-
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578831]
The boy has just been with too many women and shown too much sexual attraction to mostly women. If there was a legit story reason for the switch I may consider it and go along with it. But after the Iceman thing and a few other characters switching sexual orientation IMO does more harm for the characters then good.
[/QUOTE]
I just remember Johnny being dumped repeatedly by women and moping about all his past failures that involved women. But if it makes a few posters here happy about him being Bi I guess the House of Retcon could work their magic and make him Bi to appease a few hundred at the most?
-
[QUOTE=starduck;4578838]Are you sure about that? DC's contuinity explodes every few years.[/QUOTE]
There is no such thing as continuity at DC that's for sure.
-
1. Representation - People treat this like it's a dirty word or that it's some goal with a magic number meaning it's already been achieved. It's none of these things. People deserve to feel represented and having a variety of of people represented leads to richer stories and different points of view. For Johnny I think him being bisexual fist well with his history and provides much needed positive representation for people who are bisexual. There is a trope of the "Depraved bisexual" and Marvel especially has their most famous bisexual characters (Mystique and Daken) apart of this trope. Having more positive bisexual heroes would be a good thing.
2. Johnny would get a different story from the usual immaturity plots. Most of Johnny's "arcs" revolve around him having to grow up and his arrested development. A coming out story would be different from that and show a different side to the character, his fears and wants. A lot of Johnny stories are often pretty shallow and this is one story that could bring some more depth to Johnny. Not that all coming out stories automatically add depth, just that if done right and with respect they can.
3. It's also brings some unique story potential when you combine it with the Fantastic Four's celebrity. It shows another angle to coming out when you add being a celebrity and social media. His family may be accepting, but what about the media and his fans? How will they react and how will he feel about that? Seeing how it effects him and what he decides to do about it. Plus bisexuality comes with it's own trials and tribulations as for many years people used to say it was fake and that bisexuals were lying and are just really gay. Or that they come across some pretty gross attitudes both in and out of the LGBT community. There's a lot you can do and see how Johnny reacts and grows from these experiences.
On the popular thing, no one knows a sure fire way to make a character more popular. If they did Marvel would have done it with all of their characters already and there would be no 'tier list'. But there would definitely be people more interested in the character and if his story may help someone out there struggling and that's always good imo, especially considering these are comics all about helping people.
-
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578831]Again...you took a few out of context scans and posted them up. [/QUOTE]
As I said before.
I. Gave. Context.
If there is any you want more on let me know.
-
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578831]The boy has just been with too many women and shown too much sexual attraction to mostly women. If there was a legit story reason for the switch I may consider it and go along with it.[/QUOTE]
I not going to argue about Johnny being bi or if he should be , but this is the laziest excuse to argue against a character not being bi.
Being bi doesn't mean that his attraction to the same sex needs to be as strong as his attraction to the opposite sex. It could be that he is a bi-sexual that is generally attracted to women, but there is still an underline attraction to men that he have never paid attention to or acted on.
In a real life situation that I've known this to have happened it took the person realizing that they where in love with someone of the same sex to even question their sexuality, by his own accounts he never considered possibility of being gay or bi.
Sexuality is complex and unlike what is stated in popular media most people don't always know their sexuality in their childhood sometime it takes life and experiences to figure it all out.
-
Still no reasons that will benefit the character any more than the path he is currently on.
I'm against just about any unnecessary dramatic change to most marvel characters. With the big two comic sales currently so close shutting down their doors completely its passed time for REAL solid story telling than another gimmick of the week change.
Just based on the passed few years making Johnny Bi would probably loose him more fans then he would ever hope to gain just due to the simple fact that it seems comic buyers are tired of the BS. Not because he is bi or any other form of LGBT.
Thats my two cents. Please continue the one sided thread built around the fact that no one can disagree and provides very little logical reasoning for the character.
-
[QUOTE=Crimz;4573455]Then there's the thing with Daken...
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/592e08c52c3539b158288c7dbe316ba7/tumblr_inline_offdnyRYJY1qk4j8v_1280.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/6Usq5NK.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/e07376ec42e277dff084d009be5fba5b/tumblr_inline_offagu7Hc71qk4j8v_1280.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4573464]that's like asking if Northstar is gay. where's the debate?[/QUOTE]
Chris Claremont worked pretty darn hard to imply that Wolfsbane and Dani Moonstar were a would-be LGBTQ couple, and then years later in the [I]New Mutants[/I] revival, Dani notes that she's not lesbian (a female barista was hitting on her). In the [I]Runaways[/I] comics, Nico was a straight character in the original run, but the revival (by a different author), wrote her as bisexual, changing the context of the original issues.
My point with those examples is that implications by earlier authors don't always pan out in the long run, so I'm careful about taking alleged subtext "as is;" if nothing else, confirmation bias can easily creep into a discussion where there's no black or white answer.
Authorial intent doesn't always pan out, so, yeah, short of something confirming it on page, it's still a debate.
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578507]This is the current running list on Wikipedia[/QUOTE]
Gabby Kinney is a LGBTQ character? Haven't read [I]any[/I]thing that suggested that (or even addressed her sexuality period*), and I do try to keep on top of this character's appearances.
*In the "Old Woman Laura" AU story arc of [I]All-New Wolverine[/I], she was mentioned to have married someone named Taylor and raised a family, but Taylor's gender was never specified (and it is a unisex name) and it was mentioned that their kids were genetically related to Gabby, at least (that she'd married a man would be the simplest way to read the data). Also, AU stories rarely have much weight with the regular continuity.
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578771]List of Gay Marvel Characters as promised[/QUOTE]
Don't recall Wolverine being LGBTQ; where was that?
-
[QUOTE=WebLurker;4579057]
Don't recall Wolverine being LGBTQ; where was that?[/QUOTE]
it was an AU Wolverine
[IMG]https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/w:1002/h:559/q:auto/http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2013/02/x2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://ugc.kn3.net/i/760x/http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bEruICqgcVc/USz1H1V2A1I/AAAAAAAAOws/kXGRf4cvPaQ/s1600/XMEN_hercule_wolverine_580.jpg[/IMG]
-
[QUOTE=starduck;4579226]it was an AU Wolverine
[IMG]https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/w:1002/h:559/q:auto/http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2013/02/x2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://ugc.kn3.net/i/760x/http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bEruICqgcVc/USz1H1V2A1I/AAAAAAAAOws/kXGRf4cvPaQ/s1600/XMEN_hercule_wolverine_580.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Daammmnnn!
On topic: Johnny is bi, I mean FF don’t have any LGBTQ+ member .... is about TIME!
-
This was being a topic so funny, why not just ignore the homophobic comments and get back to the point.
-
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4578771]List of Gay Marvel Characters as promised[/QUOTE]
That's some list... Any of them Inhumans?
-
This is such a silly topic.
Is a fictional character ‘bi’? The answer is, it all depends on what the latest writer wants them to be. For over 30 years, Johnny was purely heterosexual, but he also was falling for alien princesses.
The last 25 years, some writers have written scenes that would certainly paint the picture of Johnny being bisexual.
Then you look at latest solicit for Fantastic Four today - and it looks like he’ll be chasing after another alien woman.
So if you ask me, Johnny just likes playing the odds - any port in a Storm, if you will.
-
Two big questions here:
1) Is Johnny Storm bisexual?
2) Would you like him to be bisexual?
For 1) there have been scenes and comments from Marvel creators that allude to his lack of pure heterosexuality. Some writers have put him in situations where he's comfortable in close situations with other men. Some writers haven't put Johnny in any situation which could allude to a bisexual nature. Where his motives and actions are dictated by different writers, editors, and IP ownership a straight (pun intended) answer hasn't been made yet. Historically, they were all straight.
As for 2) some of us will have to agree to disagree. I'd like to see Johnny have an occasional attraction to a man. I think it would help him grow in dealing with a relationship and with Franklin up almost as old as Johnny was in FF1, his kid attitude needs to be passed to another character.
-
Iceman and the Human Torch would be the steamiest Marvel couple
-
[QUOTE=CaptCleghorn;4579354]Two big questions here:
1) Is Johnny Storm bisexual?
2) Would you like him to be bisexual?
For 1) there have been scenes and comments from Marvel creators that allude to his lack of pure heterosexuality. Some writers have put him in situations where he's comfortable in close situations with other men. Some writers haven't put Johnny in any situation which could allude to a bisexual nature. Where his motives and actions are dictated by different writers, editors, and IP ownership a straight (pun intended) answer hasn't been made yet. Historically, they were all straight.
As for 2) some of us will have to agree to disagree. I'd like to see Johnny have an occasional attraction to a man. I think it would help him grow in dealing with a relationship and with Franklin up almost as old as Johnny was in FF1, his kid attitude needs to be passed to another character.[/QUOTE]
1) yeah, I think he is bisexual and who cares.
2) I'm not sure. I don't like how Iceman was written and i don't know if Marvel can write a good bisexual character. I would like to see a character (bi, gay, pan etc) who would not be defined by his sexual orientation in a comics (like Midnighter in Authority). If Johnny is explicitly written as Bi, I would love to see him be the same character who, sometimes, sleep or fell in love with a man and it's not a big deal...
-
Is this a troll topic? Why is this a thing?
You know what would be cool, if comics actually had fun stories and interesting characters again, instead of obsessing over identity checklists. Would it make Johnny more interesting? Doubtful. It sure didn't for Iceman. It never did for Northstar.
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4579398]Is this a troll topic? Why is this a thing?
You know what would be cool, if comics actually had fun stories and interesting characters again, instead of obsessing over identity checklists. Would it make Johnny more interesting? Doubtful. It sure didn't for Iceman. It never did for Northstar.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you about Iceman. But for Northstar, his coming-out was the only time that I find him more interesting than his sister.
-
[QUOTE=lordozone;4579409]I agree with you about Iceman. But for Northstar, his coming-out was the only time that I find him more interesting than his sister.[/QUOTE]
But did it do anything for Northstar as a character, aside from being known as the first gay character? He remains a D-list character.
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4579410]But did it do anything for Northstar as a character, aside from being known as the first gay character? He remains a D-list character.[/QUOTE]
and he would be F-list without this story ( who was very good for it's time). In comparison to his sister, he was not as good. At least this story made him interesting, and not just a bad copy of Quicksilver.
-
Make Sue Bi and switch her affections from Namor to Namorita while we are at it. :p
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4579398]Is this a troll topic? Why is this a thing?
You know what would be cool, if comics actually had fun stories and interesting characters again, instead of obsessing over identity checklists. Would it make Johnny more interesting? Doubtful. It sure didn't for Iceman. It never did for Northstar.[/QUOTE]
Do comics not do that? God, the homophobia and “NOT MUH HEROES” is boiling off this thread.
-
[QUOTE=Tycon;4579496]Do comics not do that? God, the homophobia and “NOT MUH HEROES” is boiling off this thread.[/QUOTE]
"We just want good stories" is one of the bigger lies homophobes and comics gaters try to hide behind.
-
[QUOTE=starduck;4579226]it was an AU Wolverine[/QUOTE]
Does that "count" then? We've had examples often on of AU characters with different sexualities from the mainline ones (Ultimate Iceman and Colossus are straight and gay there, the exact opposite of in 616, for example).
-
[QUOTE=lordozone;4579394]1) yeah, I think he is bisexual and who cares.
2) I'm not sure. I don't like how Iceman was written and i don't know if Marvel can write a good bisexual character. I would like to see a character (bi, gay, pan etc) who would not be defined by his sexual orientation in a comics (like Midnighter in Authority). If Johnny is explicitly written as Bi, I would love to see him be the same character who, sometimes, sleep or fell in love with a man and it's not a big deal...[/QUOTE]
In his own universe would it be regarded as a big deal?
My own guess is that it wouldn’t be.
I can’t think of a single Marvel hero who is clearly intolerant of race or sexual orientation.
I understand (I think) the reasons for this, but in some ways it’s unrealistic (many heroes have deep flaws), and it not as if Marvel universe is portrayed as sort of place where everyone is super tolerant (e.g. look at way mutants are regarded.)
-
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4579019]Still no reasons that will benefit the character any more than the path he is currently on.
[/QUOTE]
Lol
"Johnnys intricate path of acting like a jackass, then growing up....then immediately being reset again"
I mean immaterial of whether you like or agree with it, it would certainly give Johhny more to do.
-
Doesnt he love that Skrull girl?
-
[QUOTE=scourge;4579549]"We just want good stories" is one of the bigger lies homophobes and comics gaters try to hide behind.[/QUOTE]
I kinda feel at this point that ANY opposition to changing a characters sexuality to anything non-cis is met with cries of "homophobia".
Which, was kind of a near "Immediate" response from my original post. Which was kinda shitty. Because making it "clear" while completely seems to be "homophobic" too, but people are looking
to ambiguity to prove their point.
I'm not a big fan of johnny storm, so I'm not specifically "even irked" about it..... about it but the whole question begin brought up made me wonder.
Once there's 12 screenshots out of 10,000 appearances of a character that can be taken to look like the ambiguously gay duo or something (which is kind of inevitable with all the half-dressed spandex folks in a highly visual medium).
Further... people like Daken... Starfox... Mandrill.... any telepath... purple man... people with generally "rapey" powersets that subvert a persons consent? They really shouldn't even be included.
How do the fans of THIS sort of change that leave it say, "No, really... damn, guess he's not".
I don't think they do... and really all it takes is one rogue writer with their own view of a character to change something as fundamental as their sexual identity for all time.
and no... Me saying that Stan Lee Talked about this multiple times saying "I never made any gay characters" or that "Sony made those contracts" saying Peter Parker had to be a Heterosexual man. Is NOT in anyway homophobic.
I'm giving information about the situation that you and others may or may not have... Mostly to gauge if anyone ever changes their position on things but hey... its the internet.
Also... If someone says "I'm really not a fan of race-bending characters" the response isn't supposed to be "You're a white supremacist" or whatever other "stock bigotry" insult you can come up with.
More like ... "well... why?".
I'm not a fan of it, in most cases myself and I personally still fume about white-washed Robert Da Costa.
So... yeah... from interaction with you guys I got a better understanding now at least. Thanks.
Nothing but peace on your journey.
Edit:
[QUOTE]In his own universe would it be regarded as a big deal?
My own guess is that it wouldn’t be.
[B][I]I can’t think of a single Marvel hero who is clearly intolerant of race or sexual orientation.[/I][/B]
I understand (I think) the reasons for this, but in some ways it’s unrealistic (many heroes have deep flaws), and it not as if Marvel universe is portrayed as sort of place where everyone is super tolerant (e.g. look at way mutants are regarded.)[/QUOTE]
.....I don't even think there's a villian.
Wait no there's one There's one.... The "Grand Director"
but even in that arch where he was with the watchdogs. He was brainwashed, and had like superhuman mind deterioration.
There was only one d.c. character as I recall and that Was Alan Scott, and it only came to light when Obsidian (his son) announced he was homosexual. IIRC. (could be remmebering that wrong it was forever ago)
But If I could think of one who would be...
I can't help think: Pietro Maximoff would be that guy. Maybe its cause his similarity with North-star or his rivalry with the torch. His relationship with his sister. His dad being a mutant supremacist (pre-retcon)
He just seems like the guy who hates everything. YMMV.
-
Some of you asking if this is a troll thread... It's not.
It says a lot that this thread gets this kind of energy while a thread saying "Sue will only be a good character if she cheats on Reed" does not.
[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4579758]I kinda feel at this point that ANY opposition to changing a characters sexuality to anything non-cis is met with cries of "homophobia".
Which, was kind of a near "Immediate" response from my original post. Which was kinda shitty. Because making it "clear" while completely seems to be "homophobic" too, but people are looking
to ambiguity to prove their point.
I'm not a big fan of johnny storm, so I'm not specifically "even irked" about it..... about it but the whole question begin brought up made me wonder.
Once there's 12 screenshots out of 10,000 appearances of a character that can be taken to look like the ambiguously gay duo or something (which is kind of inevitable with all the half-dressed spandex folks in a highly visual medium).
Further... people like Daken... Starfox... Mandrill.... any telepath... purple man... people with generally "rapey" powersets that subvert a persons consent? They really shouldn't even be included.
How do the fans of THIS sort of change that leave it say, "No, really... damn, guess he's not".
I don't think they do... and really all it takes is one rogue writer with their own view of a character to change something as fundamental as their sexual identity for all time.
and no... Me saying that Stan Lee Talked about this multiple times saying "I never made any gay characters" or that "Sony made those contracts" saying Peter Parker had to be a Heterosexual man. Is NOT in anyway homophobic.
I'm giving information about the situation that you and others may or may not have... Mostly to gauge if anyone ever changes their position on things but hey... its the internet.
Also... If someone says "I'm really not a fan of race-bending characters" the response isn't supposed to be "You're a white supremacist" or whatever other "stock bigotry" insult you can come up with.
More like ... "well... why?".
I'm not a fan of it, in most cases myself and I personally still fume about white-washed Robert Da Costa.
So... yeah... from interaction with you guys I got a better understanding now at least. Thanks.
Nothing but peace on your journey.
[/QUOTE]
Isn't that a two-way street though? Just look at Iceman and people who still say he is or should be straight.
-
[QUOTE=Desmark;4579465]Make Sue Bi and switch her affections from Namor to Namorita while we are at it. :p[/QUOTE]
I have always wanted to see reed remark to Sue "That Namora is attractive." :)
And please note my serious comments are pretty much all been used on this topic and I'm going for the cheap gags. :)
-
[QUOTE=MichelleDiMera;4579747]Doesnt he love that Skrull girl?[/QUOTE]
no. she stalked him. but skrulls are naturally fluid in their sexuality. she would have made a great beard.
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4579410]But did it do anything for Northstar as a character, aside from being known as the first gay character? He remains a D-list character.[/QUOTE]
that's because he's Canadian.
-
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4579981]that's because he's Canadian.[/QUOTE]
So is Wolverine.
-
[QUOTE=Tycon;4579496]Do comics not do that? God, the homophobia and “NOT MUH HEROES” is boiling off this thread.[/QUOTE]
GAWD, the HOMOPHOBIA is just BOILING! Give me a break. It took 3 replies from mine for the "it's homophobia if you don't love it" argument to rear it's head. These threads are dumpster fires.
-
-
[QUOTE=CaptCleghorn;4579873]I have always wanted to see reed remark to Sue "That Namora is attractive." :)
And please note my serious comments are pretty much all been used on this topic and I'm going for the cheap gags. :)[/QUOTE]
Man that would make Byrne happy. Lol
-
Make Sue Bi! Make Sue Bi!
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4580230]GAWD, the HOMOPHOBIA is just BOILING! Give me a break. It took 3 replies from mine for the "it's homophobia if you don't love it" argument to rear it's head. These threads are dumpster fires.[/QUOTE]
“it’s homophobia if you don’t love it” is an awfully strange way of interpreting what I was responding to. You assume that there’s this magical and unnecessary fixation on identity for apparently nooooo reason. Obviously the LGBTQ+ community, just like many marginalized communities, want representation and that isn’t mutually exclusive from wanting good stories as you separated for some reason. Also, you aren’t the only person in this thread.
[QUOTE=scourge;4579549]"We just want good stories" is one of the bigger lies homophobes and comics gaters try to hide behind.[/QUOTE]
they forgot that wanting good stories and wanting good representation aren’t contradictory
-
[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4578013]Thats kind of my point. . . if someone comes out and just says
"No. I'm not Bi. Like at all. Like Ever."
Then its phobic. *cue eyroll* but if its left to speculation you get people saying "B..b..but XyZ coment out of thousands of thought bubbles...."
So its a null state.
Schrodinger's Sexuality.
This is legit how screwed up that situation is. Check it.
People don't remember top gun, but Top Gun is ... its a homoerotic masterpiece. Its the weirdest thing. While it was the biggest blockbuster of its time...
It is in many ways. *sigh* A gay love story.
Spiderman and his amazing friends came out in 83, (I watched it); Top Gun in 86' and yes people roasted it quite a bit...
[B][I]MOSTLY[/I][/B] because of that volleyball scene but a LOT of other things to be honest.
What happened is a game of telephone leading up to
1. In top gun... Tom Cruise, "Maverick" and Val Kilmer "Iceman" are totally gay for each other.
2. Maverick and Iceman are totally gay for each other! "From top gun? Really?"
3. Maverick and Iceman are totally gay. "What? Iceman is gay? Spider-mans Amazing friends?"
4. Did you know Iceman was totally gay?
5. Oh yeah I remember that cartoon? Iceman never did date that fire girl did he?!
6. Iceman is gay.
and everone kept hearing that soo...
In the 90's Emma took over Bobbys body... made that comment.... I laughed becayse he had the wrong Iceman.
In the 2000s' Seth McFarland Made that joke... and NO ONE gobbling up pop culture today even "REMEMBER'S" top gun.
It just stuck.
Its not that I'm "phobic" or a "tryhard" I was just alive and immersed in pop-culture the whole time[/QUOTE]
Roadhouse is kinda like that too.
Hell the ONLY way Roadhouse makes sense is if the main bad guy is Patrick Swaze's, crazed, obsessive stalker.
-
[QUOTE=Doombot;4580210]So is Wolverine.[/QUOTE]
Wolverine is krakoan and proud.
-
[QUOTE=Shreene;4579285]That's some list... Any of them Inhumans?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Ren Kimura, Glorianna, Telekian, Swain, and Romeo (Iceman's first boyfriend), if counting media, Joey, the one with fire powers from AOS, which are all new inhumans. All of the former royals have children, but their society could've allowed it even though [U]one[/U] of their metaphors is why old traditions work to the detriment of people in a society sometimes.
On a side note, here's the otherside of Johnny's sexuality.
[IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/dfcae7c99c365c082e27e9c57f6cba8f/tumblr_py51ojZszM1w740fxo1_1280.jpg[/IMG]