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[QUOTE=WonderNight;5284424]I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.[/QUOTE]If there is, it'll star Cass and Steph, not Babs. She'll be a voice in the ear, like she is to Batman, but she won't be the protagonist.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw don’t forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.[/QUOTE]Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285940]Dude I don’t even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches. It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities don’t interfere themselves it’s a location it can’t act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and it’s sole purpose can’t be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I can’t think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs can’t.[/QUOTE]You don't know what ARGUS is? Have you not watched Arrow, where it appears quite prominently?
[QUOTE=Ascended;5286094]
The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU.[/QUOTE]Fair point. ARGUS in Arrow and the DEO in Supergirl do seem to do pretty much the same thing. I guess they overlap in the comics too?
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[QUOTE=Digifiend;5288022]Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.[/QUOTE]
And? No one gave a crap they were there. They blew it up because of Nightwing, and he even went on to play a role in IC.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]Oh gods no, nobody is ever going to create the equal to Gotham. But matching Gotham isn't the goal; that's like saying you shouldn't bother playing basketball if you're not as good as Michael Jordan. The goal is to provide a workable, consistent setting that jives with the main character and provides a space for him to do stuff in. You're not wrong that Bludhaven has rarely managed to provide anything worthwhile. Most versions do indeed suck ass. I disagree because you blame the setting and not the creators and editors. You're blaming part of the story for being bad instead of the storytellers who *made* it bad.[/quote]
I never said equal to Gotham. That obviously will never happen in a million years. I said no creator from either Marvel or DC has been able to even create a new city that is a fraction, like 1/8th or even less, of what Gotham is in the last 30 years. Bludhaven is kind of the best example and it is bad. It leads me to believe that it isn't possible to create a new city for an established hero to operate in and have it actually last.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]But nothing that actually proves it won't work out, either. What you have, is a bunch of crappy Nightwing comics and you're pointing to them and saying "these bad creators had bad ideas and told bad stories, and it's Bludhaven's fault." But we can point to good comics that happened in Bludhaven, and good comics that happened outside of it too. It's not Bludhaven, it's the creators.[/quote]
You keep blaming the creators, but if the creators are given faulty tools to work with you can't expect them to succeed. If the list of creators who write about Bludhaven keep failing and nothing ends up sticking maybe it isn't just that they are bad writers but that as a concept Bludhaven is kind of broken. It's a poorly designed city that was created to turn Dick into a traditional Daredevil-lite type hero, but Dick isn't anything like Daredevil. He doesn't have any real ties or a reason to care about Bludhaven the way a Daredevil cares about Hell's Kitchen, which is the core identity of what makes those heroes in those settings work, but we are supposed to believe he wants to be there for... some reason. There is nothing about it that makes it special to Dick other than it was just a place Dixon created to be a worse Gotham.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]Now, if you want to argue that being a nomad is more true to Dick's character and he shouldn't really be tied down to any particular city, I'd largely agree with that. He should have a homebase because nobody wants to perpetually live out of a suitcase, but most of his adventures should be globe trotting.[/quote]
He has Gotham and Titans Tower. They are two home bases that actually have people Dick cares about in them. I don't see the point of a third one when it has nothing in it that would give him a reason to want to keep going back to it. All of his loved ones, friends, allies, and everything else are located outside of Bludhaven.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]And being in Gotham means Dick uses Arkham, and Clayface, and Gordon, instead of his own supporting cast. He'll be in Gotham, no point in trying to build up his own supporting cast right? Because Gotham's so great. What does that do for Dick as a character and hero? It makes him the sidekick DC treated him as. If the goal is to make Nightwing viable as a solo IP (and I believe it should be, though it's a long-term investment) then using someone else's setting because it's established and better and there's sidekick history there, is absolutely counterintuitive. Yes, a new setting (or Bludhaven) isn't as good as Gotham. Make it better. Build it up. Mandate your writers that they can't nuke everything and start from scratch, that they actually have to adhere to continuity. The mistakes of the past have stunted this effort and discarded it, but changing that and starting the process of solid world building is literally one editorial memo away. [/QUOTE]
Gotham is a big enough playground to have his own stories in. Dick's greatest solo story was him as Batman running around Gotham with Jim Gordon in Black Mirror. You couldn't do more stories like that with him in Gotham as Nightwing? I think you can. I mean dragging assets from Gotham to use for Bludhaven makes Bludhaven kind of redundant. Even Taylor is dragging Batgirl and a Zucco from Gotham to prop up Bludhaven some. I mean did people complain when Tim, Cass, Steph, Barbara, Jason, Catwoman, Harley, and others have solo stories set in Gotham? They didn't, so I don't get why it is just an issue for Dick.
And forcing writers to use things they don't like probably won't lead to good stories. A big reason writers don't like using the stuff old Bludhaven writers made is because they are kind of terrible. Seeley tried to bring back a lot of the old Dixon era stuff but all it did was remind me of how awful most of those creations were. Do you really want more Blockbuster stories? I'd be fine with never having to read about Dick fighting him again.
But yeah, I think we beat this topic into the ground for now. We are going in circles and I'm sure that after Taylor's run comes out the topic will be brought up again in some form, lol.
[QUOTE=Vordan;5287765]The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick [B][I]want[/I][/B] to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.
So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?[/QUOTE]
This is what I've been saying the whole time. All the elements you need to have him be connected as a hero to Bludhaven don't exist, but we are supposed think he wants to be there when there is nothing tying him to that city that would give him a reason to care. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You'd have to rebuild Dick's history to make it work I think.
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How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.
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[QUOTE=Godlike13;5288087]How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.[/QUOTE]
Dixon, Grayson, Seeley, Humphries, Percy, Lobdell, Jurgens... 7 and now there will be 8
I don't know if there are other, fill-in writers, in the 90s-2000s
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[QUOTE=Vordan;5287765]The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick [B][I]want[/I][/B] to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.
So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?[/QUOTE]
Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, he decided he might as well roost there.
Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out.
Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.
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[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5288943]Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, [B]he decided he might as well roost there[/B].
Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out.
Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.[/QUOTE]
“I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.
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[QUOTE=Vordan;5289144]“I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.[/QUOTE]
He likes to help and stays where help is needed, and yeah, that means it doesn't have to be Bludhaven. It could be any city, any neighborhood.
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I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one.
What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister.
Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.
I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.
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Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!
Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.
Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.
Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.
There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.
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[QUOTE=Avi;5289780]I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one.
What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister.
Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.
I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.[/QUOTE]
The one timeline is there to establish in canon what Scott Snyder wanted and what Jim Lee announced, so that writers can pull any material from any of their rich history and have it be canon while at the same time not thinking too much about how it's canon, so they can just focus on the character and the story they want to tell in the present.
That's usually a pick and choose what you like, and can change from writer to writer. Let's say the Suicide Squad writer doesn't give any indication that Shrike remembers Nightwing, the moment Williamson uses him in Nightwing, he can establish that he's an old foe... if the story isn't about them meeting for the first time but they remember they used to be enemies. That over complicates things though.
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[QUOTE=WonderNight;5289809]Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!
Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.
Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.
Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.
There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.[/QUOTE]
Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place
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[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5289958]Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place[/QUOTE] Nighwing ain't gettin no spin-off. They'll go with redhood, batgirl or robin first. But whatever nightwing's a dead end Dick! Dick would be better off going to robin or agent 37. Nightwings a waste of time.
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I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5290058]I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls[/QUOTE]
Its not about a story arc its about the fundamental concepts of Nightwing! What's Nightwings selling point? His "gimmick" his "hook"? Right now its fromer robin, batman lite or im dick grayson. That's not gonna got the general public DC WB or AT&T invested! Only already comics dick grayson fans.
DC WB and AT&T needs to be able to look at nightwing and say this is selling point. SomeThing on a fundamental level that different from the character he spinoff from. Investing in Nightwing running around a city while you have batman in gotham is highy redundant. You go to pitch nightwing to AT&T and give them two options.
First: Adult robin\Batman-lite.
Second: Batman meets Bond/Mission Impossible, in the DCU sandbox.
Let be real, we all know which one that'd go with. one of those could be huge for DC & AT&T and we know which one.
