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[B]tfw you're basically invulnerable to pretty much everything but your resident bat has to keep throwing themselves in danger for you anyways
[/B]
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[B]Robins[/B]
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There’s a seemingly random reference to RH:O in today’s issue of Catwoman involving Penguin getting some kind of Green Gem/Relic thing from Selina (with * that says catch in Penguin RH:O #32). I doubt anything will come out of it but it seemed random that I figure it’s worth mentioning on the odd chance something does.
[QUOTE=Sergard;4299826][URL="https://twitter.com/Flaffizz/status/1115751416201482240"]Flaffizz[/URL]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3vx_YaU4AAqVJL.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Ha, that's so cute!
[QUOTE=dietrich;4297050]
What is with so many creators hating Robin so much? Just last year at con a bunch of batman writers were making fun of the character being easily disposable fodder.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't know people like Robin until I saw the fandom post Hush. Since I was a kid no one I know like Robin. Everyone wants to be Batman. Robin is either a joke or annoyance.
The first time I like Robin was in a short story where he showcases his intelligence, and later being badass and intelligent once I actually read comics that are not silver age.
I want to say these creators are adults or older men who can't relate with a kid being badass, but as I said before, no one I know like Robin and that was when we were kids. Heck, I didn't like Robin. All of us wanted to be Batman, the cool one, not Robin, the stupid one. The image came from Batman 66 of course. Even BTAS didn't erase that image. Then, of course, Schumacher's version didn't help.
I think Tim of TNBA was the first time Robin didn't feel... insignificant... to me, but by that time we kinda already stopped playing Batman. So Tim's role didn't even count.
I guess that image of Robin being a kid or just younger, dumber than Batman, or annoying is just that strong.
So if that's my impression of Robin, and most creators are older than me, then they have an even stronger image of Robin 66. Regardless of what comic and The New Teen Titans show.
Actually, even in his college age, Dick is still kidnapped, and so was the younger Jason of the Bronze Age. Whether it's child endangerment or they just like single playboy billionaire fantasy without the burden of a child, I feel like that first or longest image of Robin leaves such a lasting impression.
Kinda like how there are still people who prefer Harley to be the dumb sidekick of Joker.
I don't know if I answered your question, I kinda went off on my own there XD
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4301145]I didn't know people like Robin until I saw the fandom post Hush. Since I was a kid no one I know like Robin. Everyone wants to be Batman. Robin is either a joke or annoyance.
The first time I like Robin was in a short story where he showcases his intelligence, and later being badass and intelligent once I actually read comics that are not silver age.
I want to say these creators are adults or older men who can't relate with a kid being badass, but as I said before, no one I know like Robin and that was when we were kids. Heck, I didn't like Robin. All of us wanted to be Batman, the cool one, not Robin, the stupid one. The image came from Batman 66 of course. Even BTAS didn't erase that image. Then, of course, Schumacher's version didn't help.
I think Tim of TNBA was the first time Robin didn't feel... insignificant... to me, but by that time we kinda already stopped playing Batman. So Tim's role didn't even count.
I guess that image of Robin being a kid or just younger, dumber than Batman, or annoying is just that strong.
So if that's my impression of Robin, and most creators are older than me, then they have an even stronger image of Robin 66. Regardless of what comic and The New Teen Titans show.
Actually, even in his college age, Dick is still kidnapped, and so was the younger Jason of the Bronze Age. Whether it's child endangerment or they just like single playboy billionaire fantasy without the burden of a child, I feel like that first or longest image of Robin leaves such a lasting impression.
Kinda like how there are still people who prefer Harley to be the dumb sidekick of Joker.
I don't know if I answered your question, I kinda went off on my own there XD[/QUOTE]
You are not wrong. Robin used to be a total damsel in distress. being dressed in undies or tights didn't help matters. Son of Batman was my fist time seeing a cool Robin. One you could take seriously. However I didn't know the source material. Now having read the comics Robin is a character I respect more.
However a writer and a fan approach the character from different angles. I can see why a fan might view Robin as lame but creators can make Robin what ever they want.
Robin was meant to be a stand in. A power fantasy/self insert for fans maybe that's why creators have/had such disdain for him self inserts/audience standin characters are not amongst the lamest there are and don't allow for much writer expression. But still.
Likely why a lot of current writers enjoy Damian's Robin because he isn't an audience stand in. But still I think that Robin is a solid character and even creators who don't share that view shouldn't mock a big IP like Robin so casually
Year of the Villain themed variant cover for issue 36
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SGIrpaj.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4301343]Year of the Villain themed variant cover for issue 36
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SGIrpaj.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Very Nice.
[SIZE=1]10 characters[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4301343]Year of the Villain themed variant cover for issue 36
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SGIrpaj.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
As always, Yasmine Putri's art is perfection. I especially love the lighting.
O_O This is gorgeous! Miss Putri really knocked it out of the park with this one!
Does she just do covers? I once asked that question about Adam Hughes and got told, "Why should he grind out a monthly book when he gets paid more just for doing covers?"
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4301343]Year of the Villain themed variant cover for issue 36
[img]https://i.imgur.com/SGIrpaj.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Beautiful! I appreciate the torn hood so we can see some hair. :o
[QUOTE=G-Potion;4302247]Beautiful! I appreciate the torn hood so we can see some hair. :o[/QUOTE]
Right? For some reaaon, that got my attention too. Really beautiful cover.
Select July Titles to Feature Unique “Portrait” Variant Covers of Characters Receiving “The Offer” from Lex Luthor
So I guess Jason will be a part of the YOTV thing in some capacity, even if it’s just an interaction with Luther.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4302603]Select July Titles to Feature Unique “Portrait” Variant Covers of Characters Receiving “The Offer” from Lex Luthor
So I guess Jason will be a part of the YOTV thing in some capacity, even if it’s just an interaction with Luther.[/QUOTE]
Source of this?
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4302765]Source of this?[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/04/11/dc’s-year-of-the-villain-1-keeps-the-heat-on-this-summer[/url]
One-Shot Spotlights the DCU’s Most Notorious Evildoers, Sets the Stage for Upcoming Blockbuster Stories in
JUSTICE LEAGUE, EVENT LEVIATHAN and BATMAN
Select July Titles to Feature Unique “Portrait” Variant Covers of
Characters Receiving “The Offer” from Lex Luthor
Ah, I see it now. Thanks.
Uh... Uhm...
I don't want Jason in that Leviatan event. I really don't. I hope it's just a "he was there for a panel and half" thing. Not only because the idea doesn't make me excited: it will break the storyflow we're having right now and I dislike when events just mess with a story. I dislike events in general (I don't buy them, and usually dont't read them either), but, well, I guess I'm in the minority (because they keep doing events and events and more events. So that means that people buy them).
I hope it's not something important.
The 4 phases of YOTV seem more or less directly connected to what Snyder’s building towards in Justice League. It’s unclear how it’ll impact any ongoing beyond JL or if there will be any tie-ins at all.
For all we know, it could be nothing more than Luthor appearing at the end of RH:O #36 to make Jason an offer, Jason rejects it and it ends there.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4302824]The 4 phases of YOTV seem more or less directly connected to what Snyder’s building towards in Justice League. It’s unclear how it’ll impact any ongoing beyond JL or if there will be any tie-ins at all.
For all we know, it could be nothing more than Luthor appearing at the end of RH:O #36 to make Jason an offer, Jason rejects it and it ends there.[/QUOTE]
I'm REALLY hoping so. But Jason was grouped in with other criminals in that line-up. And for some reason, DC has been giving Bendis free reign to do whatever he wants since coming in.
[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4302856]I'm REALLY hoping so. But Jason was grouped in with other criminals in that line-up. And for some reason, DC has been giving Bendis free reign to do whatever he wants since coming in.[/QUOTE]
Lois, Babs & Selina are on the list too (according to the variants) so he’s not the only good person on that list.
Plus even if he accepts Luthor’s offer, Jason could just use it to get what he wants before bailing half way in or giving information to the league. Jason saying yes doesn’t automatically mean he’s going back to the dark side.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4302777][url]https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/04/11/dc’s-year-of-the-villain-1-keeps-the-heat-on-this-summer[/url]
One-Shot Spotlights the DCU’s Most Notorious Evildoers, Sets the Stage for Upcoming Blockbuster Stories in
JUSTICE LEAGUE, EVENT LEVIATHAN and BATMAN
Select July Titles to Feature Unique “Portrait” Variant Covers of
Characters Receiving “The Offer” from Lex Luthor[/QUOTE]
Why are all those portrait variant covers so f*cking beautiful and intense so that I can't stop looking at them? I'm not rich enough to afford them all.
I'm definitely digging those portraits more than the Detective Comics #1000 variants.
If Luthor offers Jason to bring Artemis and Bizarro back I hope Jason accepts. It's time for their return.
And if Jason and Slade finally team up I'll be the happiest person on the planet.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4302863]Lois, Babs & Selina are on the list too (according to the variants) so he’s not the only good person on that list.
Plus even if he accepts Luthor’s offer, Jason could just use it to get what he wants before bailing half way in or giving information to the league. Jason saying yes doesn’t automatically mean he’s going back to the dark side.[/QUOTE]
If it were most other authors, I'd be inclined to agree. But with Bendis, a guy infamous for ignoring pre-established continuity, and awful at getting certain characters right (he still hasn't gotten Lois down yet, for example), I'm a bit on edge.
[QUOTE=Sergard;4302917]Why are all those portrait variant covers so f*cking beautiful and intense so that I can't stop looking at them? I'm not rich enough to afford them all.
I'm definitely digging those portraits more than the Detective Comics #1000 variants.
If Luthor offers Jason to bring Artemis and Bizarro back I hope Jason accepts. It's time for their return.
And if Jason and Slade finally team up I'll be the happiest person on the planet.[/QUOTE]
I'm kind of over Deathstroke. He needs to be a better father to his own kids before he can ever think about lecturing someone else's kids.
If Luthor does offer to bring Artemis and Biz back, but demands Jason work with him in the meantime, I could see Jason do so, with intent to double cross him. But Luthor would be prepared for it, and have his own plan(s) in play before Jason could begin planning.
Well, there's that rumor we've been hearing since last year and Leviathan it is a guy in both a red hood and helmet...
[QUOTE=dietrich;4301278]You are not wrong. Robin used to be a total damsel in distress. being dressed in undies or tights didn't help matters. Son of Batman was my fist time seeing a cool Robin. One you could take seriously. However I didn't know the source material. Now having read the comics Robin is a character I respect more.
However a writer and a fan approach the character from different angles. I can see why a fan might view Robin as lame but creators can make Robin what ever they want.
Robin was meant to be a stand in. A power fantasy/self insert for fans maybe that's why creators have/had such disdain for him self inserts/audience standin characters are not amongst the lamest there are and don't allow for much writer expression. But still.
Likely why a lot of current writers enjoy Damian's Robin because he isn't an audience stand in. But still I think that Robin is a solid character and even creators who don't share that view shouldn't mock a big IP like Robin so casually[/QUOTE]
Gosh, I wish writers... heck, everyone at DC can be as professional as they think they are because one of the reasons for my rage quit is the clear bias they have. Writers for certain characters, higher-ups for certain writers. Like I know this company is half built on fanboyism but come on. Your job is to create fantasy heroes, but it sounds like you don't like kids.
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4303017]Well, there's that rumor we've been hearing since last year and Leviathan it is a guy in both a red hood and helmet...[/QUOTE]
at this point in time i really hope its him because,he's stagnant and i see he's going nowhere. i mean if what going in action comics right now is because of him i say good for him. the offer might be in july but we all know red hood book is in its on little world and day to day until lobdell is force to write for current times and events
I don't think Jason is anywhere near stagnant, at least in term of character development, especially if you compare him to other Bats. But if you meant stagnant as in his place in the DCU, then maybe, but changing him into a bad guy for the sake of an event sounds more like a move to sabotage rather than elevate his character.
[QUOTE=redmax99;4303183]at this point in time i really hope its him because he's stagnant and i see he's going nowhere[/QUOTE]
No, oh. Everything but that. See, I know how a bad move can turn how audience see a certain character forever, and I think this could be a very dangerous move that could make the audience see Jason as an irredeemable villain for years to come. I don't like the idea of taking the risk. Besides...
He's going somewhere now. The previous arc was a bit messy, true: because, I suspect, it had to suffer through a sudden change in editorial plans because the new events and the changes in teams and staff. But now? For me, again, it's pretty clear that Lobdell is building Jason to break and fall into more than dubious ways. All the solicits we have seem point to that, and this month's issue (and to certain degree, the previous one and the previous art too) seem to point to Jason going to wild and loose, angry, even hostile. I feel some conflict in there and I feel like it's going to blow up in a few issues. Or, well, that's what I get. From time to time, Jason is going to mess up, and this feels like he's in that period of the cycle.
On another note, seeing as they've cast Iain Glen as Bruce Wayne for Titans (great choice, btw), I was wondering if the reason why Jason has a more present role in the second season is because he's going to be Dick's sidekick instead of Bruce's. Glen is turning 58 yo soon (if I'm not mistaken), so it could be the case, that we're getting an old Bruce who's about to retire from Batman.
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4303211]No, oh. Everything but that. See, I know how a bad move can turn how audience see a certain character forever, and I think this could be a very dangerous move that could make the audience see Jason as an irredeemable villain for years to come. I don't like the idea of taking the risk. Besides...
that's not true Jason been painted as irredeemable before and yet he still got a book out of being painted as the scum of the earth. Morrison wrote Jason so terrible that it took a great writer to write him back to status quo i mean winnick came in before the new 52, an in 3 issue of batman and robin jason was back to being the anti-hero and anti-villian everyone knew and loved. if scott lobdell is half a strong writer he is suppose to be he can turn jason around in 6 issues and not drag on,or down a story, with whatever silly story he wants to tell until he sure he has jason back to status quo.
[QUOTE=G-Potion;4303202]I don't think Jason is anywhere near stagnant, at least in term of character development, especially if you compare him to other Bats. But if you meant stagnant as in his place in the DCU, then maybe, but changing him into a bad guy for the sake of an event sounds more like a move to sabotage rather than elevate his character.[/QUOTE]
jason always been a bad guy , he's kind hearted ,loving to family and friends and people who are nice to him. but the guy confirm kill count is 83 people and thats just from a mass poisoning in black gate they didn't even count the suicides that took place or murder on murder that happen. jason had a support system was the only reason he wasn't acting out. he mellowed out because tim and roy believed later starfire and than the rest of the batfamily. now his support system is gone what does jason has to lose being his truth-self some one thats a go getter for things he want .
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4302824]The 4 phases of YOTV seem more or less directly connected to what Snyder’s building towards in Justice League. It’s unclear how it’ll impact any ongoing beyond JL or if there will be any tie-ins at all.
For all we know, it could be nothing more than Luthor appearing at the end of RH:O #36 to make Jason an offer, Jason rejects it and it ends there.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't even have to mean that. A variant cover more often than not doesn't have much to do with what's going on in the issue.
Rocafort isn't working in the annual
RED HOOD: OUTLAW ANNUAL #3
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by ADAM POLLINA
cover by DEXTER SOY
Missing since the fateful events of issue #25, the story of what happened to Bizarro and Artemis after they were sucked through the quantum doorway can finally be told! Trapped in a strange reality where everyone with metahuman abilities has become normal and ordinary humans now possess powers, up is down, left is right and only a pair of Outlaws can save the day in a world gone mad. Meet strange new foes, and even stranger new allies. Can the Outlaws fix this broken world and still make it back to our world and their mission alongside the Red Hood?
ON SALE 07.31.19
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
[img]https://i.imgur.com/t9SJ0KF.jpg[/img]
And Jason is getting new teammates
RED HOOD: OUTLAW #36
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by PETE WOODS
cover by DAN PANOSIAN
variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
There’s no way to plan for every contingency...even for a son of the Bat like Jason Todd. His goal was to take down the Penguin and assume his role as the prince of Gotham, but the best laid plans go awry when Oswald Cobblepot gets the last laugh—and the last bullet! And not even the Red Hood and his posse can stop him. (How could they with the Iceberg Lounge under siege and Bunker, Wingman and the Sisters Su too busy to help Jason deal with a Penguin ascendant?) Don’t miss the startling conclusion to “Prince of Gotham!”
What can Lex Luthor offer former sidekick Jason Todd? Sidekicks…broken, battered and catastrophically dangerous sidekicks. The Teen Titans they’re not!
ON SALE 07.10.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xKpI73b.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=redmax99;4303394]
[B]that's not true Jason been painted as irredeemable before and yet he still got a book out of being painted as the scum of the earth[/B]. Morrison wrote Jason so terrible that it took a great writer to write him back to status quo i mean winnick came in before the new 52, an in 3 issue of batman and robin jason was back to being the anti-hero and anti-villian everyone knew and loved. if scott lobdell is half a strong writer he is suppose to be he can turn jason around in 6 issues and not drag on,or down a story, with whatever silly story he wants to tell until he sure he has jason back to status quo.[/QUOTE]
That happened, yeah. Was when he wasn't as established as he's now, and in a book alone, not in an event (he was a grey character outside there). Also, Morrison himself wrote him out of his villainous path in the end in Batman Inc (after Winnick short help before the reboot, painting him not so, er, crazy and ridiculous), and had a big, big reboot to help him resert Jason's status and story.
As I said, I'll rather not take that path now. It's not worth the risk, imho. Events tend to have a bigger impact in my experience, just because they have more readers and that makes it last longer. Mmm, I acknowledge that Jason's own nature is to be forever on the verge of both sides, but I also think he will always end swing to the side of good most of the times, with all his messes and mistakes and meltdowns. He's more of a [B]good[/B] guy than a bad, in a world who isn't like ours and doesn't work as well as ours. He's just very flawed, has a lot of emotional issues, has had problems in the past (trauma and a bad upbringing can do that to you) and is willed to do ethically wrong things. But he's heroic in his core.
In any case, we will have the 3 jokers mini, that I hope will play Jason as an anti-hero and not a villain. I trust them to at least that (to be honest, I'm hopeful with that book now, after what we've been told).
[QUOTE=okiedokiewo;4303428]It doesn't even have to mean that. A variant cover more often than not doesn't have much to do with what's going on in the issue.[/QUOTE]
Normally that is true but not in this case. The variant covers are directly related to whose involved in phase 1 of YOTV.
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4303436]Rocafort isn't working in the annual
RED HOOD: OUTLAW ANNUAL #3
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by ADAM POLLINA
cover by DEXTER SOY
Missing since the fateful events of issue #25, the story of what happened to Bizarro and Artemis after they were sucked through the quantum doorway can finally be told! Trapped in a strange reality where everyone with metahuman abilities has become normal and ordinary humans now possess powers, up is down, left is right and only a pair of Outlaws can save the day in a world gone mad. Meet strange new foes, and even stranger new allies. Can the Outlaws fix this broken world and still make it back to our world and their mission alongside the Red Hood?
ON SALE 07.31.19
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
[img]https://i.imgur.com/t9SJ0KF.jpg[/img]
And Jason is getting new teammates
RED HOOD: OUTLAW #36
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by PETE WOODS
cover by DAN PANOSIAN
variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
There’s no way to plan for every contingency...even for a son of the Bat like Jason Todd. His goal was to take down the Penguin and assume his role as the prince of Gotham, but the best laid plans go awry when Oswald Cobblepot gets the last laugh—and the last bullet! And not even the Red Hood and his posse can stop him. (How could they with the Iceberg Lounge under siege and Bunker, Wingman and the Sisters Su too busy to help Jason deal with a Penguin ascendant?) Don’t miss the startling conclusion to “Prince of Gotham!”
What can Lex Luthor offer former sidekick Jason Todd? Sidekicks…broken, battered and catastrophically dangerous sidekicks. The Teen Titans they’re not!
ON SALE 07.10.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xKpI73b.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Looks like the annual will focus heavily on Biz and Artemis's time in … wherever they are (which I kinda suspected it would). Wonder if Jason will appear at all or if the focus will be on them.
I'll be honest, I don't like the idea of Jason taking on sidekicks (or atleast young ones) but I'll wait to see who the team is and what happens before judging it. The characters could be introduced here but not appear again until Snyder uses them in his event thing. Maybe Wingman's connected to Lex and he's the one who sent WM to find Jason last arc.
[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4303436]Rocafort isn't working in the annual
RED HOOD: OUTLAW ANNUAL #3
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by ADAM POLLINA
cover by DEXTER SOY
Missing since the fateful events of issue #25, the story of what happened to Bizarro and Artemis after they were sucked through the quantum doorway can finally be told! Trapped in a strange reality where everyone with metahuman abilities has become normal and ordinary humans now possess powers, up is down, left is right and only a pair of Outlaws can save the day in a world gone mad. Meet strange new foes, and even stranger new allies. Can the Outlaws fix this broken world and still make it back to our world and their mission alongside the Red Hood?
ON SALE 07.31.19
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
[img]https://i.imgur.com/t9SJ0KF.jpg[/img]
And Jason is getting new teammates
RED HOOD: OUTLAW #36
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by PETE WOODS
cover by DAN PANOSIAN
variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
There’s no way to plan for every contingency...even for a son of the Bat like Jason Todd. His goal was to take down the Penguin and assume his role as the prince of Gotham, but the best laid plans go awry when Oswald Cobblepot gets the last laugh—and the last bullet! And not even the Red Hood and his posse can stop him. (How could they with the Iceberg Lounge under siege and Bunker, Wingman and the Sisters Su too busy to help Jason deal with a Penguin ascendant?) Don’t miss the startling conclusion to “Prince of Gotham!”
What can Lex Luthor offer former sidekick Jason Todd? Sidekicks…broken, battered and catastrophically dangerous sidekicks. The Teen Titans they’re not!
ON SALE 07.10.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xKpI73b.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Awesome. The anual is perfect for my always-delayed birthday gift.
I'm guessing the sidekicks aren't going to stay in the bock, if we get Art and Biz back, maybe? Or maybe Art and Biz are those sidekicks? (but they're not: that's rude, Lex!—If he refers to them them that way)
EVENT LEVIATHAN #2
written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
art and cover by ALEX MALEEV
variant cover by JASON FABOK
“The Detectives”! EVENT LEVIATHAN, the new miniseries by the award-winning team of writer Brian Michael Bendis and artist Alex Maleev, continues! As the mystery of Leviathan continues to rock the very foundations of the DC Universe, the world’s greatest detectives gather for the first time anywhere to solve the mystery before it’s too late! Lois Lane leads Batman, Green Arrow, Plastic Man, Manhunter, the Question and a couple of genuine guest sleuths in the search for who Leviathan is and how their plans have already unfolded. This issue also guest-stars [B]Red Hood[/B], Batgirl and more!
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VDBix0o.jpg[/img]
Heh, I wasn't expecting this.