Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

Don't worry, he wears a Bat-thermal underpants

Batman 66 issue whatever... Mr. Freeze, I think

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4783751]
Btw do these hit and runs by Moore frustrate anyone else? Dude is good, far too good for the writing, but it’s like just a couple pages here and there just to fluff the previews. Though I guess it’s not like any of the other various random artists they get for the book leave an impression. Still...[/QUOTE]

I want him to stay away from Ric because he brings in an audience.

By the way, I checked Comichron for November, congratulations to Red Hood finally selling higher than Ric.

Issue was just predictable and boring. Par for the course with Jurgans. In the end the newly revealed big bads of the direction do nothing, and Ric lives on to waste another 6 months or so. Despite the new memories and reinstated history. Making them pointless and completely useless. So good thing they put that in there to reflect Doomsday Clock. But Bea and Ric are definitely Not Over. As if anyone gives a crap about that...

I think the fact he didn't dump Bea upon remembering he proposed to Babs is a death flag. Bea will be disposed of when he does go back to normal, and I won't be surprised if Joker kills her. Can see the four fake Nightwings also falling to the clown prince of crime.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4783903]Don't worry, he wears a Bat-thermal underpants

Batman 66 issue whatever... Mr. Freeze, I think



I want him to stay away from Ric because he brings in an audience.

By the way, I checked Comichron for November, congratulations to Red Hood finally selling higher than Ric.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's news that makes us that much happy. I mean; it would have been awesome, if NW were selling like a year or year and half ago. That would mean we got better, and not just less worse than NW. NW selling 20k... it's so weird. 21k for us is good with variants. It's our normal, or maybe a little bit better than normal. We were selling 18k in October, I think.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4784403]I think the fact he didn't dump Bea upon remembering he proposed to Babs is a death flag. Bea will be disposed of when he does go back to normal, and I won't be surprised if Joker kills her. Can see the four fake Nightwings also falling to the clown prince of crime.[/QUOTE]

I still don’t understand how Talon didn’t kill her, or any of them. Joker better watch out for Condor Red LoL.

[QUOTE=Robanker;4783512]Not buying that Dick is back until he's in the Nightwing costume slinging zingers again. Until then I'm refusing to buy Nightwing. They gotta COMMIT to bringing him back. And please ditch the updated Robin suit. More than anyone else, Dick should always have rocked the classic suit. He owned it. Stop being ashamed.[/QUOTE]
I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.

If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.

[QUOTE=Frontier;4784485]I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.

If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.[/QUOTE]

Do they have any toy line that uses that costume? It could be because of that.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4784465]I still don’t understand how Talon didn’t kill her, or any of them. Joker better watch out for Condor Red LoL.[/QUOTE]

That's why I think initially he was meant to kill them but they change the plan once Tynion's onboard for Batman and make the summer event.

[QUOTE=Frontier;4784485]I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.

If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I mean they already put pants on kid Robin costume, just wear that until Nightwing.

It's Rocafort.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4784495]Do they have any toy line that uses that costume? It could be because of that.[/QUOTE]

No, the only New 52 Robin to have a toy is Damian. The rest are on their New 52 present identity

By the way, I saw some spoiler pages, and honestly, Travis Moore is the only one who can make dirt mask Ric and his standard torn black t-shirt and jeans to look like a deliberate makeup and fashion choice.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4784938]
No, the only New 52 Robin to have a toy is Damian. The rest are on their New 52 present identity

By the way, I saw some spoiler pages, and honestly, Travis Moore is the only one who can make dirt mask Ric and his standard torn black t-shirt and jeans to look like a deliberate makeup and fashion choice.[/QUOTE]

Travis Moore could make anything look pretty or stylish tbh. I would love much, much, much more of his work here or anywhere. His Dick is such eyecatcher that is my default design for him now. Perfect balance of handsome yet heroic and tough.

Edit: if it isn't because a toy, then, it could be because they don't think people dislike it, I guess.

Yeah I don't mind the N52 Robin suit. I just wish they gave it an actual belt with pouches. Something similar to DCU Titans' Dick Robin suit.

Dick's memory of Alfred, Batman Pennyworth RIP #1
[ATTACH=CONFIG]91719[/ATTACH]

Yes, he's in the book with the family, still in Ric Grayson hair.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4785610]Dick's memory of Alfred, Batman Pennyworth RIP #1
[ATTACH=CONFIG]91719[/ATTACH]

Yes, he's in the book with the family, still in Ric Grayson hair.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully he grows it out

I would have like a memory from when he was younger

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4784982]Travis Moore could make anything look pretty or stylish tbh. I would love much, much, much more of his work here or anywhere. His Dick is such eyecatcher that is my default design for him now. Perfect balance of handsome yet heroic and tough.

Edit: if it isn't because a toy, then, it could be because they don't think people dislike it, I guess.[/QUOTE]

I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4786805]I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.[/QUOTE]

I have a problem with the arms, to be honest. The waist V shape is a bit weak, but it makes the costume look like some kind of performing costume, so I don't mind. But those arms, er... I would rather invert the colours (green where black, black where green) and tone down those protection-things-whatever-that-is that makes me think of a turtle shell :/.

But that's my preference.
I think the classic costume is cute, but it's not flattering, for a better word, when you put it on a teenager or an adult. Not to mention that it doesn't make much sense from a tactical perspective, because it doesn't offer protection.

Edit: what I mean is... Yeah, there must be a lot of people that at least doesn't hate it (like you, or me). So they may not be interested in changing it yet because of that.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4786805]I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.[/QUOTE]

I like the one from titans

Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May. A group called the Condors want to recruit him.

[QUOTE=Katana500;4787809]Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May. A group called the Condors want to recruit him.[/QUOTE]

Solicit for that story calls him "Dick", though - and the cover has him in the old Nightwing costume. So.... Maybe there's hope?

Still Jurgens though.

[QUOTE=Katana500;4787809][U]Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May. [/U] A group called the Condors want to recruit him.[/QUOTE]

Oh god, why just why!? :mad:

A bit of confusion there. There's actually TWO Nightwing solicits, he has an annual. He's called Ric in the solicit for the regular issue. Perhaps #71 is when he fully reverts to normal?
[img]https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzMvNjExL29yaWdpbmFsL05pZ2h0d2luZzcxX2NvdmVycmVkYmx1ZUNMUm5vcmFpbi5qcGc/MTU3OTI3ODcyNg==[/img]
[img]https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzMvNjA5L29yaWdpbmFsL25pZ2h0d2luZ183MV92YXJpYW50LmpwZz8xNTc5Mjc4NzIw[/img]
NIGHTWING #71
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET and TRAVIS MOORE
cover by MIKE PERKINS
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
Having a chat with the Clown Prince of Crime is scary enough…being captured, tied down, and forced to listen to him is something else! Especially when you’re Ric Grayson, and The Joker just wants you out of action so he can get to the Dark Knight. With no idea what his history with The Joker might be, Ric doesn’t find this situation one bit funny.
ON SALE 04.15.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

[img]https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzMvNjEwL29yaWdpbmFsL05pZ2h0d2luZ19Bbm51YWxfM19DTVlLLmpwZz8xNTc5Mjc4NzIz[/img]
NIGHTWING ANNUAL #3
written by DAN JURGENS
art by SCOTT GODLEWSKI
cover by HOWARD PORTER
Dick Grayson has been many things in his life—Robin, agent of Spyral, even Batman...but will he have a choice when the Condors try to recruit him for their cause? And will they take no for an answer? A thrilling, high-octane adventure awaits over the skies of Gotham City!
ON SALE 04.29.20
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | DC

Dammit, they are gonna leave Jurgan's on after Ric aren't they. They are not gonna bothered to give Nightwing a proper return, of course not. Can't even bothered to give him a new costume. Just hey, Nightwing's back. Been a hobo for 2 year, but that has no effect. Here is some boring Nightwing story, by the same creator who has been writhing Ric for the last year. Seriously just kill Dick off then if your just gonna have Jurgan's follow Ric up with whatever boring by the numbers crap he can come up with. You don't get more lame duck then Condor Red. His ideas are so boring, and he doesn't sell for shit. Get him off the book already. Jurgan's telling boring traditional Nightwing stories isn't any better then him telling lazy terrible Ric stories. My stomach hurts. I really hope this is not what we are gonna be getting for after Ric. They can't seriously can't just have him jump back into the suit he was wearing before like the last 2 years hasn't happened and they didn't completely bury the character.

Is this the crossover event that Tynion mentioned?

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4788075]Dammit, they are gonna leave Jurgan's on after Ric aren't they. They are not gonna bothered to give Nightwing a proper return, of course not. Can't even bothered to give him a new costume. Just hey, Nightwing's back. Been a hobo for 2 year, but that has no effect. Here is some boring Nightwing story, by the same creator who has been writhing Ric for the last year. Seriously just kill Dick off then if your just gonna have Jurgan's follow Ric up with whatever boring by the numbers crap he can come up with. You don't get more lame duck then Condor Red. His ideas are so boring, and he doesn't sell for shit. Get him off the book already. Jurgan's telling boring traditional Nightwing stories isn't any better then him telling lazy terrible Ric stories. My stomach hurts. I really hope this is not what we are gonna be getting for after Ric.[/QUOTE]

Why does he need a new costume ?

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4788162]Why does he need a new costume?[/QUOTE]

Cause you can't just follow up Ric with the same old crap. Do something to sell Dick's return as a new start for Nightwing.

My two cents: Joker War is the Summer event teased by Tynion, and between Nightwing#71 and the Annual, we have a Batman (with Joker) and a Batgirl issue (with KGBeast).
So, I'm betting on Dick coming back in the Batman#93 issue (as Tynion stated, he wanted to bring Dick back on Batman), and the Annual being a set up for his new start (in Gotham?)
Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4788172]Cause you can't just follow up Ric with the same old crap. Do something to sell Dick's return as a new start for Nightwing.[/QUOTE]

If nothing else we might be getting the new costume from Doomsday Clock. The one that looks like the old animated suit. Its not much of anything at all, but we have no reason to believe that DC will change how they treat the character just because he finally gets his memory back. "Ric" going away doesn't mean the problems with how DC handles the character will.

[QUOTE=L.H.;4788207]
Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?[/QUOTE]

My guess? If Jurgens is sticking around once Dick returns it'll be because Jurgens is cheaper than bigger name creators. DC might believe that sales won't bounce back once Dick goes back to being Nightwing. They've driven away a lot of readers and lost a lot of faith, and might not believe that fixing Dick will bring us back.

Ya, i have been saying giving Dick his memories back isn't just gonna bring readers back. Cause they have really buried the character, pooped on fan sentiment surrounding the character, and killed off pretty much any general interest. It's gonna take more effort then just bringing him back as Nightwing to recover anything at this point, and time with that improved effort. Guys like Lobdell and Jurgans taking over was the worse thing that could happen to the character, cause it speaks to what the character is to DC. Fodder to keep creators like them working. Guess that isn't changing anything soon.

Im legit nervous about DC's future under the current old guard. Keeping guys you know aren't going anywhere, and throwing away ips on fodder books. That just can't be healthy practice when the industry is in the shape its in.

This sucks...

I suspect that when Dick is back in costume, sales will see a nice spike. For a few issues. Maybe the first arc. And unless DC pushes it hard with the usual tricks; a new #1 and/or a new creative team, and some social media marketing, etc, that spike not even reach the "normal" sales level the title used to have. Like, the spike might bring it up to 30K, well below where the book used to live.

I fully expect that all of us will give that first issue a chance. Because we're suckers, and we've been starved for good Nightwing for two years. But I also suspect that if the book doesn't give us the quality and familiarity we demand, we'll bail before issue 4.

And from there? I suspect sales will drop even further. I think a lot of people still reading Ric are doing so out of loyalty and the understanding that we'll get Nightwing back and somehow that will make the journey worth it. But if it turns out to not be worth it? If those people spent good money for two years on a crap book waiting for a payoff that doesn't deliver? Those people will be done and there might be nothing DC can do to get them back.

Dick's return needs to be quality. If he just puts the suit on and quality stays where it has been? Might as well cancel the title because no one will be reading it.

And even if the book is worth reading, even if its back at the quality level it used to be (which still isn't that great, really) it'll take time for readers to return. We're understandably wary. Even climbing back to 40K with a solid book might take some time, as some people will have to hear good word of mouth before they even consider giving DC their money again.

Exactly. Unless they stack the creative with a big name, which we know will never happen, they are going to have to rebuild fan sentiment and general interest over a length of time now with consistent quality. Nightwing will be lucky if he can sustain over 25k again. The character's fans thinks DC doesn’t like their own character, while general audiences see how widely mocked and criticized his book became. That’s the perception they have created.

But they had to know that. They had to know holding onto a Ric for as long as they are, despite fans and the market being very clear, that they were digging a hole.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4788880]Exactly. Unless they stack the creative with a big name, which we know will never happen, they are going have rebuild fan sentiment and general interest over a consistent length of time now with better quality. He’ll be lucky if he can sustain over 25k again. But they have to know that. They have to know holding onto a Ric for as long as they are, despite fans and the market being very clear, that they were digging a hole.[/QUOTE]

It was proably a hole they wanted to dig. But if he is on his way back to nightwing then sales will return. If we get a good storyline and writer it will surge

As I've said many times before I won't be coming back until I see they don't do their mistakes again, but I wonder if that's a good way to show it. I mean, should I just buy it to show that Nightwing is what people want and then quit when his story gets interrupted again? ...But no. They already know Nightwing is what people want. Ric sales show that. They just don't care. It doesn't matter.

If I buy Nightwing, if I buy Ric, if I buy Nightwing when his story gets interrupted or him getting victimized, it doesn't matter.

We're not talking about people who direct their company based on sales. We're talking about old fanboys where they already know what they want and that's what they'll do, and the company makes enough money that they can afford to not care about certain characters, so they can focus

So no matter what I do it won't matter until the old guards are gone.

I'll just get Pennyworth RIP #1 since Dick is back and I'm a supporter of Let's Kill Alfred Rather Than The Main Characters and see where it goes from there.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4788947]As I've said many times before I won't be coming back until I see they don't do their mistakes again, but I wonder if that's a good way to show it. [/QUOTE]

My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read.

With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure, if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?

Sales spiking with Nightwing's return still doesn't address the underlining problem of management and how they treat valuable IP's. Sales dropping didn't push them to restore the character and title. If they don't shake up or invest time, thought and resources to Nightwing after this rough patch then they've learnt nothing and all the fans who dropped/voted with their wallets have all being for nought.

[QUOTE=Ascended;4789049]My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read.

With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure, if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?[/QUOTE]

Dick's pretty much always in the 1st wave of toy release along with Bats, Supes and Harley.

He's the main in Titans TV show. Is the Robin/lead of TTGO [the most profitable and main getaway for youngfans in the past few years at least] He's a fan favourite and a lead in YJ. Has the 2nd highest profile/presence of the Batuniverse characters just behind Batman.

If that isn't a character that has a lot riding on him then I don't know.

DC/WB uses him to push/front so much outside of comics but within DC comics they make little effort to invest what one would expect for a character with a high profile.

There's a disconnect. Perhaps WB has little to no knowledge of what the comics are doing.

[QUOTE=Ascended;4789049]My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read.

With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?[/QUOTE]

That's a good idea, and there's a lot of Nightwing figures lately and most of them have high quality. I LOVE the Arkham Knight and Kotobukiya ones.

[QUOTE=L.H.;4788207]My two cents: Joker War is the Summer event teased by Tynion, and between Nightwing#71 and the Annual, we have a Batman (with Joker) and a Batgirl issue (with KGBeast).
So, I'm betting on Dick coming back in the Batman#93 issue (as Tynion stated, he wanted to bring Dick back on Batman), and the Annual being a set up for his new start (in Gotham?)
Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?[/QUOTE]

I was coming into the thread to say this exact thing. Didn't Tynion say something about how his run would involve the return of Dick? And now with this tease of joker war and Joker also showing up in Nightwing..the cards seem to line up to well to the event involving Dick Grayson coming back.

By the way... this is Classic Joker who shows up, not the Metal/Endgame Joker with his awful hair... or it's the same Joker but he just grows his hair again.

Like Dick.

lol

Three Jokers, remember...

We might need to have Dick move out of the Batman household

[QUOTE=dietrich;4789087]Dick's pretty much always in the 1st wave of toy release along with Bats, Supes and Harley.

He's the main in Titans TV show. Is the Robin/lead of TTGO [the most profitable and main getaway for youngfans in the past few years at least] He's a fan favourite and a lead in YJ. Has the 2nd highest profile/presence of the Batuniverse characters just behind Batman.

If that isn't a character that has a lot riding on him then I don't know.

There's a disconnect. Perhaps WB has little to no knowledge of what the comics are doing.[/QUOTE]

Well, there's two ways to look at it I think.

The first is that larger media success doesn't translate to floppies. Otherwise Iron Man and Captain America would dominate the Diamond figures (which they don't). It's rare that larger media success translates into comic success, and the few exceptions to that (like Ant-Man or the GotG) basically just manage to crawl up to the middling sales rankings; they don't dominate they just become semi-viable. So the fact that Dick is popular in games and shows and whatnot doesn't necessarily mean that he's worth pushing in the comics.

But secondly, there *is* a disconnect when we look at the comics themselves. Dick used to sell better than everyone except the League and Harley, and it wasn't uncommon for him to sell better than some Leaguers like Aquaman or Flash either if I recall correctly. His sales were amazingly consistent with a very high sales floor (higher than a lot of A-listers). And he accomplished this with, usually, lower end talent, meaning his profit ratio (production costs v. unit sales) is also probably on the higher end of his (mid-level) sales tier. There's plenty of data we don't have, accounts and income sheets, etc., and that might change the facts, but looking at the data we do have it can't really be argued that Nightwing was successful, with tons of brand loyalty.

All of that says that Nightwing is a book the company can rely on. It'll pay the electric bill month in and month out, you don't gotta worry about it. And maybe that's enough; there's a lot of IP's for DC to use and experiment with and invest in, and new ideas coming in all the time that might catch on in a big way (it does happen, despite being rare). So if DC had just left Nightwing alone and continued to put in the same effort and investment, that would have been a safe move and decent business choice. Again, just looking at the limited data we have.

If someone wanted to take the IP and pull more revenue out of it, then you're running a risk that might pay off or might not. And that might be what happened with Ric. Grayson was a critical success but sold only moderately better, so Ric spinning out of King's Batman might have been DC's attempt to get more eyes on the IP, with a startling new direction to generate interest. Can't blame them for that, it's a viable option. But after two years with nothing but declining returns, clearly this isn't working out. Which leaves us with the question of why it's still happening. And the potential answers to that are what have so many of us concerned. And rightfully so, I think.

Nightwing sales were declining more and more with them failing to find a replacement for Seeley, so a stunt wasn’t unwarranted. Problem lies with them putting the Bat lines lowest charting creators on the stunt, then letting things go on longer then Grayson despite it clearly not working and being widely rejected.

It makes no sense to think the guys on the books charting even lower then Nightwing were going to improve things. Thats just illogical. The only thing those creators manage to accomplish was to bring Nightwing closer in performance to RHatO and Batman Beyond. Which of course. That’s why they can’t seriously leave Jurgan’s on after Ric and expect a different result then.