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[QUOTE=jetengine;4579728]Lol
"Johnnys intricate path of acting like a jackass, then growing up....then immediately being reset again"
I mean immaterial of whether you like or agree with it, it would certainly give Johhny more to do.[/QUOTE]
Like what?
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I'm going with no, bruv. Wake me up when something legit happens.
[QUOTE=Ptrvc;4580357]Like what?[/QUOTE]
Like help their fanfic.
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[QUOTE=Ptrvc;4580357]Like what?[/QUOTE]
Johnny is a crazy huge celebrity, loved by millions. Used to walking the street, getting high fives and picking up chicks wherever he wants (well not every women, but still), so he's like "Hey its 2020, I can come out right ? It'll be cool"
Except its not cool. He suddenly starts getting hate mail, his merch deals are slowing down, he has people giving him **** in the streets from time to time, thats just the obvious negatives. Then you get **** like his LGBT followers causing social media storms. His Gay fans now decry him as "greedy" or "gay in denial" whilst his straight fans are uneasy. Johnny is banned from entering certain nations etc
Johnny actually has to deal with more then "Got to act like an adult" he's got to deal with what its like to actually be treated like **** FOR EXISTING which due to Reed (other then briefly during Civil War) has never been too much of an issue.
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I don't see how Johnny Storm being bisexual is going to hurt anybody. In fact since I read this thread that's what I'm hoping the MCU does (instead of just getting a token black actor in that role). Maybe MU 616 Johnny isn't bi, but he can be. The problem is I don't think Marvel hires people that can write LGBTQ characters all that well.
One of the best LGBTQ characters in any comic related media was Negative Man in Doom Patrol. I wouldn't spoil it for anyone, but what that show did was absolutely make his sexuality define him as a gay man (I see a lot of people say the best way to write an LGBTQ character is not have their sexuality define them which isn't true), but give him such a relatable love story and character arc. Anyone can relate to the idea of "the one that got away" when it comes to love, gay or not.
Now I don't know if Johnny Storm is relatable or not. I mean on paper he's a pretty boy, a celebrity, a powerful superhero and a hit with women. He's a power fantasy (like many superheroes). Making Johnny bisexual (and doing it right) can make him a lot more relatable. But I don't think some people are ready for that.
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[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;4581040]I don't see how Johnny Storm being bisexual is going to hurt anybody. In fact since I read this thread that's what I'm hoping the MCU does (instead of just getting a token black actor in that role). Maybe MU 616 Johnny isn't bi, but he can be. The problem is I don't think Marvel hires people that can write LGBTQ characters all that well.
One of the best LGBTQ characters in any comic related media was Negative Man in Doom Patrol. I wouldn't spoil it for anyone, but what that show did was absolutely make his sexuality define him as a gay man (I see a lot of people say the best way to write an LGBTQ character is not have their sexuality define them which isn't true), but give him such a relatable love story and character arc. Anyone can relate to the idea of "the one that got away" when it comes to love, gay or not.
Now I don't know if Johnny Storm is relatable or not. I mean on paper he's a pretty boy, a celebrity, a powerful superhero and a hit with women. He's a power fantasy (like many superheroes). Making Johnny bisexual (and doing it right) can make him a lot more relatable. But I don't think some people are ready for that.[/QUOTE]
They only trouble with that is the case for Johnny being bi is pretty weak. Every serious relationship he had, every flirtation he had has been with women.
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4578560]Dragon Man is an android that has shown no sexual attraction and he's not a superhero, he's a part of the supporting cast. Julie Power is a member of Power Pack, she's only currently on the (already cancelled) Future Foundation. She's as related to the FF as Storm or Black Panther.
The Fantastic Four franchise only has one. Tong the Moloid who is transgender. She isn't a superhero and is part of the supporting cast, the Future Foundation. This means that she is often not used and barely gets focus or arcs. A lot of the Future Foundation is like on the "outer ring" of supporting cast importantc. Where they aren't considered as important as Frank and Val and there are too many of them to give proper stories to.[/QUOTE]
Julie Powers is a semi-regular in Runaways and she had a relationship with Karolina Dean. Do we need a quota system now in comic book cast members?
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4573455]Then there's the thing with Daken...
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/592e08c52c3539b158288c7dbe316ba7/tumblr_inline_offdnyRYJY1qk4j8v_1280.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/6Usq5NK.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/e07376ec42e277dff084d009be5fba5b/tumblr_inline_offagu7Hc71qk4j8v_1280.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That really isn't strong enough proof that Marvel editorial agreed with her implications. Her tweet would be more definitive if she said that Tom B agreed that we could do this. You'd have a hard time convincing me that TPTB at Marvel would make that drastic a change to a legacy character created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
She's only admitting to creating sexual tension. Where's the scene where they are actually admitting they've been intimate? And as others have pointed out, Dakken is a very poor candidate to argue for this change due to the nature of his powers. Any writer can easily negate her claim by bringing that up.
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Like Johnny didn’t know that Lyja was really a male Skrull the whole time...
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4579872]It says a lot that this thread gets this kind of energy while a thread saying "Sue will only be a good character if she cheats on Reed" does not.
[/QUOTE]
Well that's actually the problem I also perceive.
I don't care about Jhony or his sexuality, but Susan never had show desire to cheat on Reed, she never has been shown in another relationship, she never has been shown to actually cheat on Reed, still we can open a thread about with whom she would cheat in the [B]hypothetical[/B] case that she someday decide to try it even when we have no evidence and there is not problem.
But if we are making a question about open the sexuality of a character we get...this. People could say "I think that he is because..." or" I think that he is not because..." and is very respectable but when people really get offended for the mere suggestion, is when I can see that there is a problem there and yes is frequently related with aan homophobic attitude.
By the way yes Johnny is a kind of womanizer (one of the reasons I'm not very fond of him) but that doesn't make him automatically straight, a bisexual people is not the same that homosexual, a bisexual people can be attracted mostly for one sex (women in Jhonny case) and then once in their lives gets attracted for other without problems or try a relationship with a male as after seeing that is not working, return to pursue women, but being attracted to woman is not a countundent proof.
I don't know, don't care about what Jhonny orientation is but seeing examples of images that looked as subtext was opening the possibility so in the [B]hypothetical[/B] case that some writer would like to address the issue I would not have any problem as I don't have any problem with Deadpool.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4581213]That really isn't strong enough proof that Marvel editorial agreed with her implications. Her tweet would be more definitive if she said that Tom B agreed that we could do this. You'd have a hard time convincing me that TPTB at Marvel would make that drastic a change to a legacy character created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
She's only admitting to creating sexual tension. Where's the scene where they are actually admitting they've been intimate? And as others have pointed out, Dakken is a very poor candidate to argue for this change due to the nature of his powers. Any writer can easily negate her claim by bringing that up.[/QUOTE]
To add to that Daken is known for using his Pheromone powers to get what he wants. Whether that be attention, sex, status, or anything else. Johnny's and the FF's whole relationship with Daken could be entirely false. Based on the odd way that story in particular was written its not to far off to call shenanigans or write it off.
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[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4581657] To add to that Daken is known for using his powers Pheromone powers to get want he wants. Whether that be attention, sex, status, or anything else. Johnny's and the FF's whole relationship with Daken could be entirely false. Based on the odd way that story in particular was written its not to far off to call shenanigans or write it off. [/QUOTE]
I'd be inclined to think that, writer's wishes aside, A) they didn't bang, and B) Johnny is well aware of Daken's pheremones, and is already horny all the time anyway (so *that* certainly didn't change anything!), but is also able to boost his internal temperature well into the thousands while keeping his skin a human-normal (so the relatively fragile molecules that are pheremones would break apart and have no effect on him, but you couldn't even tell by touching his skin, or viewing him with an IR scope, since he's containing the heat entirely within himself, which is well within the scope of his powers).
I'm pretty sure the *last* thing even a ship-happy writer wants to throw in to mix is the notion that Daken basically raped Johnny (by using his powers to roofie him and dodge consent).
[QUOTE=ARkadelphia;4581373] Like Johnny didn’t know that Lyja was really a male Skrull the whole time... [/QUOTE]
Who even knows if Skrulls have genders in the same way we (generally) do, or just straight-up choose them (or get assigned them, based on status or role or whatever).
It is interesting that so many rank and file 'warrior' or worker Skrull appear as male, and the occasional females tend to be leaders like Veranke or Princess Anele, but that's not a consistent thing either.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4581178]They only trouble with that is the case for Johnny being bi is pretty weak. Every serious relationship he had, every flirtation he had has been with women.[/QUOTE]
Speaking as a bisexual person myself, that's not really how bisexuality works.
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The Daken thing is gross. Daken is gross.
I wouldn't be proud of it, and would hope it was Daken using his powers in immoral ways.
But Johnny is probably bi anyway.
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[QUOTE=ARkadelphia;4581373]Like Johnny didn’t know that Lyja was really a male Skrull the whole time...[/QUOTE]
You have any pics to prove that?
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[QUOTE=Sutekh;4581680]Who even knows if Skrulls have genders in the same way we (generally) do, or just straight-up choose them (or get assigned them, based on status or role or whatever).
It is interesting that so many rank and file 'warrior' or worker Skrull appear as male, and the occasional females tend to be leaders like Veranke or Princess Anele, but that's not a consistent thing either.[/QUOTE]
Skrulls are complicated from what I've gathered. There's some that believe they have a 'default' gender that they hatch as and they identify with it no matter the shape but there are others who see things more fluidly.
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[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;4581821]Speaking as a bisexual person myself, that's not really how bisexuality works.[/QUOTE]
I am using the parameters of a work of serialized fiction, not the RW. Johnny is a character with a long history of relationships with women.....Dorrie Evans, Crystal, Frankie Raye, Alicia, Psionics. What do you see as evidence of his being bi? Seriously, would like to know. IMO, a character that has been written with a certain proclivity shall we say for that long better have a very good reason for change. Some out of the blue random thing doesn't work from a long time reader's perspective. And do you honestly think Dakken is a good example?
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4581958]I am using the parameters of a work of serialized fiction, not the RW. Johnny is a character with a long history of relationships with women.....Dorrie Evans, Crystal, Frankie Raye, Alicia, Psionics. What do you see as evidence of his being bi? Seriously, would like to know. IMO, a character that has been written with a certain proclivity shall we say for that long better have a very good reason for change. Some out of the blue random thing doesn't work from a long time reader's perspective. And do you honestly think Dakken is a good example?[/QUOTE]
So...you just didn't read most of the thread then?
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I've made my point in this thread and I'm done.
Just here to say that Lyja is female and she also sexually assaulted Johnny and then continued to stalk and gaslight him. That is all.
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[QUOTE=scourge;4582005]So...you just didn't read most of the thread then?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have. Most of it was just off handed remarks that take panels out of context. Everyone has their own head canon, but that doesn't make it a fact.
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4582016]I've made my point in this thread and I'm done.
Just here to say that Lyja is female and she also sexually assaulted Johnny and then continued to stalk and gaslight him. That is all.[/QUOTE]
Too bad, because I wanted to ask you what you see in his friendship with Wyatt that allegedly proves your point? Or that panel with Prince Zorba? To be honest, I think there is a stronger case for Doom being at least bi-curious. He was a bit confused about Fem-Loki. And then there was the part about how Victor wanted to team up with Stark, and for his part how Stark couldn't get over how good Victor looked when he had his face restored.
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You are bi! You are bi! ........The whole Marvel Universe is bi. :D
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4582029]Too bad, because I wanted to ask you what you see in his friendship with Wyatt that allegedly proves your point? Or that panel with Prince Zorba? To be honest, I think there is a stronger case for Doom being at least bi-curious. He was a bit confused about Fem-Loki.[/QUOTE]
I will start by saying my view is an interpretation of moments that I think present Johnny as possibly not being 100% heterosexual. I can respect that people disagree and am fine with it as long as they do it respectfully. Saying things like this is just "fanfiction" or based on "slash-fiction" as way to dismiss someone's opinion is ridiculous and insulting. If we as fans truly see comics as an art form then it's open to interpretations like other forms art. Now there are limits to this because these are often clear-cut stories, but I don't think wondering whether Johnny is not 100% straight is one of those limits. This isn't aimed at you specifically, but at others who commented on this thread.
Anyway, for your question. The Prince Zorba panel was for the way it was framed with the others paired off in couples with only Johnny there with Zorba making a comment basically saying that he needs to get laid lol. It can come across as flirty and that's how I read it, but I understand those who think otherwise.
Johnny and Wyatt's interactions seemed a bit closer than friends to me at times, and especially in the current Slott run. I remember quite a few new readers wonder if they were dating, so it wasn't only me that picked up on it. I go into a little more detail in this post: [url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?4725-LGBT-Marvel-Characters-Discussion&p=4101299&viewfull=1#post4101299[/url]
I don't believe any of the panels I presented where taken out of context. That would mean that providing context would change their meaning, Most them already have all the context or providing more context would change nothing. It's more about interpretation and how you interpreted those moments. The thing with interpretation is that people will see things differently and I respect that.
On the Doom thing, it doesn't make Doom bi-curious as female Loki is viewed as female. He was attracted to Loki in that form because Loki looked like a woman. It would be different if he was attracted to male Loki.
That's pretty much it and now I'm done with this thread.
I'll leave this and people can make of it what they will:
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/a8bd9833e508b43ef47af6141c656fc2/tumblr_inline_offac3PwuB1qk4j8v_540.png[/IMG]
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The same can be said of Daken. :p. He was pulling the same **** as Lyza. No wonder he is attracted to him and forgives him.
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4582069]I will start by saying my view is an interpretation of moments that I think present Johnny as possibly not being 100% heterosexual. I can respect that people disagree and am fine with it as long as they do it respectfully. Saying things like this is just "fanfiction" or based on "slash-fiction" as way to dismiss someone's opinion is ridiculous and insulting. If we as fans truly see comics as an art form then it's open to interpretations like other forms art. Now there are limits to this because these are often clear-cut stories, but I don't think wondering whether Johnny is not 100% straight is one of those limits. This isn't aimed at you specifically, but at others who commented on this thread.
Anyway, for your question. The Prince Zorba panel was for the way it was framed with the others paired off in couples with only Johnny there with Zorba making a comment basically saying that he needs to get laid lol. It can come across as flirty and that's how I read it, but I understand those who think otherwise.
Johnny and Wyatt's interactions seemed a bit closer than friends to me at times, and especially in the current Slott run. I remember quite a few new readers wonder if they were dating, so it wasn't only me that picked up on it. I go into a little more detail in this post: [url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?4725-LGBT-Marvel-Characters-Discussion&p=4101299&viewfull=1#post4101299[/url]
I don't believe any of the panels I presented where taken out of context. That would mean that providing context would change their meaning, Most them already have all the context or providing more context would change nothing. It's more about interpretation and how you interpreted those moments. The thing with interpretation is that people will see things differently and I respect that.
On the Doom thing, it doesn't make Doom bi-curious as female Loki is viewed as female. He was attracted to Loki in that form because Loki looked like a woman. It would be different if he was attracted to male Loki.
That's pretty much it and now I'm done with this thread.
I'll leave this and people can make of it what they will:
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/a8bd9833e508b43ef47af6141c656fc2/tumblr_inline_offac3PwuB1qk4j8v_540.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Will just have to disagree on the Fem-Loki stuff. But there is more there than what you have with Wyatt IMO. The only FF (former) team member he's interested in is She Hulk.
Just a suggestion but when you post random panel, name the source. I prefer to go back to the comic myself and read it in context. Or see if it was an AU comic. I've seen people being dishonest about that. Not that I am accusing you. I always name the source of any pages I post. People were notorious about posting the panel in Byrne's run where Reed slaps Sue without putting in the panels leading up to it. That kind of stuff always annoys me.
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Unless it states it 100% on panel in an actual book where he says "I like men", then no he is not bi and all the wishfull thinking is just that. You can look back on on almost any character and pull random panels from the last 60 years that imply thing, but that does not make them facts.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4582152]Will just have to disagree on the Fem-Loki stuff. But there is more there than what you have with Wyatt IMO. The only FF (former) team member he's interested in is She Hulk.
Just a suggestion but when you post random panel, name the source. I prefer to go back to the comic myself and read it in context. Or see if it was an AU comic. I've seen people being dishonest about that. Not that I am accusing you. In the past when I wrote papers while a student, sources were always required. I always name the source of any pages I post.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Cite your sources was practically beaten into my mind back when I was at school. I just got lazy about it when it comes to forums, I'll name the comic along with the panel from now on.
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Do we really care anymore? Marvel has identified him as bisexual and the only thing we can point two are scenes and materials that, are, at best, subject to confirmation bias. Besides, even if there was a specific scene that only worked one way, that wouldn't stop future writers from locking in one or the other into place as decided then, and what we think is sure as heck not going to count.
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4582198]Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Cite your sources was practically beaten into my mind back when I was at school. I just got lazy about it when it comes to forms, I'll name the comic along with the panel from now on.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I changed the tone of my post a bit so as not to sound all professorial, which I am not.
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[QUOTE=WebLurker;4582263]Do we really care anymore? Marvel has identified him as bisexual and the only thing we can point to are scenes and materials that, are, at best, subject to confirmation bias. Besides, even if there was a specific scene that only worked one way, that wouldn't stop future writers from locking in one or the other into place as decided then, and what we think is sure as heck not going to count.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's not going to count, like everything we write in this forum ;) It doesn't count, we are just fans who speculate and it's fun. It's ok if we disagree about Johnny Storm sexuality if it's an polite and well argued manner, it will not change how future writers will perceive him. (But I really think that he is bi)
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The thing about the Doom and Lady Loki stuff is that that wasn't the genderfluid Loki we all know and love. That was Old Loki, who was a male, who was using a woman's body partially because he could use it to seduce and confuse men. It was basically a classic trap, something which today would be a rather offensive storyline but which here, ironically, helped give us our current Loki who is genderfluid.
Now, Doom didn't just go on a cute date with Lady Loki, he also had a fantasy where he took Emma Frost and Lady Loki as sex slaves for him and his BFF Namor to have their way with.
He also had a basement full of Loki clones who he was abusing and experimenting on.
We also have a panel from Magneto where Doom and Mangetonare talking and Loki is sitting back looking like Doom's bored girlfriend.
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You could just as easily argue Doom has the hots for Lady Sif, as that's who's body Loki was stealing. Doom has had no hint of attraction to Loki in any other form over the years.
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[QUOTE=Doombot;4583025]You could just as easily argue Doom has the hots for Lady Sif, as that's who's body Loki was stealing. Doom has had no hint of attraction to Loki in any other form over the years.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, which is, again, part of why Loki used that body. Sif is a beautiful woman.
However, Doom didn't know it wasn't Loki's body. He was still seemingly trying to romance Loki.
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583051]Yeah, which is, again, part of why Loki used that body. Sif is a beautiful woman.
However, Doom didn't know it wasn't Loki's body. He was still seemingly trying to romance Loki.[/QUOTE]
But would he've wanted to do it had Loki been using his own male body, not Sif's female one?
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[QUOTE=WebLurker;4583062]But would he've wanted to do it had Loki been using his own male body, not Sif's female one?[/QUOTE]
I mean, in Doom's fantasy, Emma and Loki were chained up right by each other and it was implied that Namor was going to get Emma, so the whole thing likely would have turned into some sort of foursome.
Plus, in all seriousness, is Dook reallly going to admit that he's attracted to a man ecen if he is?
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583051]Yeah, which is, again, part of why Loki used that body. Sif is a beautiful woman.
However, Doom didn't know it wasn't Loki's body. He was still seemingly trying to romance Loki.[/QUOTE]
But Loki was a beautiful woman, a goddess actually, his brain saw an extremely attractive woman, even if intellectually he knew it was Loki. It's a weird thing, body snatching and shapshifting, rules are up in the air. Like in the myths when Loki took the form of a mare and was mounted by a stallion and gave birth to Sleipnir, was he a man or a mare? Would you accuse the stallion of being into interspecies sex?
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583065]I mean, in Doom's fantasy, Emma and Loki were chained up right by each other and it was implied that Namor was going to get Emma, so the whole thing likely would have turned into some sort of foursome.
Plus, in all seriousness, is Dook reallly going to admit that he's attracted to a man ecen if he is?[/QUOTE]
I don't think Doom would admit to even being attracted to any woman you accused him of fancying, he sort of feels it's a shallow weakness. At least admitting it to anyone else. Could you imagine Reed or Namor accusing Doom of liking [I]anyone[/I]? He'd be furious.
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[QUOTE=Doombot;4583071]But Loki was a beautiful woman, a goddess actually, his brain saw an extremely attractive woman, even if intellectually he knew it was Loki. It's a weird thing, body snatching and shapshifting, rules are up in the air. Like in the myths when Loki took the form of a mare and was mounted by a stallion and gave birth to Sleipnir, was he a man or a mare? Would you accuse the stallion of being into interspecies sex?[/QUOTE]
I would say that in the myths, Loki is closer to genderfluid. We even have myths where he spends years as a woman and gives birth. We don't have confirmation that that happened in the comics, despite my creepy letters to Marvel.
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583065]I mean, in Doom's fantasy, Emma and Loki were chained up right by each other and it was implied that Namor was going to get Emma, so the whole thing likely would have turned into some sort of foursome.
Plus, in all seriousness, is Doom reallly going to admit that he's attracted to a man even if he is?[/QUOTE]
I don't know, restored face Doom and Stark were getting really popular in that gender free for all type of romantic fan fic ;) So it's not like some fans/readers didn't see something there. Although the way Bendis was writing Tony's reaction, it looked a bit one sided. He was constantly commenting on how good Victor looked. To top it off, Victor stole his new gf Amara right under his nose. That could have had a dual purpose of lording it over Tony and getting his attention at the same time.
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pnLKLJ2Tj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/LKLJ2T.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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I really don't get the concept of trying to change a characters established characteristics and predilections in order to tell the story that 'needs to be told'.
Give me a break. There was no indication that Johnny had any attraction to members of the same sex, and then one writer decides 'wouldn't this be interesting' and suddenly he's full on sleeping with men.
And in nearly 60 years of stories, you find less than a handful of examples that suggest this has always been the case.
Truthfully -- it's really up to the editor to have an understanding of each character as they've been established -- and to object to any scenarios that betray those characteristics. The fact that the whole Johnny-Daken relationship saw the light of day is just an indictment of the editorial staff that said "sure, let's run with it."