesn't seem to have changed a lot (the story with the Joker is retconned, probably. And how Jason was given birth).

I don't know. Maybe others know better.[/QUOTE]


Nah that all sounds that about it, all through out New52 Jason [I]believed[/I] that his father died in prison, it's just that in Rebirth we find out that he was instead recruited to some kind of shady experimental lab (which probably then claimed Willis had died in prison to cover up the shady project).

Also I caught this whilst going back and forth between Rebirth and Post Crisis intro today


[img]https://i.imgur.com/vxj9g9d.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/zAbXzLs.jpg[/img]

Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth issue #1


[img]https://i.imgur.com/xaYL9s7.jpg[/img]

Batman issue #409

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4618548]Did New 52 Willis die? I think I remember Jason mentioned that Willis died in prison, and the one they fought for in Death of The Family is a body double.

The Rebirth Willis is a different character than New 52, right, not just physically different. He takes Jason to the Circus, I can't see New 52 Willis doing that.[/QUOTE]

I don't know why you'd think that. The simple fact that the batarang shaped scar is a plot point is proof enough that N52 Willis and Rebirth are one and the same. the only thing is happening is Lobdell expanding his characterization.

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4619057]I don't know why you'd think that. The simple fact that the batarang shaped scar is a plot point is proof enough that N52 Willis and Rebirth are one and the same. the only thing is happening is Lobdell expanding his characterization.[/QUOTE]

Well, first of all, they're physically completely different including in flashback, and during the New 52 back story, I don't remember he did anything good to Jason.

When it's shown at the end of mob boss Jason arc, I just thought it's funny that Willis has a batman tattoo, I thought he's showing his support for Jason that way. I didn't think that it's supposed to be the same tattoo he got in the zero issue, because by that point, looking at how he looks and act I already consider him a different person.

Artists have never been consistent when drawing Jason's parents, Catherine looks different on pretty much every appearance with the only consistent element being her red hair. Now, issue zero didn't show Willis doing anything good but it never showed him doing anything bad either, the worst thing that it showed was arguing with Catherine. And it did make a point of showing that Willis was proud of Jason, something that has been a constant for him through his appearances.

And no, is not a tattoo, is a scar.

DC Universe has put another poll asking if Jason lives or Dies, seemingly related to Titans' cliffhanger.

[url]https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll-should-titans-jason-todd-live-or-die/[/url]

As always, the poll is US only, but so far Lives is winning.

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4619586]Artists have never been consistent when drawing Jason's parents, Catherine looks different on pretty much every appearance with the [B]only consistent element being her red hair.[/B][/QUOTE]

Heck even that wasn't consistent....

[img]https://i.imgur.com/xoS37P6.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/3YiHd2d.jpg[/img]

New52 Red Hood and the Outlaws #25




The only thing that has changed for Willis was that he assisted Catherine in birthing Jason in their bat tub as opposed to the hospital birth in issue #0.

All in all I agree, these new elements of Willis, such as him taking Jason to the circus and having some desire to provide an income are additions to his character rather than a retcon. Lobdell still displayed him as an abusive father/man regardless of any 'good intentions' and I don't think these actions negate one another.

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4619627]DC Universe has put another poll asking if Jason lives or Dies, seemingly related to Titans' cliffhanger.

[url]https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll-should-titans-jason-todd-live-or-die/[/url]

As always, the poll is US only, but so far Lives is winning.[/QUOTE]

I cannot vote, so, I'm happy that people doesn't want to kill him, again ^______^.

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4619627]DC Universe has put another poll asking if Jason lives or Dies, seemingly related to Titans' cliffhanger.

[url]https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll-should-titans-jason-todd-live-or-die/[/url]

As always, the poll is US only, but so far Lives is winning.[/QUOTE]

Again? Jeez Louise

Thanks for the update though, I can't access the site myself.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4619653]I cannot vote, so, I'm happy that people doesn't want to kill him, again ^______^.[/QUOTE]

That is nice, I mean, I'm sure it's not helped by the people who also want 'Red Hood' to show up in Titans and are happy to off Robin early to get there (it's the most frequent comments I see surrounding Jasons character). What happened to anticipation here folks? Ya gotta build up relationships before ya break em down XD.

Regardless though I don't know why people (who want that) are so convinced that Titans will even have a 'Red Hood' arc if Jason dies. This is Titans, not Batman, there's like several other characters with their own story lines here to adapt.

[QUOTE=RedBird;4619649]New52 Red Hood and the Outlaws #25[/QUOTE]

In my defense, I completely wiped out Tynion's run from my memory.

It’s pretty close at the moment but lives is still beating dies by 200ish votes

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4619667]In my defense, I completely wiped out Tynion's run from my memory.[/QUOTE]

That's fair :p

No judgement, it was more in support of the argument that the visual/artistic depiction of Willis and Catherine between new52 and rebirth was not an intentional differentiation to separate continuity, just different artists not paying attention.

This has actually been up like a week. The fact that it took anyone this long to notice says something about DCU :p

Other than the All-Blades and his smartass-ery, has Jason shown any other meta abilities?

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4619812]Other than the All-Blades and his smartass-ery, has Jason shown any other meta abilities?[/QUOTE]

Being really, really, really hard to kill counts? Because we've already speculated about that one, even if it's just probably to be expected that he will survive anything without a reason behind because... narrative reasons.

More from [URL="https://www.instagram.com/da.mess.74/"]Messina's Instagram[/URL]

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That one with Biz & Artemis looks great. I saw that floating around awhile ago but couldn’t find a source so didn’t know if it was legit.

[URL="https://www.instagram.com/p/B3Y3IrfFNd0/"]voidmash[/URL]

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[URL="https://twitter.com/BigBadToyStore/status/1181936924140785665"]BigBadToyStore[/URL] (artwork by Mohammad Hague)

[I]In Stock - #DCComics Q-Master #Batman Family BBTS Shared Exclusive Artist's Signature Edition Diorama[/I]

[IMG]https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2019/07/9b913220-3e63-497e-bd92-6c453381c09c.jpg[/IMG]

Apparently, there's another poll in the official Twitter account: [url]https://twitter.com/TheDCUniverse/status/1182355213933432832[/url]

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4619812]Other than the All-Blades and his smartass-ery, has Jason shown any other meta abilities?[/QUOTE]He could do some mystical punch to depower members of the Untitled.

Given the circumstances of the particular incident, I feel like everything immediately after Jason waking up in his coffin should fall into the “basically meta” category.