-
[QUOTE=Lee Stone;4381523]Maybe when he moves to Image like everyone else normally do, he could redo it with original characters.
'Heroes in Crisis done right'...[/QUOTE]
I think you need a better writer who actually research’s, understands mental health, and, if he still wants the mystery aspect, knows how to write a mystery for it to be done right. Sooooooo yeah, not really a story King could ever write well.
-
[QUOTE=Lee Stone;4381395]I think King should consider fleshing out his original proposal into a short story (minus the changes forced on him by Didio to turn it into an 'event') and posting it online so people can see what his actual intention was.[/QUOTE]
He has extensively talked about how the story developed. The idea that this started as a story about trauma and became a gross massacre after editorial interference is not only unfounded, but also completely backwards. HiC was always an event first, and the mass killing was baked into the original pitch. I'm not sure why this notion is so prevalent, but I see it often circulating without foundation and it seems to have been repeated enough that it is commonly held "knowledge."
King has been up front about the series of events that led up to HiC:
1.) Didio comes to King and asks him for an event. He declines.
2.) After some persuasion, King agrees to write the event under a few conditions.
3.) It will be a "lower stakes" stakes story in the sense that no universe threatening event would happen.
4.) His initial pitch was an allegorical superhero "mass shooting." This was the original pitch and baked into the story from the get-go
5.) Knowing how controversial a story like this would be, King said that he would only write it if he had zero responsibility in selecting which characters were involved. He did not want to chose who died, who were the suspects, or who was the murderer.
6.) Didio supplied him with the kill lists, Booster and Harley, and presumably Wally West.
This is the series of events he has described in several interviews and podcasts. The only thing we may be uncertain about it when the Sanctuary came into play. He started referencing it in his Batman run during Everybody Loves Ivy- three or so months prior to the announcement of HiC. But behind the scenes had the meeting already taken place? Was Wally's fate already sealed?
Say what you will about this event, but it is dominating the front page here for the past two days and has driven hundreds of pages of discussion whereas something like the Last Knight or the Batman Who Laughs are scarcely discussed.
-
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4381920]
Say what you will about this event, but it is dominating the front page here for the past two days and has driven hundreds of pages of discussion whereas something like the Last Knight or the Batman Who Laughs are scarcely discussed.[/QUOTE]
Well, most entries online are usually about faulty products and complaints, it‘s rare that you have multiple page threads full of appraisals.
-
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4381920]Say what you will about this event, but it is dominating the front page here for the past two days and has driven hundreds of pages of discussion whereas something like the Last Knight or the Batman Who Laughs are scarcely discussed.[/QUOTE]
Lots of discussion, yes. The VAST majority is negative though. Trauma was always the story and King said he was going to visit mental health clinics and do research so he got it right but then he stated that after going to one he stopped because he didn’t think it fit his story. He didn’t think that learning from mental health professionals would be beneficial to his story about trauma. That’s how we got this story and that’s one of the reasons why it’s so bad. King doesn’t care about getting it right, just telling his story.
-
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4381920]
Say what you will about this event, but it is dominating the front page here for the past two days and has driven hundreds of pages of discussion whereas something like the Last Knight or the Batman Who Laughs are scarcely discussed.[/QUOTE]
Well, once you've said that both Batman WHo Laughs and Last Knight on Earth are excellent, there really isn't much to add. Heroes in Crisis is so bad so whole thesis can probably be written just out of its material. And if you add the Booster Gold arc in Batman which was a prelude to this, well... That's a lot more thing to write about.
-
[QUOTE=Korath;4382026]Well, once you've said that both Batman WHo Laughs and Last Knight on Earth are excellent, there really isn't much to add. Heroes in Crisis is so bad so whole thesis can probably be written just out of its material. And if you add the Booster Gold arc in Batman which was a prelude to this, well... That's a lot more thing to write about.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's human nature to focus on the negative. It's much easier to complain about what we're upset about than to praise the stuff we love.
-
I think the art was amazing though. Except for one of the issues. I can’t remember which one though. Whoever wasn’t Clay Mann.
-
Where’s Batman Jones? He and I almost NEVER agree on anything but I like reading his views on these comics.
-
[QUOTE=Talon1load;4382040]I think the art was amazing though. Except for one of the issues. I can’t remember which one though. Whoever wasn’t Clay Mann.[/QUOTE]
That‘s why I looked at it. Clay Mann is the better Jim Lee. Fantastic artist.
At the end of the day it‘s all subjective, for me, like the Snyder/Capullo team, an unfortunate pairing of a superstar artist, with, what I often perceive, a hit-or-miss writer.
For example King‘s Sheriff of Babylon is great, as Snyder‘s Wytches, but both their Batmam runs can‘t convince me, same as HiC.
Though I‘ve learnt that obviously editorial influence played a large role in the development.
-
Yo.
This series was banging.
It's a shame that there isn't more like it.
-
[QUOTE=dimo1;4382102]That‘s why I looked at it. Clay Mann is the better Jim Lee. Fantastic artist.
At the end of the day it‘s all subjective, for me, like the Snyder/Capullo team, an unfortunate pairing of a superstar artist, with, what I often perceive, a hit-or-miss writer.
For example King‘s Sheriff of Babylon is great, as Snyder‘s Wytches, but both their Batmam runs can‘t convince me, same as HiC.
Though I‘ve learnt that obviously editorial influence played a large role in the development.[/QUOTE]
Better than Jim Lee? Let’s not go crazy now. Lol
-
[QUOTE=_Feely_;4382441]Yo.
This series was banging.
It's a shame that there isn't more like it.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you enjoyed it, even if it didn't end up working for me. What did you like about it?
-
In the spirit of "semi-appreciation," I will say that in a meta-commentary, having Wally be damaged and essentially traumatized as a character to reflect how he's been treated by DC as a character was an interesting idea rather than simply have him back and "happy-happy, yay he's back and everything's back to normal."
-
Loved the beginning. Loved the middle. Loved the end.
Took me a couple reads to understand how the time travel was working, but what we end up with is a kinda of Sisyphian tragedy. Wally was prepared to exist in a kind of endless atonement for his manslaughter (not murder!), an endless cycle of suicide all to preserve his attempt to maintain the Puddler leak so others would know they are not alone. But as it happens with cycles of trauma, depression, etc. One day- like a bolt from the sky- or in this case a Beetle Ship- the cycle breaks, loved ones reach out, your call for help into the darkness is answered.... and you find a way to move on.
One of the masterstrokes of this series is how all the main characters serve as reflections of each other (a metaphor made literal in #4 with the funhouse mirrors). For example: How does Harley (previously a mass murdering villain, now beloved antihero) reflect Wally (previously a Boy Scout symbol of heroism and hope, now traumatized killer)? The foundation of the superhero genre is the battle of good vs. evil, but this series asks: Who is deserving of redemption? Or the title of #6: Who is saved?
The series is begins and ends with a fight between Booster and Harley in #1 and #7. The irony is that they are so convinced of each other guilt, that the other is the stereotypical "bad guy", that they don't realize they have literally been manipulated to fight each other. This question of "Does violence really solve anything?" is something that is carried over in Tom King's Batman run. I think this is where King's first hand experiences of real world violence in the CIA are the most clear. The PTSD of violence in HiC, the fact that Bane (Bat's biggest brawler) is leading Batman down this downward spiral of literally punching all of his loved ones in the face driving him into pure isolation-- this is all a big deconstruction of the relationship between justice and violence. It's brilliant to use the superhero genre to expose violence in this way.
-
[QUOTE=upupandagay;4384025]Loved the beginning. Loved the middle. Loved the end.
Took me a couple reads to understand how the time travel was working, but what we end up with is a kinda of Sisyphian tragedy. Wally was prepared to exist in a kind of endless atonement for his manslaughter (not murder!), an endless cycle of suicide all to preserve his attempt to maintain the Puddler leak so others would know they are not alone. But as it happens with cycles of trauma, depression, etc. One day- like a bolt from the sky- or in this case a Beetle Ship- the cycle breaks, loved ones reach out, your call for help into the darkness is answered.... and you find a way to move on.
One of the masterstrokes of this series is how all the main characters serve as reflections of each other (a metaphor made literal in #4 with the funhouse mirrors). For example: How does Harley (previously a mass murdering villain, now beloved antihero) reflect Wally (previously a Boy Scout symbol of heroism and hope, now traumatized killer)? The foundation of the superhero genre is the battle of good vs. evil, but this series asks: Who is deserving of redemption? Or the title of #6: Who is saved?
The series is begins and ends with a fight between Booster and Harley in #1 and #7. The irony is that they are so convinced of each other guilt, that the other is the stereotypical "bad guy", that they don't realize they have literally been manipulated to fight each other. This question of "Does violence really solve anything?" is something that is carried over in Tom King's Batman run. I think this is where King's first hand experiences of real world violence in the CIA are the most clear. The PTSD of violence in HiC, the fact that Bane (Bat's biggest brawler) is leading Batman down this downward spiral of literally punching all of his loved ones in the face driving him into pure isolation-- this is all a big deconstruction of the relationship between justice and violence. It's brilliant to use the superhero genre to expose violence in this way.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't consider Harley a beloved anti hero. Her heel-face turn feels really forced.