Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5285484]Bludhaven has no role in the dcu, it don't do anything , no one talks about it. It is not like GOTHAM :cool:.

The point would be nightwing building it up to take on leviathan, also play in the larger dcu. Especially with tta having him just as a classroom teacher.[/QUOTE]

It does have a role it’s Nightwings home, one hero can take care of a city

Nightwing cannot run an entire spy organization by himself. It required all of DC agreeing on it and using it. They have pretty much left it in the dust.

Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5285517]The ONE TIME Blüdhaven was relevant to the DCU- Final Crisis- Dick's connection wasn't even mentioned and he played no role in the story. Hell, Tomasi's run in New York had more relevance to the greater DCU with the few throwaway lines in Blackest Night.[/QUOTE]

Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw don’t forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.

But they referenced the events of Nightwing Freefall and the new JLA protocol of holding onto superhero corpses.

Also YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham. So he's still in Gotham. Which again makes sense for him to be in.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. [B]They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell.[/B] It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget Chicago. That era was slightly better than the other examples, but it all just goes to show that it's not the city, it's the story. All those awful stories that happened in Bludhaven would have still been awful if the city had been Gotham, Vegas, NYC, London, or Shanghai. It doesn't matter what the setting is, a bad story is a bad story and calling the city something different changes nothing.

Bludhaven, like any other element of a story, is only as good as the writer. Had Dick spent the last ten-ish years getting quality writers who built on what came before instead of constantly starting over, we'd be saying that Bludhaven is as well-developed a city as Opal, Central, or Metropolis and a critical aspect of Dick's mythos. But because DC has spent so many years half-assing everything and letting writers ignore everything, the city is as poorly developed and defined as all the other aspects of Dick's setting.

Stop victim blaming the city people! It's not Bludhaven's fault the book has been bad. :p

The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285668]The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress[/QUOTE]

Depends if we change the police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5285839]Depends if we change the police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent[/QUOTE]

A role befitting a lost duck we know

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285668]The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress[/QUOTE]

The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.

I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU.

Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.

[QUOTE=Avi;5285888]The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.

I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU.

Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.[/QUOTE]
Dude I don’t even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches. It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities don’t interfere themselves it’s a location it can’t act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and it’s sole purpose can’t be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I can’t think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs can’t.

Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow, and to forgo that for more garbage Bludhaven stories is insane to me. How someone can choose Dick working some boring normal job again as a waiter, bartender, or some stupid cab diver over him saving people around the world and being involved in bigger stories is something I'll never understand.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.[/QUOTE]

Bludhaven doesn't really exist unless Dick is physically in the city. It has nothing else in it of value and is useless unless Dick is there. It does noting for his character but weight him down since Bludhaven has been used as an excuse to keep him away from things. They do use his "Bludhaven responsibilities" as a convenient excuse to explain why he isn't involved in some stories, or as a wedge in his relationships like with Barbara. 100% we will see it again in Taylor's run.

They should just go the Young Justice route and just make Bludhaven a part of Gotham as that is all it basically is now these days. It can't produce anything on its own and they have to drag things from Gotham to even create stories for it.

But I honestly can't wait for Bludhaven to fail again. It sucks more creators are going to waste their time writing stories about it, but when it fails at least everyone's argument that it isn't Bludhaven't fault, or that it isn't that bad, will become narrower and narrower where it will become even harder to stand on anymore, lol.

[QUOTE=Badou;5285991]Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow[/QUOTE]

Agreed with all of this.

The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU.

Leviathan was supposed to streamline all of that and bring it into sharper focus, with a wider influence and range (which is *partially* why it all began in Superman).

Then Didio was fired and everything got thrown into chaos and whatever Bendis had planned to do after that initial Leviathan story died....or maybe just got delayed a lot. Either way, right now all those various spy groups are dead in the water, Leviathan is still technically a major player, and this entire corner of the DCU is available for any character who can grab it and hold onto it.

And of all the heroes in DC, Dick is as well placed as any to take it as his own. He's got the experience with Spyral, not to mention the Owls, HIVE, the Wildebeest Society, and all the other secret societies and spy groups and terror organizations he's dealt with as both a Bat and a Titan. It's a niche he can call his own, he's got the skillset for it, and his personality runs counter to the morally gray, secret-laden world of spies which makes for great drama and internal conflict, without overloading him on self-doubt.

And if Nick Fury could go on adventures with the Howling Commandos while also running SHIELD, Dick can go on adventures while running Spyral. If Batman can be in three different Leagues, the Outsiders, Crisis Events, and still protect Gotham, then Dick can also find time to bust some heads while running a organization. It's not a big stretch to imagine Dick saying "Okay Tiger, you're my right hand, and I'm gonna go punch the Fearsome Five in their noses; you're in charge while I'm gone. Don't assassinate anyone I wouldn't!"

Where I disagree with my man Badou, naturally, is in how this works with Bludhaven. Dick can both run Spyral, or whatever spy agency DC uses going forward, while still hanging his hat in Bludhaven (or Gotham, Metropolis, Opal, Vanity, Keystone, Jump, or any other city). Narratively, we'd want more variety than just "spy" stories and a home city would easily provide that. If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel! :p

I don't blame bludhaven for sucking, I blame dc and fans for trying to sell me on bludhaven being something it's not.Which is something important and relevant to nightwings character and growth.

Bludhaven should be a entertainment center. Many casinos and maybe even movie and network places. Heck it gives reasons for Nightwing to maybe go to one of the entertainment or casino places given his background. I mean certain people have used their status for drugs and human trafficking. Heck to give a reason for magic users to enter maybe people like Zatanna could be a center act. I mean if Batman can deal in magic why not Dick? He has raven and a Donna. Why not have Dick have to deal with a few magic crimes? Any ideas for a story line like that? Any villains that could be rewritten to deal with magic or connections?

I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham.

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286094]If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel! :p[/QUOTE]

Can't he just do that in Gotham? I mean it is where his friends are family are. If he is dating Barbara again that is where she lives, so he is going to keep going back to Gotham anyway. It's natural to return to that city given his deep ties to it and the people there. It just feels redundant to have this whole other city that has none of those deep ties that acts as a watered down Gotham just to tell these smaller street level stories that have to drag pieces from Gotham to tell them anyway.

I mean if you have Bludhaven then Dick is basically splitting his time up between a lot of locations. You have Bludhaven, Gotham that he will still be used in, and the Teen Titans who are probably going to be located in NYC or JL Headquarters (maybe even Gotham because of the new Titans TV series season) and do some globetrotting for them. Bludhaven seems so useless compared to these other locations. I also want Spyral stories and Dick to do globetrotting separate from the Titans. When you line all this up it just feels like Bludhaven is the weakest link and is completely unnecessary.