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[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5050403]When did Bat-lite perception first start?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.
Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized.
Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.
[QUOTE=Drako;5050417]I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. :D
We are all just waiting for this to be over.[/QUOTE]
We did? Whatever. I'm surprised godlike is still reading that crap; I wouldn't pay good money for this. I wouldn't read it if it were free.
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[QUOTE=Drako;5050417]I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. :D
We are all just waiting for this to be over.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, i thougth that you people were exagerating about how bad it was....then i read the first few issues and man i didn't to continue, at least the 49 issues before this started were mostly enjoyable.
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I’m oc. I hate myself for still reading it. And now with COVID, I’m trying to get what I can to help my shop.
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[QUOTE=Godlike13;5050651]And now with COVID, I’m trying to get what I can to help my shop.[/QUOTE]
Well I can definitely respect that. I hope all of us are doing what we can to help our local shops, and the industry in general, right now.
I *did* pick up Lost Carnival the other day, but haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet.
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Ya, grabbed that too. Haven’t read it yet though.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;5050574]I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.
Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized.
Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.
[/QUOTE]
The line started when it becomes unacceptable. For example, as Robin, he's created to be a sidekick, so saying he's secondary to Batman is not wrong.
So at which point that being a Bat-lite becomes wrong for him?
for me, at first, it was when I heard he has become Batman, has his own Robin, and became a Leaguer because at that point they sound like an equal. However, it seems DC and Batman fans view it as a temporary filler instead of a full circle. So they never really acknowledge it.
Then I found out that Nightwing is already an attempt to separate himself, and it happened in Titans instead of in a Batman family story. His marriage with Starfire was another attempt.
So it may start earlier than I thought.
Of course, I don't blame DC wanting to save Nightwing from Titans losing profit by folding him back to the Bat-family, but that's also when I thought Nightwing was always the identity between Robin and Batman because that is how it's portrayed in larger media. Nightwing is always a part of and follows Batman, and when I first got into comics I'm surprised that fans view Nightwing more than that, because at first, I thought that was all he is, a sidekick, just an older one.
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The question is maybe a bigger event. I mean what if Dick had his own big event. Where the Batfam and TT have to come together?
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If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.
The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;5050574]I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce. [/QUOTE]
He does have similarities, but Dick is a different individual to Bruce. For starters, he is a team player. He also leads from the front and isn't afraid to be seen in public. There was a time where, if Nightwing was in the room, the other heroes listened. The only other hero who commands that respect is Superman.
Giving him his own solo was a great start. I can see what they were trying to do, but the execution steered to close to familiar territory. Dick was given his own city, but that city was said to be even worse than Gotham. He had his own version of The Batmobile. Plus Bludhaven was just down the road from Gotham. There are a few more examples, but they did play it safe when they kicked off his first solo.
Dick shares a similar backstory to Bruce, but Nightwing hasn't allowed that tragedy to consume him the way Bruce has. Before the current character assassination he is undergoing, Dick enjoyed being a hero. He always had a smile on his face when beating up on bad guys. Bruce doesn't necessarily enjoy being Batman. He does it out of a compulsive need to prevent what happened to him from occurring to others. Not for entirely for altruistic reasons.
One thing I often didn't like is when writer's tried to play Dick up as a great detective. He knows proper police procedure (how could he not when being raised by Bruce), but he hasn't got that detective mindset like Bruce has. As Robin I could see that stuff boring him when he would rather be doing somersaults from Gotham skyscrapers.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;5051314]If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.
The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]
And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.
The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.
Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.
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[QUOTE=Konja7;5051460]And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.
The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.
Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]
Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do :p
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[QUOTE=Konja7;5051460]And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.
The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.
Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise.
There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks
Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.
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[QUOTE=WonderNight;5051483]This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise.
There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks
Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.[/QUOTE]
I think the current situation is worse than 90s or 2000s.
I mean, there are many places in the whole DCU, but most are in a pretty bad situation. Also, I'm not sure where he might fit in and what role he would have.
Even Grayson was still part of Batman editorial, Dick was just away from Batman family events (for a while), because they don't want to use him.
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[QUOTE=Somecrazyaussie;5051479]Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do :p[/QUOTE]
They are definitely scared of it. :p
And no, we won't get an Event for Nightwing.....at least not with things the way they were under Didio. And I doubt we'll get one under Lee, though we haven't seen enough of him as sole publisher to *really* know.
*Maybe* we get some kind of Titans Event, with Dick having a big role, but that's probably as close as we'll get, and I find even that to be pretty damn unlikely.
Things are definitely worse than the 90's or 00's. Back then, Nightwing didn't get a ton of effort from DC either but they at least treated him as a solo property instead of a f*cking sidekick.
But sooner or later, DC will recognize the potential they're wasting and decide they'd like to make more money. Oh, speaking of money, does anyone have any idea how Lost Carnival sold?
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I mean ignoring Dc. If Dick were to have his own main event. What would it be? Talking outside the box. If we were to take Dick outside would Dc is allowing him to be. He needs a break from his family. Something not dealing with Batman. I mean it would be a little too easy. We had something like that. Okay many say they want Dick on JL. So what if Dick had a big event that had to deal with saving the JL. Or too crazy? The JL goes missing who better to take over than the Titans. They have to figure out where the JL has gone.
