-
[QUOTE=ZombieHavoc;4324788]I don't think anyone here is some establishment donor. I think most people here would rather Biden not have enetered the race.
The problem is that the only one who is going to change the system is Trump, which he's already doing. If we don't all vote in the general for whoever wins in the primary, we concede this system and country to Trump. Contrary to what some super punk rock Bernie people say, getting Trump out is the most important thing.
If you think Trump is better than Biden or Booker, then I don't imagine you care much about Bernie's politics either. It's just super punk rock bro.[/QUOTE]
If you buy into these smears against Bernie's character, you buy into the narrative created by the donors.
Who says I think Trump is better than Biden or Booker? Don't put words in my mouth. You want to characterize me without knowing anything about me. This what I am talking about when I mention bad faith arguments.
Also what you think of Donnie Deutsch saying this about Bernie and Trump:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvq3erqnqko&t=130s[/url]
Is he one of the ''good Democrats''? The fact that he says he couldn't support Bernie against Trump because of ''socialism'' a good thing? Party unity goes out the window for corporatists like Deutsch, when they may have to pay higher tax rates, it really comes off, for these corporate Democrats, party unity is a one-way street.
You want to win a battle, I want to win a war. Getting Trump out of office should only be the first step if you do not take steps to deal with the factors that led to
The third way neoliberal ideology the Clintons spread-headed in the 90s and Obama continued and people like Biden or Booker will continue, is part of the problem, it has hollowed out the middle class and allows demagogues like Trump to flourish, if Booker or Biden get in and continue that ideology, we see an another Trump in short order. If you have another status quo President, the system will continue to get worse and we will see Trumpism grow. Trump is a symptom if you do not cure the disease, nothing will get better in the long run. Getting rid of Trump is a good short term goal, but changing the system to defeat Trumpism, should be the long term goal.
-
[QUOTE=The Overlord;4324828]Getting rid of Trump is a good short term goal, but changing the system to defeat Trumpism, should be the long term goal.[/QUOTE]
Ha good luck with all that.
So punk rock.
Also, I've never mentioned anything about these smears against Bernie's character. Don't put words in my mouth--bad faith arguments and all. I like the dude--I just don't think he should be president over some of the other candidates--though I will of course vote for him if he wins the nom. Because getting Trump out is the most important thing at the moment.
-
Yes. Getting Trump out of the White House is the most important thing. We can have a civil debate over whom the best Democratic candidate is, but let's not, as President Obama said, turn this into a circular firing squad.
-
[QUOTE=Malvolio;4324858]Yes. Getting Trump out of the White House is the most important thing. We can have a civil debate over whom the best Democratic candidate is, but let's not, as President Obama said, turn this into a circular firing squad.[/QUOTE]
Too late dude.
-
[QUOTE=ZombieHavoc;4324844]Ha good luck with all that.
So punk rock.[/QUOTE]
Then fine, enjoy getting someone as bad or worse than Trump in 4 to 8 years.
Why bother changing the system? It's not like people like MLK or Harvey Milk or a bunch of other people changed the system for the better.
If people had this attitude in the 30s, we would not have the New Deal and if people had this attitude in the 60s, we wouldn't have had civil rights. How you are supposed to beat Trump when want to be so passive and cede a bunch of ground to him?
[QUOTE=Malvolio;4324858]Yes. Getting Trump out of the White House is the most important thing. We can have a civil debate over whom the best Democratic candidate is, but let's not, as President Obama said, turn this into a circular firing squad.[/QUOTE]
But the debate on how best to defeat Trump and Trumpism is key to the future of the Democratic party and the future as a whole. The fight between leftism and neoliberalism is real and I think a truly left-wing approach is the only way to truly defeat Trump and Trumpism, I think going with neoliberalist approach again, is repeating the same mistake from 2016, it means we have learned nothing from the mistakes of the past.
I think just trying to reset things back to the Obama era would be a mistake, Trump has laid bare the failings of the system, we can't go back to the past with the knowledge we have now, we have to fix these problems to build a better future, not ignore them as we did in the past. I think young left-wing Democrats want to move society forward, rather returning to Obama era status quo.
-
[QUOTE=The Overlord;4324861]Then fine, enjoy getting someone as bad or worse than Trump in 4 to 8 years.
Why bother changing the system? It's not like people like MLK or Harvey Milk or a bunch of other people changed the system for the better.
If people had this attitude in the 30s, we would not have the New Deal and if people had this attitude in the 60s, we wouldn't have had civil rights. How you are supposed to beat Trump when want to be so passive and cede a bunch of ground to him?[/QUOTE]
I'm not good with another 4 years of Trump. If that sits well with you, so be it. I can't do anything about that.
I can't make anyone vote.
All I can do is vote, which I plan to. If you wanna sit it out because Obummer, it's your right.
It's why there are primaries. Back your candidate in the primaries, vote for them, and then don't hold your vote hostage if they don't make it to the end. We get Trump when people do that.
-
[QUOTE=The Overlord;4324828] Getting rid of Trump is a good short term goal, but changing the system to defeat Trumpism, should be the long term goal.[/QUOTE]
I for one am more than willing to settle for the short term goal of getting rid of Trump as that will curtail the GOP's blatantly obvious long game of stacking the courts with right wing ideologues. At the end of the day, if Sanders is the last man standing after the Democratic primary, I'll vote for him in the general election, gladly, I have zero problem with that. Gotta walk before you can run, and priority one is voting Trump out, to that end, I got no time for purity tests, plain and simple, I don't give a flying **** who gets the job done.
-
[QUOTE=WestPhillyPunisher;4324882]I for one am more than willing to settle for the short term goal of getting rid of Trump as that will curtail the GOP's blatantly obvious long game of stacking the courts with right wing ideologues. At the end of the day, if Sanders is the last man standing after the Democratic primary, I'll vote for him in the general election, gladly, I have zero problem with that. Gotta walk before you can run, and priority one is voting Trump out, plain and simple, and, to that end, I don't give a **** who gets the job done.[/QUOTE]
Yeah exactly---that Trump has already placed two Supreme Court judges is enough to make me vote for any dem, period, in 2020. The thought of him getting another--which if he gets another 4 years, it's almost a guarantee--I mean, what war are you going to win when the large majority of the SCOTUS are Trump people. You aren't winning any war there. I'll take status quo over Trump's agenda ruling the country for another 30ish years.
-
[QUOTE=The Overlord;4324674]
Well, they are and you are one brought Biden into this.
[/QUOTE]
No, I think I did not make Biden run. He ran because he knows he's the most popular politician in America.
-
[QUOTE=ZombieHavoc;4324891]Yeah exactly---that Trump has already placed two Supreme Court judges is enough to make me vote for any dem, period, in 2020. [B]The thought of him getting another--which if he gets another 4 years, it's almost a guarantee[/B]--I mean, what war are you going to win when the large majority of the SCOTUS are Trump people. You aren't winning any war there. I'll take status quo over Trump's agenda ruling the country for another 30ish years.[/QUOTE]
Trump probably prays at night before bed for RBG to kick the bucket so he can fill her seat. Depraved as he is, I honestly wouldn't put that past him.
-
[QUOTE=WestPhillyPunisher;4324909]Trump probably prays at night before bed[/QUOTE]
To himself? Because I can't see him supplicating himself to anyone, even a literal God.
-
[QUOTE=Tuck;4324916]To himself? Because I can't see him supplicating himself to anyone, even a literal God.[/QUOTE]
In Trump's defense though: Doesn't the existence of somebody like Trump, and the carefree life he's lived, pretty much conclusively prove that there is no God?
-
[URL="https://twitter.com/jjouvenal/status/1121492961089544193?s=19"]This is so fucking wrong.[/URL]
[QUOTE]BREAKING: Federal judge agrees to release Coast Guard Lt. Christopher Hasson, who was accused of plotting terror attack by federal prosecutors. Judge says govt. has not charged him with terrorism and murder and doesn’t plan to, so no grounds to hold.
[/QUOTE]
-
[QUOTE=ZombieHavoc;4324868]I'm not good with another 4 years of Trump. If that sits well with you, so be it. I can't do anything about that.
I can't make anyone vote.
All I can do is vote, which I plan to. If you wanna sit it out because Obummer, it's your right.
It's why there are primaries. Back your candidate in the primaries, vote for them, and then don't hold your vote hostage if they don't make it to the end. We get Trump when people do that.[/QUOTE]
Voting is not all you can do, you should vote, but anyone can do more then that if you try. The Civil Rights movement in the 60s wasn't just people going to vote and that's it, it was a social organization, organize boycotts, civil disobedience, same thing with the anti-war movement from that time. People have gotten lazy now, they vote once and a while and then just leave things to politicians.
The right-wing base is not passive in that way, they primary people they do not like, they went to townhalls to fight Obamacare (with lies, obviously), they organized, they fought for governorships they fought for every seat of power they could get. The Democrats lost a lot of governmental seats in the Obama era, the Democrats got complacent and the GOP got organized, now we turn the tables or we can remain complacent.
[QUOTE=WestPhillyPunisher;4324882]I for one am more than willing to settle for the short term goal of getting rid of Trump as that will curtail the GOP's blatantly obvious long game of stacking the courts with right wing ideologues. At the end of the day, if Sanders is the last man standing after the Democratic primary, I'll vote for him in the general election, gladly, I have zero problem with that. Gotta walk before you can run, and priority one is voting Trump out, to that end, I got no time for purity tests, plain and simple, I don't give a flying **** who gets the job done.[/QUOTE]
But here's a good question, why did Trumpism grow like parasite during the Obama era? Trump is proof the system itself is sick and to me, Trump is not the only sign of this sickness.
Mitch McConnell is just as bad as Trump and he was there before Trump. This stuff with Merrick Garland proves that the GOP is the real enemy, Trump is just a pawn in this game, they have an invested interest in making sure the system to fit their agenda, Trump is a natural outgrowth of their ideology, he is a feature, not a bug. The GOP has been winning and setting the terms of the debate for so, Obama's attempts at compromise were treated by weakness by the GOP, they treated it with scorn. Its time to stop playing nice with our enemies and that's what someone like Biden would do it, roll over and cave in. We need someone who fights on all fronts.
Look if Biden or Booker get chosen, yes, I would suggest voting for them over Trump, but defeating Trumpism is not going to accomplish in one election cycle, Trumpism will be the GOP's ideology for the foreseeable future.
A weak approach will not defeat people like Trump or McConnell.
-
[QUOTE=InformationGeek;4323850][URL="https://twitter.com/MikeDorning/status/1121520990092238849?s=19"]Trade Wars, the easiest to win.[/URL][/QUOTE]
People should recall that both Donald Sr. and Ivanka still have extensive business interests in China.
[QUOTE=InformationGeek;4324942][URL="https://twitter.com/jjouvenal/status/1121492961089544193?s=19"]This is so fucking wrong.[/URL][/QUOTE]
I encountered some disagreement about this online last night. Apparently it's legal and totally ok to plan a murder spree of high-ranking politicians right up to the point you actually pull the trigger.