Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5283365]Bludhaven worth is something that come up here tri annually at least and I think I have been here a few years now. Yes it will never be Gotham and it will never be Metropolis bus so what. I don’t know what green arrow or flash city is and I don’t care. It’s his turf and his home under his watch. He orange have to share it with 24 other heroes like Spider-Man does NYC or even daredevil in Hell’s Kitchen. Bludhaven was one of his strongest runs location. Hell at even rebirth while a bit slow still engaging. Consistency is good.

He can still have globe trottin space flying Diane soon bending stories with the Titans. All while maintaining his own base just like Batman and Superman.

More importantly we will finally have corporate synergy. People who read Nightwing are gonna see him on tv doing the same on tv and vice versa. Even better this season will feature Barbra as Oracle just as this new storyline will. Taylor could be creating an outline for a potential spin-off for them.[/QUOTE]

The core problem is that Bludhaven will never be Dick's home no matter how hard DC tries to say it is. Gotham and Halys Circus will always take precedence over it. As much as people want to act like Bludhaven is this super important place for his character it really isn't. It's completely hollow. Dick isn't from Bludhaven, he wasn't raised there, none of his family is from there, none of his friends or allies are from there, none of his major love interests are from there, none of his teams or organizations he is part of are there, he has no job tying him there, he didn't created the Robin identity there, and he didn't even create the Nightwing identity there. These are foundational problems with the idea of Bludhaven. How can people act like it is his home and isn't a completely flawed concept when it is missing every single story element that would make it his home? It's ridiculous.

I mean 25 years later and you still have these major problems. Putting a fresh coat of paint on it or making it more like Vegas doesn't address any of these core issues. They have to constantly drag things from Gotham to make it useable because Bludhaven on its own offers nothing. Every single other character that has a solo and is anchored to some city has actual ties to that city. A Flash in Central City, or a Green Arrow in Star City, have actual deep ties and bonds to it, but Dick has none of that in Bludhaven. People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless.

It's just a poor, watered down attempt to make him into a Batman, Spider-man, or Daredevil-lite character by filling that generic version of what Gotham, Hell's Kitchen, or NYC is supposed to be for their respective heroes, but Dick isn't like those other heroes. The whole "a hero needs a city to protect" is such a dated idea that really limits Dick as a character when other characters already fill that role better than he ever will. He's had a very unique hero journey and to force him into some shallow, generic mold of a city that he has no real ties to just so he can do his best Daredevil impersonation and work some boring normal job stunts his character. I'll never understand why people want that. They should focus on the things that make him unique and enhance those and raise that value up rather than try and keep him stuck in some uninspired box. He was a kid that grew up in a traveling circus, became Robin to work with Batman, created a team full of teenage superheroes, and then became Nightwing. Nothing about his character suggests that he would be at home anchored to some city he has no ties to. It's the complete opposite of what his character suggest he would want.

All it really offers is to be a good holding cell for when DC wants get his character out of the way like with the Ric story. It was easier to just shove him off to Bludhaven where he can be ignored, or use it as an excuse when they want to say he couldn't do something because he had his stupid Bludhaven "responsibilities", but there is also the issue of splitting his character between three locations. Bludhaven, Gotham, and globetrotting. It's not good storytelling to split his character up between three settings like this, as you end up spreading the stories too thin, and between the three of them Bludhaven is the most useless by far. Dick should be a global hero on the move with Gotham being the place he calls home and returns to when he can. It is so much simpler and streamlined while letting his "home" actually be a place he has deep ties and actual affection for.

Also as for that "corporate synergy" the next season of Titans takes place in Gotham. Not Bludhaven. Also you know what Bludhaven is in the Young Justice show? It is a suburb of Gotham not its own city. So even in other media they get how unnecessary Bludhaven is as an actual city, but the comics can't figure it out.

Okay, I think I got all the Bludhaven stuff out of my system for now, lol.

Okay so the summary, as I suspected after paying attention for a while when it comes to Bludhaven is basically "I want something better/more for Dick" vs "It's good enough"

Yeah I agree with badou. Dick should be out and about with the other superheroes in the dcu instead of just another bat.

Fans want nightwing to be an A-lister well A-listers don't do small scale. Go big or go home.

[QUOTE=Badou;5283440]
People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless. [/QUOTE]

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I do think it's important to remember that the Dixon run is where a lot of people grew to love Nightwing, especially AS NIGHTWING (as opposed to Robin). It's a very significant part of the character's publishing history.

Also, someone doesn't need to be born in a city to adopt it and call it home.

Actually Bludhaven exist so that they can try to emulate a formula made popular by the A-listers. I can take it or leave it at this point, it’s a trap, but it’ll come down to whether Taylor falls into it or not.

[QUOTE=Mr. White;5281719]Not sure about the use of a Zucco (i.e. I'd prefer something "new" and not tied to history) but Snyder managed to make it work in The Black Mirror so let's see.

To be fair, over half the people on this Forum could have been introduced as the new writer and it'll still be welcome following the Ric debacle.[/QUOTE]

I co-sign on all.

If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.

[QUOTE=Batman Begins 2005;5283577]If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.[/QUOTE]

Was that Batman Annual the Alfred story? I do remember really liking that.

That Alfred annual was the issue that made me fine with him dying.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5283482]Okay so the summary, as I suspected after paying attention for a while when it comes to Bludhaven is basically "I want something better/more for Dick" vs "It's good enough"[/QUOTE]

I just fine it incredibly frustrating. It's like watching someone try and fill up a bucket of water with a giant hole in the bottom of the bucket. Sure, if you fill it up fast enough maybe you can get the water to the top, but you wasted so much water in the process doing that. Maybe every once in a while there will be a decent Bludhaven story arc, but you just wasted so much time and effort writing in a setting that doesn't work. I just don't get it.

[QUOTE=Hcmarvel;5283567]I don't really have a dog in the fight but I do think it's important to remember that the Dixon run is where a lot of people grew to love Nightwing, especially AS NIGHTWING (as opposed to Robin). It's a very significant part of the character's publishing history.

Also, someone doesn't need to be born in a city to adopt it and call it home.[/QUOTE]

I just think it is a false equivalence to think that because Dixon used Bludhaven in Dick's first solo book that means it is somehow deeply important to his character. I think Dick's best solo stories happened outside of Bludhaven personally.

And Dick is a fictional character, so "home" for him really doesn't work the same as a real person. A home setting needs to have actual utility and the capabilities to produce interesting stories from that utility. Typically you can classify "home" into two categories, even for a real person too. They are the place you were born and/or raised and also where you friends and family are. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that for Dick. So that doesn't work, and next home can be a place where you build a new life for yourself. That also doesn't work because after 25 years of Bludhaven stories Dick and every writer on his book has failed to build anything in Bludhaven that you would classify as a "life". So I don't see how it can be his home when it is missing any actual story elements that would make it work as a home for him. I think it is an extremely flawed concept for all those reasons I mentioned at the top of my previous long post. Bludhaven is missing all those crucial elements a hero needs to form an actual bond with their city. Without them it will always comes off as hollow.

Final and Variant Covers. No more batsymbol behind his logo.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ydbjej5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/55GtNcV.jpg[/IMG]

"Oh wait theres good news?"

Don't know tom taylor from adam, but if he's "one of the most exciting talents at DC," I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I will say, he is apparently choosing to use a lot of things that make me a bit skeptical. I actually like the Dick/Babs idea, but it is very rarely done in a way where both of them look positive. Zucco mayor... meh? Bludhaven is fine. I do think it's "his" city, whether it is made in his image or not. Wonder if Taylor is going to try to make his own version of Bludhaven, go with a previous version (festering crime pit/atlantic city/tech weirdness), or just make it sort of an "any city, USA" feel.

"Had a bunch of people asking and, yes, this is Nightwing's new logo. No Batman symbol behind it. All him." - Tom Taylor's Twitter
[ATTACH=CONFIG]103311[/ATTACH]
Okay.
Okay.
I'm canceling my 5 years minimum of no involving Nightwing crossover/event boycott that alters his story/support cast.
It's now back to just 1 year.

As someone who fell off the wagon after Humphries, these news are exciting!

I'm happy with the Bludhaven setting, my problem is with Barbara...I'm supposing Taylor wants to make a modern "entry point" for Nightwing, something that can be used in other media, so I'm expecting a more "back to basics" approach. Hopefully it's more like Seeley and less like Jurgens.

Such a small batch of relaunches in March, I'm sure we'll see more in April with Aquaman, Batgirls, etc

But nice to see Dick make that first cut in March with an A list team.

[QUOTE=BloodOps;5284380]Such a small batch of relaunches in March, I'm sure we'll see more in April with Aquaman, Batgirls, etc

But nice to see Dick make that first cut in March with an A list team.[/QUOTE]

Andrea Shea commented about this in twitter. It seems there is no plans for an Aquaman solo in soon time.

[url]https://mobile.twitter.com/whatthe_shea/status/1328748319233871872[/url]

I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.

That's his best logo in a long time. In fact it may be my favorite. That trade dress looks great overall, to be honest.

Despite all the talk of home, Blüdhaven is called an adopted city in the official solicitation, which feels very self-aware. I still have hope that Taylor will let Dick branch out of Blüdhaven after the first arc. And who knows to what mobs the Zuccos have ties by now?

I actually think Humphries utilized Blüdhaven the best. The Judge was tied to Blüdhaven in a unique way, and Humphries didn't forget the Las Vegas vibe Seeley introduced while also incorporating why Blüdhaven is so depressing to its citizens (Guppy). Dixon's and Grayson's Blüdhaven mostly worked, at least for me, because Dick infiltrated the police and because he had an apartment with a supporting cast that seemed to matter even if it was "just" Nancy and Amygdala.

The logo is perfect.

Edit: It's totally too early to say this but the cover is a great cover for an omnibus.

[QUOTE=Avi;5284460]Despite all the talk of home, Blüdhaven is called an adopted city in the official solicitation, which feels very self-aware. I still have hope that Taylor will let Dick branch out of Blüdhaven after the first arc. And who knows to what mobs the Zuccos have ties by now?

I actually think Humphries utilized Blüdhaven the best. The Judge was tied to Blüdhaven in a unique way, and Humphries didn't forget the Las Vegas vibe Seeley introduced while also incorporating why Blüdhaven is so depressing to its citizens (Guppy). Dixon's and Grayson's Blüdhaven mostly worked, at least for me, because Dick infiltrated the police and because he had an apartment with a supporting cast that seemed to matter even if it was "just" Nancy and Amygdala.

The logo is perfect.

Edit: It's totally too early to say this but the cover is a great cover for an omnibus.[/QUOTE]

It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster

[QUOTE=dropkickjake;5284198]"Oh wait theres good news?"

Don't know tom taylor from adam, but if he's "one of the most exciting talents at DC," I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I will say, he is apparently choosing to use a lot of things that make me a bit skeptical. I actually like the Dick/Babs idea, but it is very rarely done in a way where both of them look positive. Zucco mayor... meh? Bludhaven is fine. I do think it's "his" city, whether it is made in his image or not. Wonder if Taylor is going to try to make his own version of Bludhaven, go with a previous version (festering crime pit/atlantic city/tech weirdness), or just make it sort of an "any city, USA" feel.[/QUOTE]

I got no issue with using a Zucco (as you know from our pitch discussions!). If Dick has a classic rival who's well positioned to be his archnemesis, it's the family who put him on the path of the vigilante. I mean, it's either the Zuccos or Blockbuster, and the Zuccos are, at least, directly tied to Dick and his origin and not simply a D-list Bat villain who got upgraded for Nightwing.

Babs I'm not thrilled by but if Taylor can make it work, okay. Bludhaven is fine, but I expect, nay, demand! that Dick not be stuck there and still gets to explore and go on wandering adventures. Bludhaven is fine as his base of operations but any hero worth their salt does a fair amount of travel and Dick should be possessed of a wanderlust to rival Superman's.

But all in all I have high hopes that this will be the best Nightwing we've seen in a long, long time. Even the fact that his logo is his own, and not sporting a Bat on it, seems like a quality choice that tells us a lot about this approach to the character.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5284424]I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.[/QUOTE]

I would expect the Batgirls story to be picked up in the Urban Legends anthology or to be part of the rotating back ups in Batman or Detective.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5284496]It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster[/QUOTE]

That's true. I too thought it would only be an announcement poster. The simple but powerful black, white, and blue also hits differently. It's a very Nightwing combo and already appealed to me when the initial Rebirth cover was revealed.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5284074]That Alfred annual was the issue that made me fine with him dying.[/QUOTE]
Do you mind explaining why?
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5284424]I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.[/QUOTE]
I think Batman is for Babs as Oracle along with Steph and Cass as Batgirls while this book will be for Babs as Batgirl.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5284496]It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster[/QUOTE]

It's almost as if cool, charismatic and confidant was the best take for Dick all along. :p

Just give him some dad joke zingers that are equal parts awful and funny and you have quintessential Dick Grayson.

[QUOTE=Robanker;5284837]It's almost as if cool, charismatic and confidant was the best take for Dick all along. :p

Just give him some dad joke zingers that are equal parts awful and funny and you have quintessential Dick Grayson.[/QUOTE]

Omigosh if anyone thinks Dick is bad at puns wait till he reaches dad jokes. He'll be insufferable, especially if the kid's Damian.

[QUOTE=Claude;5283611]Was that Batman Annual the Alfred story? I do remember really liking that.[/QUOTE]

That's the one, Father's Day.

[QUOTE=Batman Begins 2005;5284921]That's the one, Father's Day.[/QUOTE]

Ah, thanks - yeah, liked that a lot. One of the ones where I went back to check who'd written it when I'd finished, just to make a note.


Snyder's said on Twitter today, btw, that he still has "a couple" of DC projects for next year in among his stepping-back and focus on Creator Owned stuff - so Nightwing: Parabola is hopefully still a go.

I hope
Red x can work under Dick enough to make a transition from titans to Bat character.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5284956]I hope
Red x can work under Dick enough to make a transition from titans to Bat character.[/QUOTE]

I'm really curious about Teen Titans Academy... The solicit confirms what we knew (with bonus Shazam) - NTT training new characters, one of whom will become Red X.

Have we talked about how to square this with the Justice League variant cover, where there's a team of Nightwing, Donna, Beast Boy and the remainder of the recently finished Teen Titans book?

[url]https://twitter.com/TBonvillain/status/1339732483173134337[/url]

My guess is either the "who turns out to be Red X" story is only the one arc, and that sees the rest of the new characters written out by the end... Or there's a second Titans title coming?

Also, I'm catching up after having been out of the loop for a bit - still not feeling Tynion's "Batman" run, but #104 delivering it's Ghost Maker exposition through Dick via Robin flashbacks (original costume!) and Spyral references was appreciated. Along with the casual suggestion that all of Bruce's "never talks to a living soul about this" secrets have an "except for Dick" qualifier - and that Dick will do his own follow-up on things like that.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5284890]Omigosh if anyone thinks Dick is bad at puns wait till he reaches dad jokes. He'll be insufferable, especially if the kid's Damian.[/QUOTE]

Alongside Peter Parker, I would argue Dick's always been making dad jokes. :P

It's part of the charm, really. Dad jokes can still be funny, even if they're groaners.

[QUOTE=Claude;5284945]Ah, thanks - yeah, liked that a lot. One of the ones where I went back to check who'd written it when I'd finished, just to make a note.


Snyder's said on Twitter today, btw, that he still has "a couple" of DC projects for next year in among his stepping-back and focus on Creator Owned stuff - so Nightwing: Parabola is hopefully still a go.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome. I did the same as you. Great story.

If Parabola comes out in 2021 too that would be amazing. But it probably makes sense for there to be some time between FS and Parabola because they have a similar premise.

I still don't know what to think of TTA. That being said there is potential to establish new meaningful relationships.

[QUOTE=Claude;5284989]Also, I'm catching up after having been out of the loop for a bit - still not feeling Tynion's "Batman" run, but #104 delivering it's Ghost Maker exposition through Dick via Robin flashbacks (original costume!) and Spyral references was appreciated. Along with the casual suggestion that all of Bruce's "never talks to a living soul about this" secrets have an "except for Dick" qualifier - and that Dick will do his own follow-up on things like that.[/QUOTE]

That sounds good. Care to elaborate on the Spyral references? :D

[QUOTE=Avi;5285371]
That sounds good. Care to elaborate on the Spyral references? :D[/QUOTE]

It's not major, but it's nice to have it there - a lot of what Dick tells Barbara/the audience about Ghost Maker and his current situation is what he learned by looking him up in Spyral's files when he was with them.

In fairness to him, Tynion does a reasonable job of "Ghost Maker has always been a thing - you just didn't see him before". So Batman and Robin run into him briefly in the early years, spiking Dick's curiosity - Dick is also the only one aware that Bruce attempted to contact him for "Batman Incorporated" but it didn't go well.

Speaking of spyral I hope that spyral and dick's connection to it isn't done. With bendis's upcoming checkmate/leviathan book (tiger and dr.netz are there) it would be a cool way for nightwing to have a larger role in the dcu with his solo in bludhaven. Something for dick outside of both batman and titans, this way everyone gets something bludhaven, spyral and titans all at the same time.

I'll give babs a chance in nightwing but does she have to be batgirl and oracle? Would've love if steph had the batgirl role and babs had oracle. But babs gets both roles and steph going back to limbo.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5285456]Speaking of spyral I hope that spyral and dick's connection to it isn't done. With bendis's upcoming checkmate/leviathan book (tiger and dr.netz are there) it would be a cool way for nightwing to have a larger role in the dcu with his solo in bludhaven. Something for dick outside of both batman and titans, this way everyone gets something bludhaven, spyral and titans all at the same time.

I'll give babs a chance in nightwing but does she have to be batgirl and oracle? Would've love if steph had the batgirl role and babs had oracle. But babs gets both roles and steph going back to limbo.[/QUOTE]

Spyral has no role in the dcu, they don’t do anything, no one talks about them. They are not like SHIELD

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285469]Spyral has no role in the dcu, they don’t do anything, no one talks about them. They are not like SHIELD[/QUOTE]

Bludhaven has no role in the dcu, it don't do anything , no one talks about it. It is not like GOTHAM :cool:.

The point would be nightwing building it up to take on leviathan, also play in the larger dcu. Especially with tta having him just as a classroom teacher.

The ONE TIME Blüdhaven was relevant to the DCU- Final Crisis- Dick's connection wasn't even mentioned and he played no role in the story. Hell, Tomasi's run in New York had more relevance to the greater DCU with the few throwaway lines in Blackest Night.