Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=astro@work;4843348]I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson. :mad:[/QUOTE]

Expect Damian to take over as Nightwing. I genuinely don't think DC will respect Dick enough to let him have anything anymore.

Expect Damian to take a sudo-antagonist role counter to the new Batman. They aren’t going to want any threats to their new Batman’s legitimacy, and passing over Bruce’s blood son is too much potential drama for them to ignore.

Yeah, to have Luke be Batman they have to write out Damian. So either they will have Damian be missing or turn him into some kind of villain/antagonist where he obviously can't be Batman. Those two feel the most likely. Which I guess the end of Doomsday Clock set up with that little text box saying something about Superman needing Bruce's daughter to help save Damian. That was left open enough to mean whatever they want it to be. Saving Damian from himself or from some actual threat.

Dick will have to be written out for 5G for Luke too. They need a reason why he won't be Batman if Bruce isn't Batman. My guess is that Dick might be retired and just stuck in Bludhaven. Jurgens is already doing that storyline about Dick being mayor of Bludhaven in his Batman Beyond run. That would be such an easy thing to bring over from that series. Maybe it would be too obvious. They also might just kill Dick off and write him out that way leaving the Nightwing identity open. If you kind of look at 5G as some Elseworlds-type of thing Dick being killed off is pretty common, lol. I just can't imagine that if Dick is going to be in his 40s or 50s that he would just be running around as Nightwing if someone like Luke is Batman.

Ugh, just when I thought things have become more or less stable and get back into comics - this happens.

They can’t keep treating Dick or any other major character like this without giving them a break. It’s hard to read about constant misery, suffering and tension of the characters you like.

And Dick sure earned his place in DC at this point. I hope his possible sidelining is not solely because of Luke, because that doesn’t look great for me..

[QUOTE=Blue22;4844223]I'd probably also take out the time he bent to Batman's will and disbanded the Titans. That was not a good look for him. And was him freaking out at Starfire's "In name only" political marriage canon again with the rest of the NTT stuff? Cuz I'd retcon that foolishness out too.[/QUOTE]
NTT's existence is canon, but not everything is. The arcs showing Donna and Lilith's origins weren't even still canon after the Crisis, let alone in Rebirth.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4843560]The book will just not exist if Dick isn't Nightwing. They didn't make Tim the new Nightwing when Dick became Batman and Damian became Robin, they made him Red Robin and ended the Nightwing title.[/QUOTE]

I believe the title Nightwing actually went to Chris Kent/Lor Zod.

[QUOTE=Badou;4844444]

They also might just kill Dick off and write him out that way leaving the Nightwing identity open. [/QUOTE] They could always have Damian kill him. Or better yet, have dick hit his head on a rock and die while Damian is attacking him. What was the name of that video game?

I don't know why Damian would kill him. Damian cares about Nightwing too much to kill him. Nightwing might need a new story. If they are going with 5G. What new thing can they do with Nightwing? Instead of replacing him. Maybe doing a Teen TItan storyline with Nightwing?

I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.

[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4844785]I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.[/QUOTE]

Oh my bad.

About in the things you retcon what would you replace them with? It can be from Dick’s comic history or from outside media with him in it.

[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4844785]I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy how Dick comes back in that universe, fwiw.

Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?

[QUOTE=cc008;4844839]I enjoy how Dick comes back in that universe, fwiw.[/QUOTE]

I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4845064]Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?[/QUOTE]

Impossible to know. We don't have the kind of data we'd need to even make a guess. But he seems to be popular enough; his book is rarely in cancellation and is (when Ric isn't happening) a consistent mid-tier seller that outsells and out-lasts most anything that isn't League related (or Harley, gods that woman makes money!). He's used in a lot of larger media stuff as either Robin or Nightwing. He's maybe not A-list in the truest sense of the word, but I feel like he's easily B-list.

One thing that's hard to separate is Dick's popularity as his own character, and the popularity of Robin. Robin is of course, a much, much bigger brand with global recognition, while Dick as Nightwing is not on that level. But without any kind of evidence of any kind, just looking at the play Dick gets (cartoons, live action, etc etc etc) I don't think popularity with fans is his problem. Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.

[QUOTE=Ascended;4845982]Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, [B]as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.[/B][/QUOTE]

Puns aside, among hardcore comic book fans, most people like him. Even those of other comic book companies. Even more casual fans of say, BTAS, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Titans, and Batman 66 all like him (though, the Titans run has had some stuff that made people call Dick, well, a dick).

But it does seem that it's management in the comic books side that has problems with him. And one in particular has even gloated abut the awful things done to Dick, so, yeah.

Why does Dc have issues with him?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4846206]Why does Dc have issues with him?[/QUOTE]

Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."

[QUOTE=Ascended;4845982]I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.[/QUOTE]

He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.

Yeah, don't Deadman and Dick have similar origins, both being circus acrobats? They were even paired up in a Flashpoint tie-in.

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4846378]Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."[/QUOTE]

No he ages batman supes and wonderwoman dot age normal, but Bruce is a man who they won’t put down

[QUOTE=Ascended;4845982]I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4846409]He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this ^

Death was stupid, but in the comic by Taylor, this is how he comes back. Somewhat makes up for his death. Not totally, but *shrug*

DC Collectibles has announced it's latest products - and that it's reverting back to it's original name DC Direct. And among them is Nightwing!
[url]https://www.newsarama.com/49133-dc-collectibles-reverts-back-to-their-legacy-name-dc-direct-reveals-2020-toyfair-line-up.html[/url]
[img]https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzYvNDUwL29yaWdpbmFsL0RDX0Rlc2lnbmVyX1Nlcmllc19OaWdodHdpbmdfSmltX0xlZV9NaW5pLmpwZz8xNTgyMjk2Njc4[/img]

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4846206]Why does Dc have issues with him?[/QUOTE]

DC considers the Justice League to be the main characters of DCU, and as the main character, they want them to be in their prime. Middle-age, experienced, inspiring, strong and relatable.

The Titans generation, including Dick, are younger versions of them. Same power set, but with more relatable characterization. They're friends who grew up together, so they have more fun, warmth, and friendship. They're YA stories' main characters, and YA is VERY popular in other media. Hunger Games, Twilight, Teen Wolf, Riverdale, Supernatural... note that while most of those stories are set in high school, the actors are the hot 20-something, even 30. The type of their target audience, teens, fantasize.

So they're a threat to DC's concept of main characters, and they did try to make the League generations young and hot in New 52 and get rid of the Titans except for the one they can't. Superman's 25, Wonder Woman's 23, Catwoman's 23, and Batman's only 31 because they have to accommodate the popular Robins, if Robins aren't popular, you can bet they would've made him 25 too, but 31 is young enough. Some of YA actors are 30-somethings.

Note that the League as main characters work just fine if the Titans don't exist, like the Justice League cartoon, because it's not like the League isn't friendly to each other or not relatable... but Titans are defined by growing up together, something the League never have.

So when it comes to warmth and friendship the League will look colder and more professional by comparison, which is a double-edged sword too. Titans are taken less seriously than the League because they're more like a clubhouse in comparison. Also, sometimes DC themselves like to play this League vs Titans thing as professional vs friendship. That's your own fault, dude. Make something else.

There's also the branding, and trying to maintain that brand. The League is the most known characters of DC if you don't count the Batfam, and they should be the focal point of DCU if you wanna be fair to the general DCU superhero, otherwise, you just use all the Batfam, but being the face is not the same as being the most likable. The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more.

DC wants them to be both the symbol, and the relatable, but relatability isn't exactly something you can arrange, especially the way they did it. They made the sidekicks grew up, realize they're more likable once they grew up, and then try to force those elements into the older gen. I cringed the first time I saw The Flash in tv series and Snyder's League movie because the actors and performers are so obviously more fitting to be Wally.

...and I don't know how to end this overly long tangent so there.

[img]https://img.purch.com/o/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzYvNDYyL29yaWdpbmFsL0RDX0Vzc2VudGlhbHNfTmlnaHR3aW5nX05ldzUyLmpwZw==[/img]

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4847238]The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more.
[/QUOTE]Used to. Harry and Meghan recently quit their royal duties, which many see as a betrayal. That will have hurt his popularity, big time. William and Kate are the hot commodity now.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4846206]Why does Dc have issues with him?[/QUOTE]

On top of what others have said, I think DC not only considers the NTT totally redundant, but can't figure out what role they *could* fill. The League are the biggest and best heroes, the ones you hope show up when things get bad. Then there's the sidekicks, Tim and Conner (and now Damian and Jon) and their role as "kids learning the ropes" or at least "young heroes short of their prime" is a well entrenched troupe. Everyone in comics are familiar with sidekicks.

So where does that leave the NTT? They can't be the best of the best because the League are the bigger, more popular IP's and can't be replaced. They can't still be sidekicks, because we've got younger characters who fill that role, and the NTT are too experienced to really sell the "young heroes not yet in their prime" very easily. So what do you do with Dick and Donna and Wally, etc? Where do they fit in DC's very strictly structured and enforced pantheon? DC can't figure out that answer.

And DC may also consider these guys a potential threat to the sales of the big guns (Im just guessing on that). Way back in the day NTT was DC's best seller, and those heroes are younger, hotter versions of the League. What could happen if they put an A-list creative team on Nightwing, or a NTT reunion book caught a second wind? Would Batman readers drop the Batman title for a quality Nightwing? Or the League for a good Titans reunion title? That could cost DC money. That's even more true for Wally, who *did* replace his mentor for over twenty years and built a large fanbase of his own.

So Dick became the new Deadman in Injustice, huh? That's.....kinda cool, in its way.

Oh hey, Dropkickjake, if you see this your inbox is full man, I can't send you a reply.

I mean any good writer can make Titans work. If anything can’t they work more like mentors? That’s one of the reasons why they didn’t want to be sidekicks anymore.

They've tried the "mentors" thing with the Titans before, and haven't had much success with it. Which is fine by me, I don't see "teaching" as a viable long-term choice for the NTT. Honestly, almost nothing seems to move the sales needle though. Johns was able to make the book sell back in 00's, but that was in the height of his popularity and other than that it seems like the book sells what it'll sell and damn little makes a difference.

Dick actually has the same kind of problem. Not as badly, but it takes a lot to make his book sell more (or less) than its average. The Grayson series sold noticeably better at first, and I maintain that if the title had remained "Nightwing" and if Dick had worn his costume instead of a generic covert/paramilitary outfit it would've sold even more. But outside of A+ (or F-) effort like that, Dick sells what he'll sell. Not the worst thing in the world at all, but it seems like DC has yet to find the magic pitch that'll send these IP's into higher rankings.

[url]https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1230965218693525504?s=19[/url]

Dan Didio has left DC. Dick might finally get a chance to thrive

Dan DiDio is no longer with DC

I somehow think this is relevant to this thread

[url]https://www.newsarama.com/49148-dan-didio-exits-dc.html[/url]

Lol the first Tweets are all best wishes except Rob Liefeld (of course)

I here dan dido destroyer of dreams is out

So should the Titans no existed ? Or be something else? I don’t think they should be part of the JL. I mean there are other hero groups that existed without the JL

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4848029]So should the Titans no existed ? Or be something else? I don’t think they should be part of the JL. I mean there are other hero groups that existed without the JL[/QUOTE]

Titans should be their own thing, with their own adventures, and [I]not[/I] under the purview of the League.

The League deal with global and extraterrestrial threats, so maybe the Titans should just be smaller scale? There's a reason the Justice League dropped the "of America" part of their name - maybe that's a niche Dick and co can fill? And yeah, the League should be allies, but not their superiors. They should be equals.

Textless preview for Nightwing #70.
[url]https://www.newsarama.com/49146-does-the-joker-bring-back-dick-grayon.html[/url]

[spoil]Sap vs Joker[/spoil]

So maybe the Titans are the backups? So how would we need to make titans their own things and not a rip off of JL.

[QUOTE=Lady Nightwing;4848004][url]https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1230965218693525504?s=19[/url]

Dan Didio has left DC. Dick might finally get a chance to thrive[/QUOTE]

holy wait wut. wait. wut. am I excited about DC Comics again?

Remember back when we were talking about the situation with Dick and I pointed out that, if Didio's personal bias really was the reason Dick has been treated so poorly, all we'd need is someone above him to notice and make a call?

It seems the call has been made and Didio is out as co-publisher.

This is the opportunity I was talking about. Let's see what happens when the dust settles, and who replaces Dan and who else from the current management (Lee, Harras, etc) remain.

I'm not going to celebrate Didio leaving. For all his flaws and failed efforts, he wasn't 100% bad, nor is he a monster. And he was, if nothing else, a fan. But this might be when we put to the test all of our claims about Dick as a viable property worthy of investment and effort. I would imagine if AT&T has anything to say about it, the new person will look at larger media success to inform the comics, and Dick's successes there might be what we've been waiting for. But if that person decides the secondary names aren't worth the effort? We may end up missing the days of Didio, when Dick got subpar creators but was still at least around.

Too soon to celebrate....but you can smell the opportunity in the air. If any of you follow AT&T or WB on social media, this is the time to get real f*cking vocal about Nightwing. We show our support right now, as loud as we can, in the hopes that it reaches the right ears and they recognize what we believe; that Nightwing can be more than just a Robin.

I'm not a fan of Didio. I'm not sad he is gone at all, but just because he is gone I don't think things are suddenly going to get better for Dick's character. People like Didio obviously didn't like legacy characters like Dick and didn't understand their appeal once they got older, but there are still serious issues that go beyond just him. In story things like Bludhaven still being a creative wasteland that Dick is unfortunately stuck in, but there weren't a ton of big creators knocking at the door to use Dick for anything, even in books outside the DCU where they probably had more freedom to use him, so things might just stay as they are and it won't bring about major changes. I really have no idea.

But the comic division at DC Comics is just a small part of the AT&T/WB company. How Dick is used in the comics is so insignificant to them on the grand scale of things. So it could be very likely that Didio stepping down or being removed is just the larger WB company wanting to streamline things more and the comic division might become even less significant. It is hard to say.

Dick current problems is not just a Didio issue, Ric seemed more a result of Bob Harras then Didio even. They have to right the ship that is DC in general now. When and if that trickles down to Dick we will see i guess, but it probably won't be for a while. DC is clearly undergoing some big internal shifts. Which who know where they are going with that.

Yeah, we don't exactly know who decided to prolong Ric this long when they at first was not even sure about it... or do we?

Lodbell said he was the one that got Ric to last longer and campaigned for it. He originally said it was supposed to last 3 or so issues but he thought the Ric story could be like Dick's Oracle story and wanted it to last a lot longer. Then when that failed immediately he left the book as soon as he could, lol.

But Ric was a good way to write Dick out of the other ongoing stories at that time. This is just speculation but after Lobdell got Ric to last longer the character was stuck in a awkward position of these big Batman and JL stories going on at the same time. Obviously if Dick came back quickly then you would think that he would have been inserted into King's Batman story, Wally's HiC story, or Snyder's JL story which all involved Dick's close friends and allies going though these major things. Dick would look like an awful person if he just ignored everything that was going on. Extending the Ric story just meant they could have an easy excuse to ignore Dick's character while these other stories were going on. That is why I think it lasted so long at least. As for who approved all this I guess it was the main editors, guess the Batman ones, at the time along with Lobdell.

Right, but who is listening to Lobdell in the first place. Thats what says Harras to me. Didio positions himself as a lighting rod, but Harras is the EiC. Things like Ric and the day to day story directions is under his and his editors purview.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4848344]Right, but who is listening to Lobdell in the first place. Thats what says Harras to me. Didio positions himself as a lighting rod, but Harras is the EiC. Things like Ric and the day to day story directions is under his and his editors purview.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah. Harras and Lobdell are friends, right? Old 90s Marvel buddies?
By the way, I was surprised when I read the Age of Apocalypse issues by Lobdell because his writing sounds exactly the same.