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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583010]The thing about the Doom and Lady Loki stuff is that that wasn't the genderfluid Loki we all know and love. That was Old Loki, who was a male, who was using a woman's body partially because he could use it to seduce and confuse men. It was basically a classic trap, something which today would be a rather offensive storyline but which here, ironically, helped give us our current Loki who is genderfluid.
Now, Doom didn't just go on a cute date with Lady Loki, he also had a fantasy where he took Emma Frost and Lady Loki as sex slaves for him and his BFF Namor to have their way with.
He also had a basement full of Loki clones who he was abusing and experimenting on.
We also have a panel from Magneto where Doom and Mangetonare talking and Loki is sitting back looking like Doom's bored girlfriend.[/QUOTE]
But that wasn't out of any romantic/sexual interest, he was trying to make his own Clor. (Cloki? and failed, in any case)
And the Magneto thing, I mean that was because Magneto went to Latveria to get Doom coincidentally right at the same time Loki was there. But it's not like they were just... Hanging out. It was because they had just been fighting, as shown in Loki's book at the time, and then called a truce because Loki saved Latveria. Loki was only there though because Doom had tried to [I]kill him[/I]
he had a fantasy, because, as mentioned by others above, at that time Loki was in the form of a beautiful woman. Just because he expressed interest (unhealthy as it may have been) in one circumstance where Loki was a woman doesn't mean every other instance he showed some kind of interest is also sexually/romantically motivated, or that it would extend to Loki now that he is (mostly) male again. I don't think he has any interest in Loki whatsoever romantically, unless Loki is in a female body at the time, and even then it would be more physical than anything, and he'd never admit it. Doom comes across as straight to me, that was a weird situation, but he was he was still attracted to someone who appeared to be female.
Johnny, I do think an argument could be made for being bi. And it's not as if him being bi invalidates any of his past interest in women. He could still be mostly attracted to women, but open to the possibility of a guy. As has probably been mentioned before, due to the comics code and just society I general, for a long time characters simply could not be shown to be gay or bi. Now that they can show that openly, I don't think it's a bad thing to reveal some of those older characters may not actually be straight, as long as it fits, and I think it could here.
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As for Doom, he's always come off entirely as straight to me. With the exception of his Hate-Attraction to Mr. Fantastic.
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[QUOTE=Raye;4583783]
Johnny, I do think an argument could be made for being bi. And it's not as if him being bi invalidates any of his past interest in women. He could still be mostly attracted to women, but open to the possibility of a guy. As has probably been mentioned before, due to the comics code and just society I general, for a long time characters simply could not be shown to be gay or bi. Now that they can show that openly, I don't think it's a bad thing to reveal some of those older characters may not actually be straight, as long as it fits, and I think it could here.[/QUOTE]
It could.
But deep down I doubt that Marvel would do anything particularly interesting with it. By that I mean I suspect all the Marvel characters would be fine with it...there would be no story lines about Johnny agonising about impact of “coming out”, some of the people he always thought tolerant wouldn’t unexpectedly have issues with him being bi...
But unless it does trigger off story lines we wouldn’t see if he just had another girl friend...is there any point in him being bi?
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[QUOTE=Doombot;4583025]You could just as easily argue Doom has the hots for Lady Sif, as that's who's body Loki was stealing. Doom has had no hint of attraction to Loki in any other form over the years.[/QUOTE]
The assumption is that doom would sleep with Sif without consent?
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[QUOTE=scourge;4583971]As for Doom, he's always come off entirely as straight to me. With the exception of his Hate-Attraction to Mr. Fantastic.[/QUOTE]
He's clearly attracted to Namor.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584016]He's clearly attracted to Namor.[/QUOTE]
More so than to any woman he's ever interacted with, it seems. (Seriously though, he showed some interest in Storm, but I feel like he admires the same things about her as he does Namor, the sense of royalty, the regal presence they both share.)
I don't think Doom has attractions. He probably recognizes the need to take a wife, at some point, to be queen to his king, and he's got rooms and clothes and scripted appearances all set for her, and a closet to store her in when she's not on his arm.
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They still haven't explained how he impregnated that woman Tony was with. She reacted as if she hadn't slept with Doom.
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[QUOTE=Zero Hunter;4582196]Unless it states it 100% on panel in an actual book where he says "I like men", then no he is not bi and all the wishfull thinking is just that. You can look back on on almost any character and pull random panels from the last 60 years that imply thing, but that does not make them facts.[/QUOTE]
Find me a panel that says “I only like women.”
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[QUOTE=Tycon;4584066]Find me a panel that says “I only like women.”[/QUOTE]
Find me a panel that says "I'm bisexual!"
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[QUOTE=Crimz;4574402][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9ExGbwUwAEMFag?format=jpg&name=900x900[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Are sexy, half-naked men not allowed to make french toast for their roommates without being accused of degeneracy? Damn these homosexuals for perverting the sanctity of platonic male friendship!
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Nope, he's not. Just because some writers threw a line or two that can be interpreted through a certain lens if you want it to,doesn't make it so. There is nothing that explicitly states that he is, so currently he is not.It always could change obviously whoever writes the character can make that determination, but I have never read him as anything other than straight. Typically in FF stories he seems to be extremely attracted to women and seems to make impulsive decision following on that attraction that lead him into trouble, there has never been anything like that in relation to him feeling that way about men. Sure some of the stuff like the panels with Peter that keep popping up in the thread are kinda awkward but I just take that as Johnny being an annoying prankster intentionally irritating his friend and nothing more. Obviously people can read into whatever they want pretty sure no matter how much evidence there is that characters are straight some people look for it to not be that way, I think I have in the time I have been on here see people insuinate the same thing about, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Jean, Cyclops, Captain America, Bucky, Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Spider-Woman, Kitty Pryde, Magneto, Gambit, Nightwing despite none of them ever actually being shown involved in any relationship that would make it so. Kinda seems like pretty much every character has some people who swear that they are something that has never been outright stated or shown in anything other than kinda ambiguous random panels that have never really been followed up on.
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[QUOTE=Shreene;4584073]Find me a panel that says "I'm bisexual!"[/QUOTE]
Isn't that part of the point some are making?
That because there is no version of either of those panels, he could be either. And that some of us think he is based on the evidence we've been reading?
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584008]The assumption is that doom would sleep with Sif without consent?[/QUOTE]
Not sure where the assumption is coming from. He's clearly attracted physically to Sif, just unaware it was Sif. If you're talking about the fantasy, it was literally a power fantasy, a daydream. I doubt anyone here would believe Doom would lower himself to the level of rapist.
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[QUOTE=Doombot;4584237]Not sure where the assumption is coming from. He's clearly attracted physically to Sif, just unaware it was Sif. If you're talking about the fantasy, it was literally a power fantasy, a daydream. I doubt anyone here would believe Doom would lower himself to the level of rapist.[/QUOTE]
He used the Purple Man to remove everyone’s free will. Why would anyone doubt it? Because he’s a good guy?
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Not because he's a good guy, but because it goes against his own demented moral code. Notice how he didn't go raping and pillaging when he did use the Purple Man's powers, he felt humanity was better off with him ruling them.
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4583010]The thing about the Doom and Lady Loki stuff is that that wasn't the genderfluid Loki we all know and love. That was Old Loki, who was a male, who was using a woman's body partially because he could use it to seduce and confuse men. It was basically a classic trap, something which today would be a rather offensive storyline but which here, ironically, [B]helped give us our current Loki who is genderfluid.[/B][/QUOTE]
Isn't is basically the same Loki though? He's just trying to act differently but he's the same guy.
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[QUOTE=Frontier;4584303]Isn't is basically the same Loki though? He's just trying to act differently but he's the same guy.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure about how this jumped from Is Johnny bisexual to Is Doom bisexual?
IMO, Maybe for Johnny and I don't think so for Doom.
At same time I don't think that Doom could be interested in Sif at all, he hasn't show interest in her before or after and he knew all the time that the mind in that body was Loki.
Yes he actually felt attraction to Loki but we are talking about a Loki in a female body.
It's a case that "hey we are buddies, we have the same tastes in wine, the same experience with jealousy, both like magic, both are most intelligent that anybody in the respective realm, both feel superior to others, both had complicate morals, and we have fun together. We could be a nice couple if we were sexually compatible, sadly we are not"
And then Loki appears in a hot female body. And Doom gets confused for a bit.
It's like you have a friend who is gay and could be your perfect match, but you are heterosexual so nothing is going to happen.
Then he returns after a while and now he is not only a she but is HOT. You can perfectly feel confused, but still being heterosexual.
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but he even acted like Loki. I vividly remember loki and doom sitting at a dinner table. and Loki is just going to town on some poisoned meat; like no table manners at all. was this hot to Doom?
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[QUOTE=Doombot;4584257]Not because he's a good guy, but[B] because it goes against his own demented moral code.[/B] Notice how he didn't go raping and pillaging when he did use the Purple Man's powers, he felt humanity was better off with him ruling them.[/QUOTE]
or it isn't as fun to do it without having the overpower the person. isn't that how he lost? he got bored and needed something to fight. and play it all the way out. what if everyone had remained under the thrall of the Purple Man. Doom has physical needs. what would he have done? keep in mind that he has used his position as king to just walk down to the village and choose a companion for kicks. he took full advantage of an amnesic Wanda as well. isn't anyone else curious how he duplicated her body to make that Wanda-bot? I imagine that it came after a very invasive inspection.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584925]but he even acted like Loki. I vividly remember loki and doom sitting at a dinner table. and Loki is just going to town on some poisoned meat; like no table manners at all. was this hot to Doom?[/QUOTE]
He, maybe, as I said, Doom finds Loki mentally compatible (but in a male form not physically) Woman-Loki was like the behaviour he liked in a body he also liked so mentally and physically compatible.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584928]or it isn't as fun to do it without having the overpower the person. isn't that how he lost? he got bored and needed something to fight. and play it all the way out. what if everyone had remained under the thrall of the Purple Man. Doom has physical needs. what would he have done? keep in mind that he has used his position as king to just walk down to the village and choose a companion for kicks. he took full advantage of an amnesic Wanda as well. isn't anyone else curious how he duplicated her body to make that Wanda-bot? I imagine that it came after a very invasive inspection.[/QUOTE]
I was just thinking about this with Wanda. Even if they had gotten married, had they had sex, it could very easily be seen as a form of rape.
And his fantasy with Loki basically involved turning them into his sex slave and he-with Namor having Emma Frost-overpowering them.
I don't think Doom sees himself as a rapist and I don't think he would do it in an overt way and I'm sure you could interpret his fantasy with Loki and Emma about being more about revenge, but it's still a power fantasy, which is really what rape boils down to.
Even his thing with Wanda was him taking control of thisnpowerful woman.
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If Doom is just some horny dude looking to hump everything why didn't he have one last **** with Valeria before killing her? Surely that would be his ultimate power fantasy. :p
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[QUOTE=Desmark;4585202]If Doom is just some horny dude looking to hump everything why didn't he have one last **** with Valeria before killing her? Surely that would be his ultimate power fantasy. :p[/QUOTE]
I didn't say he was horny. He clearly never tried to act on his fantasy by kidnapping Loki, forcing him into a female form, and raping them.
No, if you want that, there are plenty of fanfictions for you.
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Happy Bi visibility day.
That is all.
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[QUOTE=Shreene;4584073]Find me a panel that says "I'm bisexual!"[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t exist yet. But there is subtext that can be used. But other than that, his sexuality isn’t set in stone. Which is my point of you didn’t get that.
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4585219]I didn't say he was horny. He clearly never tried to act on his fantasy by kidnapping Loki, forcing him into a female form, and raping them.
No, if you want that, there are plenty of fanfictions for you.[/QUOTE]
It is a jocular suggestion meant to highlight the absurdity of the scenarios being suggested by some through scrutinizing minutiae and subtext and not something I necessarily want to see occur on panel though if it does occur I won't necessarily be revolted by it like some prude. Ultimately it's up to the writers to decide how much sexual content they do insert.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584925]but he even acted like Loki. I vividly remember loki and doom sitting at a dinner table. and Loki is just going to town on some poisoned meat; like no table manners at all. was this hot to Doom?[/QUOTE]
Doom was testing to see if this was the real Loki. The tone of the story was more like a OTT comedy not to be taken seriously.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4584928]or it isn't as fun to do it without having the overpower the person. isn't that how he lost? he got bored and needed something to fight. and play it all the way out. what if everyone had remained under the thrall of the Purple Man. Doom has physical needs. what would he have done? keep in mind that he has used his position as king to just walk down to the village and choose a companion for kicks. he took full advantage of an amnesic Wanda as well. isn't anyone else curious how he duplicated her body to make that Wanda-bot? I imagine that it came after a very invasive inspection.[/QUOTE]
You're confusing Doom with Hawkeye aren't you? He's the one that slept with Wanda. I know it sounds amusing but I tend to doubt that Hawkeye slept with a robot and didn't realize it. And no, Doom did not take advantage of Wanda if you are talking about them sleeping together. She would have remembered it as soon as she regained her memory. Here's a refresher for you
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pmeKzxHdj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/eKzxHd.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pmPK1cATj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/PK1cAT.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585340]You're confusing Doom with Hawkeye aren't you? He's the one that slept with Wanda. I know it sounds amusing but I tend to doubt that Hawkeye slept with a robot and didn't realize it. And no, Doom did not take advantage of Wanda if you are talking about them sleeping together. She would have remembered it as soon as she regained her memory. Here's a refresher for you[/QUOTE]
Well I actually found more amusing that Hawkeye has slept with a robot and didn't notice so that's the version I like to believe, as I find amusing that he kissed Loki when he was in Wanda's form.
I don't like to think a lot about Children crusade because was the saga who made me drop Wanda as a character after years of following her.
But as far as I remember Doom never forced Wanda, if something he bent to her wishes as much as Doom is able to do it for someone and was pretty protective even taking the guilt so she could get away free without repercussions. He was still a jerk with everybody else but he never mistreated Wanda and she was pretty comfortable (an even in love since she still wanted to get married) with him.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585340]You're confusing Doom with Hawkeye aren't you? [/QUOTE]
Clint's been dead to me for awhile actually. not for this particular incident. but yeah they both took advantage. at least with Clint, there's the plausible deniability of not being in his right mind.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585340] He's the one that slept with Wanda. I know it sounds amusing but I tend to doubt that Hawkeye slept with a robot and didn't realize it. [/QUOTE]
to even posit this, you'd have to believe that doom was an incompetent roboticist. Clint clearly didn't know that Wanda was a robot. and he didn't make sexual advances towards Wanda. he showed up to confront her about being murdered. Doom created a sex bot to steer people away from the real Wanda. he would have to make that bot realistic enough to fool Wanda's friends; even while she's naked.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585340]
And no, Doom did not take advantage of Wanda if you are talking about them sleeping together. She would have remembered it as soon as she regained her memory. Here's a refresher for you
[/QUOTE]
not sure what you think you're showing me other than that Wanda is easily manipulated. he controlled her so that he could have godlike power. then he used it to kill a teenager before running away like a coward. probably a hypnotic suggestion like he used on the Arthurian times lady. look at that first panel. he's standing behind her like a ventriloquist.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585323]Doom was testing to see if this was the real Loki. The tone of the story was more like a OTT comedy not to be taken seriously.[/QUOTE]
he has a thing for brunette sorceresses. it's canon.
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[QUOTE=Desmark;4585202]If Doom is just some horny dude looking to hump everything why didn't he have one last **** with Valeria before killing her? Surely that would be his ultimate power fantasy. :p[/QUOTE]
he wore her skin. that is the ultimate intimacy. it's always sexual for serial killers.
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[QUOTE=Rosebunse;4585170]I was just thinking about this with Wanda. Even if they had gotten married, had they had sex, it could very easily be seen as a form of rape.
And his fantasy with Loki basically involved turning them into his sex slave and he-with Namor having Emma Frost-overpowering them.
I don't think Doom sees himself as a rapist and I don't think he would do it in an overt way and I'm sure you could interpret his fantasy with Loki and Emma about being more about revenge, but it's still a power fantasy, which is really what rape boils down to.
Even his thing with Wanda was him taking control of this powerful woman.[/QUOTE]
True, that was a bit dicey of Heinberg to have her agree to marry Doom while she still hadn't regained her memories. But even when she regained her memories she still wanted to go through with the marriage. It was really Doom who backed out after that whole deal with him getting the Life Force instead of her when Eli took a shot at him while Wanda, Wiccan and Doom were attempting the spell again. When you think about it, the one thing he did do was to stop her from wandering around in her state of amnesia when anything could have happened to her. She came to see Doom in Latveria in the first place to make a plea for her fellow Roma. She at least remembered enough about him that he was a protector of his fellow Roma. (see other post for scans)
Honestly though I don't know what re-litigating Children's Crusade has to do with all this! :D
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4585457]he wore her skin. that is the ultimate intimacy. it's always sexual for serial killers.[/QUOTE]
Had forgotten about that gruesome part. Thanks for reminding me.
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[QUOTE=Coatl;4585394][B]Well I actually found more amusing that Hawkeye has slept with a robot and didn't notice so that's the version I like to believe, as I find amusing that he kissed Loki when he was in Wanda's form.
[/B]
I don't like to think a lot about Children crusade because was the saga who made me drop Wanda as a character after years of following her.
But as far as I remember Doom never forced Wanda, if something he bent to her wishes as much as Doom is able to do it for someone and was pretty protective even taking the guilt so she could get away free without repercussions. He was still a jerk with everybody else but he never mistreated Wanda and she was pretty comfortable (an even in love since she still wanted to get married) with him.[/QUOTE]
And he knew it wasn't her by her kiss alone.
It's really hard to believe that he didn't notice that she was a doombot. But I agree in that it's hilarious max.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4585453]he has a thing for brunette sorceresses. it's canon.[/QUOTE]
Well duh...I was just pointing out that the dinner story with all the death traps being tossed at Loki was not in a serious vein.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585533]Well duh...I was just pointing out that the dinner story with all the death traps being tossed at Loki was not in a serious vein.[/QUOTE]
well that much is true. not sure why he thought the flame throwers would work.
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[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4585442]Clint's been dead to me for awhile actually. not for this particular incident. but yeah they both took advantage. at least with Clint, there's the plausible deniability of not being in his right mind.
to even posit this, you'd have to believe that doom was an incompetent roboticist. Clint clearly didn't know that Wanda was a robot. and he didn't make sexual advances towards Wanda. he showed up to confront her about being murdered. Doom created a sex bot to steer people away from the real Wanda. he would have to make that bot realistic enough to fool Wanda's friends; even while she's naked.[/QUOTE]
At the time that the Wanda bot was destroyed in the first issue of Children's Crusade, Victor and Wanda had not had been intimate in fact they never were or Wanda would have remembered it. She bore no malice towards Doom when the story ended.
It has never been specifically stated that Clint slept with a Doombot. Sure, people joke about it but the woman he slept with looked like this.
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/po0GmPuSj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/0GmPuS.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
The Doombot looked like this, with no indication of the sophistication of Doom using a much more complex an artificial being. It's strictly "nuts and bolts" functionally and I doubt Doom would create one in anticipation of someone having sex with it.
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/plkpoz6mj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/kpoz6m.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/poK2jui2j][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/K2jui2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;4585442]
not sure what you think you're showing me other than that Wanda is easily manipulated. he controlled her so that he could have godlike power. then he used it to kill a teenager before running away like a coward. probably a hypnotic suggestion like he used on the Arthurian times lady. look at that first panel. he's standing behind her like a ventriloquist.[/QUOTE]
That's your own interpretation and obviously not the story Heinberg was telling. I doubt if any one else read this and came to the same conclusion that you do with your obvious and long standing bias.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]At the time that the Wanda bot was destroyed in the first issue of Children's Crusade, Victor and Wanda had not had been intimate in fact they never were or Wanda would have remembered it. [/QUOTE]
maybe he had an off night. maybe she reminded him too much of his mother. maybe she accidentally called him 'Clint.'
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]She bore no malice towards Doom when the story ended. [/QUOTE]
or course not. she got an expensive ring out of the deal.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]It has never been specifically stated that Clint slept with a Doombot. Sure, people joke about it but the woman he slept with looked like this.[/QUOTE]
Doom made the robot. it being or not being part of the doombot collection is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]The Doombot looked like this, with no indication of the sophistication of Doom using a much more complex an artificial being. It's strictly "nuts and bolts" functionally and I doubt Doom would create one in anticipation of someone having sex with it. [/QUOTE]
the wanda bot came on to Clint and had working lady parts.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]That's your own interpretation and obviously not the story Heinberg was telling. I doubt if any one else read this and came to the same conclusion that you do with your obvious and long standing bias. [/QUOTE]
maybe i'm more perceptive. i knew that Scott would one day have a live-action movie and that Doom would be hard to adapt.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;4585675]At the time that the Wanda bot was destroyed in the first issue of Children's Crusade, Victor and Wanda had not had been intimate in fact they never were or Wanda would have remembered it. She bore no malice towards Doom when the story ended.
It has never been specifically stated that Clint slept with a Doombot. Sure, people joke about it but the woman he slept with looked like this.
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/po0GmPuSj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/0GmPuS.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
The Doombot looked like this, with no indication of the sophistication of Doom using a much more complex an artificial being. It's strictly "nuts and bolts" functionally and I doubt Doom would create one in anticipation of someone having sex with it.
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/plkpoz6mj][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/kpoz6m.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/poK2jui2j][IMG]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/K2jui2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
That's your own interpretation and obviously not the story Heinberg was telling. I doubt if any one else read this and came to the same conclusion that you do with your obvious and long standing bias.[/QUOTE]
For what is worth, even if it's been a while since I read it all, I'm pretty sure that Clint was really not very in his own mind when he slept with Wanda*. He was angry (a bit mad at Wanda, but angry at everything else. He didn't really hold much a grudge and it showed after that issue with their interactions), he was down (at least he felt like a bit depressed for me), and he was probably not sure anymore about where his place was or what really had happened (understable after being death, then in an alternate reality, then death again--or erased more so; then coming back to a reality in where his friends were warring against each other). So I doubt he had any real idea of what he was doing, and he definitely was drawn in that issue as if he weren't sure he was doing the right thing. I took it as him not being even sure if Wanda was pretending to be amnesiac or she wasn't her and she was another woman entirely (besides being genuinely her and amnesiac, I mean). And then there was whatever he found there when he woke up. Which, as far as I recall, was another plot thread that Bendis never addressed again.
Now, it wasn't a good thing to do, but it was a very human thing to do. And as much as I would want to complain about Bendis take on him, that's a mess classic Clint would've put himself in, I think.