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A big part of the reason as to why Cyclops became so popular after AVX was that the writers tried to push the omg he's so evil narrative, which wasn't what most of us read from what they actually wrote. They were SO SHOCKED that X-Men fans were on the side of the X-Men and not the Avengers. But Cap was originally supposed to be in the wrong in Civil War, so these guys obviously struggle with writing any sort of coherent story.
JDW still doesn't get it, and continuing to use characters as his voice piece, like Dani here, is going to achieve the same result. It's weird as fuck tbh. You brought Cyclops and Wolverine back to rehash the same shitty story that happened before they died? Why??
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454262]Once again, for the sake of trying to steer things back on topic, anyone else thinking it's kinda funny that Cyke gets portrayed as the uncaring, sociopathic jerk while Logan gets to skip funerals and go on killing sprees?[/QUOTE]
But he was getting revenge for her out of looooooooooooooove! He couldn't wait!
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[QUOTE=phoenixzero23;4454259]I honestly thought the most hated X-men were Scott, Wolverine and Emma.
I can't see a thread that eventually doesn't derail into hating those characters.
Maybe getting into the spotlight is a double edged sword?[/QUOTE]
Nah, that's just an urban myth relentlessly pushed by the "I want my B-Z lister to matter!" crowd.
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[QUOTE=Punch Dimension.;4454263]A big part of the reason as to why Cyclops became so popular after AVX was that the writers tried to push the omg he's so evil narrative, which wasn't what most of us read from what they actually wrote. They were SO SHOCKED that X-Men fans were on the side of the X-Men and not the Avengers.
JDW still doesn't get it, and continuing to use characters as his voice piece, like Dani here, is going to achieve the same result. It's weird as fuck tbh. You brought Cyclops and Wolverine back to rehash the same shitty story that happened before they died? Why??[/QUOTE]
JDW was in the Cyclops thread and said this whole Scott situation wasn't going be to tackled again and then he made a Twitter poll on a related topic. I guess post Hickman it's over, but he clearly had one last issue to try and force us into thinking Cyclops is evil before they do what Marvel does best—ignore everything that they screwed up. But Summers' fangirls don't forget. Some people move on. But not us. Not us.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454244]The X-Men are going into limbo, man. Totally! Face it! Despite being forced to the side for years due to the Inhuman push until recently with Disney acquiring 20th Century Fox, which was the underlying reason why the X-Men and F4 were being stowed away.
It's literally the complete opposite. The F4 and X-Men are being pushed so hard not only the original medium, but everywhere else this past year.[/QUOTE]
Right. It's literally the exact opposite of whats going down, no offense to that poster but they haven't a clue.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454267]JDW was in the Cyclops thread and said this whole Scott situation wasn't going be to tackled again and then he made a Twitter poll on a related topic. I guess post Hickman it's over, but he clearly had one last issue to try and force us into thinking Cyclops is evil before they do what Marvel does best—ignore everything that they screwed up. But Summer fangirls don't forget. Some people move on. But not us. Not us.[/QUOTE]
Really? I'd love to try and break it down for him, because i think he genuinely can't understand why everyone was team cyclops, and for the editor of the xbooks, that's worrying. Jason Aaron also came onto cbr during AVX and was super shocked how pro X-Men we were, which again, is pretty bizzare.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454267]JDW was in the Cyclops thread and said this whole Scott situation wasn't going be to tackled again and then he made a Twitter poll on a related topic. I guess post Hickman it's over, but he clearly had one last issue to try and force us into thinking Cyclops is evil before they do what Marvel does best—ignore everything that they screwed up. But Summer fangirls don't forget. Some people move on. But not us.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I dunno. I mean, would JDW show up just to drop a flat out lie that could be used against him? I'm still thinking he spoiled Xavier's involvement in some sort of "Ah ha, I dropped this mega clue, but those Cyclops fanboys/girls were so triggered they couldn't see it" kind of stunt.
Which would be way awesomer than the bizarre pettiness/cluelessness currently on display. A "Jerk move, but well played nonetheless, sir" kind of thing, I suppose.
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[QUOTE=Punch Dimension.;4454271]Really? I'd love to try and break it down for him, because i think he genuinely can't understand why everyone was team cyclops, and for the editor of the xbooks, that's worrying. Jason Aaron also came onto cbr during AVX and was super shocked how pro X-Men we were, which again, is pretty bizzare.[/QUOTE]
The consumers and the company have two fundamentally different stance on the character. Unless the X-Office is shifted to someone who is pro-Cyclops, they're never gonna keel.
[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454274]Yeah, I dunno. I mean, would JDW show up just to drop a flat out lie that could be used against him? I'm still thinking he spoiled Xavier's involvement in some sort of "Ah ha, I dropped this mega clue, but those Cyclops fanboys/girls were so triggered they couldn't see it" kind of stunt.
Which would be way awesomer than the bizarre pettiness/cluelessness currently on display. A "Jerk move, but well played nonetheless, sir" kind of thing, I suppose.[/QUOTE]
We'll see come next week!
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454279]We'll see come next week![/QUOTE]
We sure will. Truth be told, there's also the "WTF has Xavier been up to all this time?" variable that no one seems to be addressing because the threads keep getting derailed, lol.
Firstly, would anyone want to follow this guy if he just cowered in the shadows while his former students were getting manipulated/slaughtered? Secondly, would Hickman seriously hinder the launch of HoX/PoX by investing time on a Xavier/Scott reunion instead of diving right into his narrative? Thirdly, Xavier going "Woah, woah, I've been psychically hiding the thought-to-be-dead mutants and/or torturing Scott for kicks, stop whining about Nate making you not get laid, I can't do everything, sheesh." would be freakin' hilariously.
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454266]Nah, that's just an urban myth relentlessly pushed by the "I want my B-Z lister to matter!" crowd.[/QUOTE]
They want attention for those characters but don't want the problems and escrutiny that comes with popularity, they also believe it is going to last forever.
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454287]We sure will. Truth be told, there's also the "WTF has Xavier been up to all this time?" variable that no one seems to be addressing because the threads keep getting derailed, lol.
Firstly, would anyone want to follow this guy if he just cowered in the shadows while his former students were getting manipulated/slaughtered? Secondly, would Hickman seriously hinder the launch of HoX/PoX by investing time on a Xavier/Scott reunion instead of diving right into his narrative? Thirdly, Xavier going "Woah, woah, I've been psychically hiding the thought-to-be-dead mutants and/or torturing Scott for kicks, stop whining about Nate making you not get laid, I can't do everything, sheesh." would be freakin' hilariously.[/QUOTE]
I believe everything will be ignored and most reunions between characters than haven't seen each other for years are going to be rushed or off panel. It is sad but I don't think Hickman wants to waste time with that and instead he will jump straight into action.
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[QUOTE=phoenixzero23;4454311]I believe everything will be ignored and most reunions between characters than haven't seen each other for years are going to be rushed or off panel. It is sad but I don't think Hickman wants to waste time with that and instead he will jump straight into action.[/QUOTE]
That's my point exactly. Uncanny would be addressing the Scott/Xavier and Emma/everyone (lol) reunions.
In, like, ten pages. Because the rest of the issue would be devoted to getting all the cheap shots they can possibly get at Scott and Emma before Savior!Hickman arrives.
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[QUOTE=phoenixzero23;4454311]I believe everything will be ignored and most reunions between characters than haven't seen each other for years are going to be rushed or off panel. It is sad but I don't think Hickman wants to waste time with that and instead he will jump straight into action.[/QUOTE]
That's what I was thinking too. HOX / POX seems like it will have a lot going on with the status quo change. So I think any personal relationships will be glossed over until the characters land in their respective post-HOX / POX books.
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454313]That's my point exactly. Uncanny would be addressing the Scott/Xavier and Emma/everyone (lol) reunions.
In, like, ten pages. Because the rest of the issue would be devoted to getting all the cheap shots they can possibly get at Scott and Emma before Savior!Hickman arrives.[/QUOTE]
No reunions. No relationships. First page of HoX #1 better be a double-page spread of a massive explosion with Prof. X coming out of it in his wheelchair which now has rocket boosters and back pegs where Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean are all standing on.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454316]No reunions. No relationships. First page of HoX #1 better be a double-page spread of a massive explosion with Prof. X coming out of it in his wheelchair which now has rocket boosters and back pegs where Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean are all standing on.[/QUOTE]
It is weird because for example Scott and Xavier haven't seen each other for years and the last time they did was when Cyclops under the phoenix killed him, they seeing each other again should be something meaningful, something good, were they reconcile and apologize for their problems, they are after all teacher and student.
Jean, Logan and Scott even if there is no love drama are very significant for the others and haven't seen each other for a long time, all believing the other was dead. Imagine if you thought someone was dead and suddenly that person is alive, that should be huge too.
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[QUOTE=phoenixzero23;4454318]It is weird because for example Scott and Xavier haven't seen each other for years and the last time they did was when Cyclops under the phoenix killed him, they seeing each other again should be something meaingful, something good were they reconcile and apologize for their problems, they are after all teacher and student.
Jean, Logan and Scott even if there is no love drama are very significant for the others and haven't seen each other for a long time all believing the other was death. Imagine if you thought someone was dead and suddenly that person is alive, that should be huge too.[/QUOTE]
If we look at the writers and the X-Office, it's not really Hickman's fault if he skips over it all because he didn't make Marvel come up with the past 6 months of ridiculous stories. They could've just had them all together and did another story rather than splitting them all up. The reunions will probably be done in the Omega and #22, so all of it, months of emotions will be compressed into 2 issues in one Wednesday...
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I don't imagine that we will get any of these long awaited reunions on panel but instead we got Blob loves Psylcoke and other nonsense.
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[QUOTE=Punch Dimension.;4454344]I don't imagine that will get any of these long awaited reunions on panel but instead we got Blob loves Psylcoke and other nonsense.[/QUOTE]
She likes'em big, she likes'em chunky.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454346]She likes'em big, she likes'em chunky.[/QUOTE]
And they like them evil, Psychopaths are the new trend
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[QUOTE=fsger;4454350]And they like them evil, Psychopaths are the new trend[/QUOTE]
Maybe they're the best in bed.
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"Betsy, look out. I think Moto Moto likes [I]you[/I]~"
[video=youtube;bZdKVTyAgpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZdKVTyAgpY[/video]
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454287]We sure will. Truth be told, there's also the "WTF has Xavier been up to all this time?" variable that no one seems to be addressing because the threads keep getting derailed, lol.
Firstly, would anyone want to follow this guy if he just cowered in the shadows while his former students were getting manipulated/slaughtered? Secondly, would Hickman seriously hinder the launch of HoX/PoX by investing time on a Xavier/Scott reunion instead of diving right into his narrative? Thirdly, Xavier going "Woah, woah, I've been psychically hiding the thought-to-be-dead mutants and/or torturing Scott for kicks, stop whining about Nate making you not get laid, I can't do everything, sheesh." would be freakin' hilariously.[/QUOTE]
While I don't see Xavier as a sadist and disagree with your opinion, you point issues that would need to be addressed.
It would have been done if one person was in control of the whole narrative because these issues are not small details.
How can you enjoy a comics if you point all the time incoherences…
Maybe, from the moment Hickman is in charge of X-men, it will less look like a patchwork badly assembled.
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[QUOTE=Punch Dimension.;4454271]Really? I'd love to try and break it down for him, because i think he genuinely can't understand why everyone was team cyclops, and for the editor of the xbooks, that's worrying. Jason Aaron also came onto cbr during AVX and was super shocked how pro X-Men we were, which again, is pretty bizzare.[/QUOTE]
And this is why Marvel can't do hero vs hero events, because they're incapable of portraying two sides with different ideas, or nuances story- one side has to be RIGHT and GOOD, and the other has to be WRONG and EVIL.
[QUOTE=fsger;4454291]They want attention for those characters but don't want the problems and escrutiny that comes with popularity, they also believe it is going to last forever.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=Punch Dimension.;4454344]I don't imagine that we will get any of these long awaited reunions on panel but instead we got Blob loves Psylcoke and other nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget that Jean loves the man that tried to murder her son and granddaughter for 15 years.
[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454332]If we look at the writers and the X-Office, it's not really Hickman's fault if he skips over it all because he didn't make Marvel come up with the past 6 months of ridiculous stories. They could've just had them all together and did another story rather than splitting them all up. The reunions will probably be done in the Omega and #22, so all of it, months of emotions will be compressed into 2 issues in one Wednesday...[/QUOTE]
Until proven otherwise, I'll maintain my theory that this whole Age of X-man/End times in Uncanny debacle was caused mostly because Hickman didn't want Scott and Jean together (whether because he wants to put them back together himself or because he doesn't want them together at all), and the X-office panicked because their nostalgia-filled vision of the franchise just doesn't see why wouldn't Scott run back to Jean's arms as soon as he came back- never mind that not only that wouldn't be healthy (and yes, I'd say the same about Emma), but his character arc in the two most popular runs of the century was him getting over Jean and moving on. Also, Cyclops would want to use the tactical opportunity of the X-men's enemies not knowing he's alive- and decided they needed a way to keep the two of them apart for 6 months.
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SPOILERS
[url]https://twitter.com/AshcanPress/status/1149800583483842560[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/Lon_Monster/status/1149792771659591680[/url]
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[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4454214]Anyway. Oh noes. Bishop got told off twice, TWICE by teenagers! The tragedy! The pain! Someone bring the world's biggest violin, stat! Know what happens when teenagers get mad at Cyke? He gets punched across football fields. He gets shot in the face.
Just... pleaseohmygodstop, lol. It's embarrassing. Bishop wasn't possessed when he unleashed Sentinels on a school full of kids, tried to murder a child, shot Xavier in the head and then nuked Billions just so Cable and Hope would have nowhere to go to. To even suggest he didn't get off suuuper easy is laughable.
Heck, just to bring things back on topic, did any veteran X-Men give Bish the whole "You big, meanie, unfeeling jerk. We were mere tag-alongs in your Time Cop drama. They're like brothers and sisters to me, but they're just expendables to you, waaaah, I'm totally not going to run away and cry like a high school girl" treatment?[/QUOTE]
Let's switch roles, Bishop get all cyclops appearences and storylines since Whedon
Scott will be baby killer and get all Bishop appearences.
Not so good lose the spotlight right? show up on a secondary book and get limbo for 4 years.
Cyclops only get so much scrutinity because he was always the protagonist, that everyone interacts with him. Barely anyone else interacted with Bishop on his baby killer phase
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4454705]Let's switch roles, Bishop get all cyclops appearences and storylines since Whedon
Scott will be baby killer and get all Bishop appearences.
Not so good lose the spotlight right? show up on a secondary book and get limbo for 4 years.
Cyclops only get so much scrutinity because he was always the protagonist, that everyone interacts with him. Barely anyone else interacted with Bishop on his baby killer phase[/QUOTE]
The answer is easy Cyclops is more popular and sells more than Bishop. Just like Wolverine is more popular and sells more than Cyclops. Popular characters sell more and for that appear more, that's how life and business work.
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[QUOTE=fsger;4454711]The answer is easy Cyclops is more popular and sells more than Bishop. Just like Wolverine is more popular and sells more than Cyclops. Popular characters sell more and for that appear more, that's how life and business work.[/QUOTE]
That never stopped a writer putting their faves on spolitlight and then they become popular
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4454723]That never stopped a writer putting their faves on spolitlight and then they become popular[/QUOTE]
That is in fact true, the biggest example would be Emma but here is the problem, like in Emma case that was very tied to her relationship with Scott. No character should depend on a tie like that because relationships eventually break (and you know they aren't a single character)
Cyclops case is different and only Jean comes close. Cyclops was there from issue #1, readers have seen and grow up with him, for decades. that is literally imposible to do with anybody else no matter how hard Marvel pushes that character. If you think the X-men as one single and long story at least half of it is about Cyclops, with maybe only Jean coming close to the level of development, grow and protagonism. Everybody else is a secondary character.
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4454723]That never stopped a writer putting their faves on spolitlight and then they become popular[/QUOTE]
Gotta agree here. No character is born popular. So much as a writer with some good pull came in & put them front & center, spent time actually developing them, and making them popular.
Emma was good in GenX. But arguably Morrison & Whedon brought her to the forefront to basically replace Jean, and you now have numerous fans who feel Emma is one of the best X-Women and even feel she made Scott a much better character. I disagree with both of those, but doesn't change the fact she was made much more well-known & popular from Morrison onward. Personally, Morrison & Whedon made her less likable for me. lol
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[QUOTE=Silver Fang;4454738]Gotta agree here. No character is born popular. So much as a writer with some good pull came in & put them front & center, spent time actually developing them, and making them popular.
Emma was good in GenX. But arguably Morrison & Whedon brought her to the forefront to basically replace Jean, and you now have numerous fans who feel Emma is one of the best X-Women and even feel she made Scott a much better character. I disagree with both of those, but doesn't change the fact she was made much more well-known & popular from Morrison onward. Personally, Morrison & Whedon made her less likable for me. lol[/QUOTE]
That level of writing almost never happens as often in the industry today, so it's really wishful thinking. Even if Hickman puts Monet in every story, there's still a big chance she'll remain a nobody forever. Spotlights do not guarantee a character will become popular, at least not on the level as the original popular characters. This is double the truth for X-characters because there are already so many. Marvel, not just he X-Office but Marvel Entertainment, would need to push for a character to reach the next level of popularity, like Miles Morales or Kamala Khan, so the likelihood of Marvel giving everyone's favorite c-z lister X-Men that level of push is almost nonexistent.
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[QUOTE=fsger;4454734]That is in fact true, the biggest example would be Emma but here is the problem, like in Emma case that was very tied to her relationship with Scott. No character should depend on a tie like that because relationships eventually break (and you know they aren't a single character)
Cyclops case is different and only Jean comes close. Cyclops was there from issue #1, readers have seen and grow up with him, for decades. that is literally imposible to do with anybody else no matter how hard Marvel pushes that character. If you think the X-men as one single and long story at least half of it is about Cyclops, with maybe only Jean coming close to the level of development, grow and protagonism. Everybody else is a secondary character.[/QUOTE]
You are right that Emma popularity was build around Scott and without him she lost her place on x-men and had most of her stories going around Scott even if he was dead.
But I still think the spotlight the character received was mostly positive. She got to gain new fans, show up all around marvel universe.
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Even Miles and Kamala don't really sell that much. Hell, even the GotG don't sell that much now.
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[QUOTE=Omega Alpha;4454750]Even Miles and Kamala don't really sell that much. Hell, even the GotG don't sell that much now.[/QUOTE]
This. Monet isn't a "Nobody." Whether you like her character or not, she is a solid B-list character that many X-Comic fans know. And she has plenty of personality & story to move to the A-list if she could stay with 1 good writer long enough. Sadly after GenX, her longest stint was X-Factor where PAD made her a parody, dialed all her negative traits up to 11, white-washed her because of his own biases, and honestly did no real character work with her. lol
She was doing well enough with Storm's All-female team. But relaunch ended that. She was in the flagship with Bunn's Uncanny, which was selling well enough despite the limitations, but relaunch put an end to that.
Good writing & actual effort can make all the difference with characters.
One of my ex favs is Creed, and he was actually popular in the 90's up to 2002. Because he was actually treated seriously as a villain, with some exceptions. He had personality, cunning, wit, effectiveness, etc. Then Austen came along, decided he didn't want Creed to have any of that, and VERY few have made effort with him since, and as a result his popularity is pretty non-existent these days because he's misused & treated like a pussy for the better part of 16 years.
Same with Gambit, who used to be more popular than what he is now.
Mystique is the flip. She was a decent character in the 80's. When Destiny got killed off, she descended into bland villain territory, and she wasn't the biggest deal around. Once the films came along, she blew up in comics trying to cash in on her popularity and got her own 27 issue solo in 2005.
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[QUOTE=Silver Fang;4454738]Gotta agree here. No character is born popular. So much as a writer with some good pull came in & put them front & center, spent time actually developing them, and making them popular.
Emma was good in GenX. But arguably Morrison & Whedon brought her to the forefront to basically replace Jean, and you now have numerous fans who feel Emma is one of the best X-Women and even feel she made Scott a much better character. I disagree with both of those, but doesn't change the fact she was made much more well-known & popular from Morrison onward. [b]Personally, Morrison & Whedon made her less likable for me. lol[/b][/QUOTE]
same for me but it seems to worked well for everyone else.
Emma is the classic case of artificial popularity being build. Then some people talk like popularity is born, it isn't.
[QUOTE=Omega Alpha;4454444]
Don't forget that Jean loves the man that tried to murder her son and granddaughter for 15 years.
[/quote]
It's her fault she fell in love with him. But it is Scott fault he fell in love with Emma that screwed twice over Jean.
[quote]
Until proven otherwise, I'll maintain my theory that this whole Age of X-man/End times in Uncanny debacle was caused mostly because Hickman didn't want Scott and Jean together (whether because he wants to put them back together himself or because he doesn't want them together at all), and the X-office panicked because their nostalgia-filled vision of the franchise just doesn't see why wouldn't Scott run back to Jean's arms as soon as he came back- never mind that not only that wouldn't be healthy (and yes, I'd say the same about Emma), but his character arc in the two most popular runs of the century was him getting over Jean and moving on. Also, Cyclops would want to use the tactical opportunity of the X-men's enemies not knowing he's alive- and decided they needed a way to keep the two of them apart for 6 months.[/QUOTE]
They could just keep Scott hidden. Or keep them separated, Logan is back for a long time and he only briefly interacted with Jean
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454353]"Betsy, look out. I think Moto Moto likes [I]you[/I]~"
[video=youtube;bZdKVTyAgpY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZdKVTyAgpY[/video][/QUOTE]
Fred wishes he was half as manly and handsome as Moto Moto.
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Nope, sorry Jean and Scott's relationship has been little more than an after thought for 14 years where Marvel has actively avoided it at every chance. So blaming their interactions for everything makes no sense when they are few and almost not romantic. (we only had two kisses on so long and both were the last year)
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Scott is a drama king with an insane obsession to help the mutants, they would have to give a very good reason to have him hidden and not go shooting optic blasts to the first Sentinel he sees.
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[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;4454792]Fred wishes he was half as manly and handsome as Moto Moto.[/QUOTE]
Kwannon pukes in the distance.
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[QUOTE=KangMiRae;4454817]Kwannon pukes in the distance.[/QUOTE]
Kwannon is a nerd.
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4454757]
They could just keep Scott hidden. Or keep them separated, [/QUOTE]
They could, but like I said, the vision of the franchise in the X-office in the last few years is so regressive and nostalgia-influenced that the idea that Scott does not immediately runs to Jean's arms and they form the best couple evah! does not compute.