Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Badou;5273522]That is honestly the last thing I'd want. The Starfire romance was just as or probably even more toxic than the current Babs one when they last dated, but for some reason people act like that wasn't the case? I guess other media really overwrites what people remember of their in comic romance, but it was really bad at times. Plus I already dislike how tied down Dick is to the Titans as a franchise. I wish Dick was allowed to move on to other teams in the comics instead of constantly being dragged back to the Titans mess all the time, but that is a separate issue.

Although more than anything I just don't think Starfire is a very good character that offers much utility for stories. You can't really tell more grounded stories when Dick is dating an orange alien with fire for hair and superpowers. You are incredibly limited with what you can do and there is a reason you don't see romances like that in comics very often. Just have Starfire date Cyborg or something where they can at least be stuck in the Titans together maybe. I thought Odyssey was setting that up but it never happened, or just have her date Roy again given how "in love" they were according to Lobdell, lol.[/QUOTE]

That's not true if you can have Steve in many good stories date Diana you can have Dick dating Kori. That's a poor excuse. A good writer can make almost anything work. I mean we have big barb and Mister miracle. So it's not like Kori is off the Table. Also we have the issue of Babs just having DIck being more closer to the Batfam. We shouldn't have Dick be close all the time. With the Titans well that's what made him Nightwing. Plus JL already has Batman so they aren't going to have Dick be on JL. I mean he is more tied now to the Batfam than everything. They have taken Dick out of the Titans many times but never out of the Batfam.Starfire has had good development but things got worst when the wedding arc happened. That's the moment her character started taking a fall. If the JL can make Batman work with fighting with an alien. Than there is no reason Kori and Dick can be a couple. We also have the fact that allowed more Space Stories and a few others. Almost any good writer can make the weirdest things work. Even when they can make this.

Also her hair isn't fire. It's just regular hair. It can look like fire but that's more of energy coming from her. It's never been fire.I guess it's more of her appearance? That's not the first weird character appearance. The fact we have seen their romance can work in other media. It's not impossible. The other point to say that Both Babs and Kori really can work if you give the right writer. The whole there aren't much stories is a lie has there are comics that make the most silly things work. Babs is isolated and Dc doesn't know what to do or rather they hate her. If anything a actually love interest is needed it. We just need someone who isn't a batfam or a Titan. Someone else. Maybe being back Shawn? I'm just tired of keeping it in the family or Starfire. I know I defended her. But I love broth girls but also hate them in a sense of maybe it’s time to move on from both. Clearly Dc wants Dick to have a messy love life. So it’s best for him to be single.

I,ve been saying for a while that nightwing needs to become something different. Something not bat or titan, not babs or kori. But something new and different.

I mean in a way he has to be a paradox. For he is all of these things and not at the same times. We can’t ignore that the titans are his second home. He is willing to help his family and friends. There has to be a way to keep them while also showing he doesn’t always need to be great with the Babs or Titans. This so why I kind of want him to be single no more will they won’t they no
More Kori or babs just ignore any new girlfriend. While I want Babs or Kori. Or a new love interest. I think right now maybe Dick should be single for a bit. Maybe for now here is what we have him due. Maybe have him be a private detective using his Nightwing skills to travel the global. He did use Harley Circus has a cover to stop uncovered superhero crime ring. Why not that. We can still have from time to time his friends and family meeting but not often. We have him on his own for a while

DickBabs just exhausts me at this point in time. The last time they were written well was in the Convergence mini by Simone. And Seeley did a decent job, I guess.

DickKory has gathered a lot of goodwill mostly through other media but their few interactions in the Starfire solo and now JL have been far more satisfying to me than what they decided to do with Dick and Babs in recent times, which makes it into less of a trainwreck to me.

That being said I think the relationships work better when they are platonic. Or DC could finally make a real triangle out of them, ya know?

I too don't want any love interest for a while. All they do is take away from the story. If there even is a story. But before Seeley booted that possibility out in one of his Issues, I thought Helena and Dick would have made a good couple. Not as end goal but as a "the one who got away" type. And yes I am totally biased. Nightwing/Huntress is the first comic book I read.

If there is a solo after FS I hope the writer decides to bring some supporting cast back instead of reinventing the wheel. Who ever mandated that Rebirth had to bring Blüdhaven back never understood that Blüdhaven only lives through its characters. It's not like Gotham. Blüdhaven has no unique landmarks.

Im not saying titans and batman shouldn't be second homes for dick, im saying they shouldn't be his first. Let the nightwing solo go a few years of world building without any batman or titans. Let Dick's solo stand own his own alot more or hell as crowded as the batfamily is just send im to another franchise. Dick's all about change right.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5273647]
I've never seen the relationship as perfect, but it's one I enjoy and I think it would be nice to see it in a new modern light in the comics, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you can blame the era the stories were written in, but the relationship was really toxic. Approaching that X-Men Jean/Scott levels of toxic, haha. I know everyone points to that whole marriage story, but it was rough. Starfire marrying and sleeping with the other guy and Dick going into fits of intense rage and deep depression. Then other times where Dick gets super angry at her and is written like an asshole, and then in other situation where Dick was kind of raped by someone pretending to be Starfire and the real Starfire gets super angry at Dick for it. It was a lot. I get that hyper drama was more in style back then, but it really left a bad impression on me. Overall though I'm just over romances in general or if I had to pick then I'd prefer something new from the ground up with an already established hero.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5273682]That's not true if you can have Steve in many good stories date Diana you can have Dick dating Kori. That's a poor excuse. A good writer can make almost anything work. I mean we have big barb and Mister miracle. So it's not like Kori is off the Table. Also we have the issue of Babs just having DIck being more closer to the Batfam. We shouldn't have Dick be close all the time. With the Titans well that's what made him Nightwing. Plus JL already has Batman so they aren't going to have Dick be on JL. I mean he is more tied now to the Batfam than everything. They have taken Dick out of the Titans many times but never out of the Batfam.Starfire has had good development but things got worst when the wedding arc happened. That's the moment her character started taking a fall. If the JL can make Batman work with fighting with an alien. Than there is no reason Kori and Dick can be a couple. We also have the fact that allowed more Space Stories and a few others. Almost any good writer can make the weirdest things work. Even when they can make this.[/QUOTE]

The difference between Diana/Steve and Dick/Starfire is that Diana looks like a normal human. So she can blend into normal human society. Same with Clark and Lois. It allows them to be written into more normal situations. With Starfire she is an alien and looks like an alien so you can't really treat it the same. You rarely see romances between normal humans and super powered aliens that look non-human in stories from Marvel or DC now. I can barely think of any, and most of the ones I can are generally not set on Earth. I think it is because they are very difficult and limiting to write. With Barda and Mister Miracle they are both aliens/New Gods, so there is no real issue with them together.

I think Starfire works best flying around in space, but I don't really have any interest in reading stories about Dick in space. With how DC uses Nightwing it makes no sense for him to be in space. Then in more grounded stories that Dick works better in I don't think Starfire is really suited for them. So there is this big conflict with them together and makes a relationship difficult to write in my opinion. Then if you asked me to choose between the Batman or Titans franchises for Dick to be more apart of then I'm always pick the Batman one because of how low of an opinion I have of the Titans in the comics. I don't think Dick's generation of Titans has been written well in a Titans book since the 80s, so I don't have much desire to see him more dependent on them. But that is just how I feel about the franchise. I get that others feel it isn't a complete disaster.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5273682]Also her hair isn't fire. It's just regular hair. It can look like fire but that's more of energy coming from her. It's never been fire.I guess it's more of her appearance? That's not the first weird character appearance. The fact we have seen their romance can work in other media. It's not impossible. The other point to say that Both Babs and Kori really can work if you give the right writer. The whole there aren't much stories is a lie has there are comics that make the most silly things work. Babs is isolated and Dc doesn't know what to do or rather they hate her. If anything a actually love interest is needed it. We just need someone who isn't a batfam or a Titan. Someone else. Maybe being back Shawn? I'm just tired of keeping it in the family or Starfire. I know I defended her. But I love broth girls but also hate them in a sense of maybe it’s time to move on from both. Clearly Dc wants Dick to have a messy love life. So it’s best for him to be single.[/QUOTE]

I guess it just depends on the artist. Sometimes it is drawn like it is on fire and other times it isn't, but my point is that it is very obviously non-human looking. I personally have no interest in either Babs or Starfire. I have no real interest in any romances for Dick anymore and am fine with him just being on his own.

Now if you ask me about what I want from a romance then I'd want something fresh with an already established hero. No more original characters, civilians, or past relationships revisited. There is too much baggage with Babs and Starfire to start fresh with them which is another reason I am not interested in revisiting them. I really enjoy the early parts of a romance in a story with the two getting to know each other, romantic tension, flirting, and the early dating process. You can't really have that with Babs or Starfire with all their history. I really enjoyed the slow development with Helena in the Grayson series. Something like that is more what I'd want. With her and Dick getting to know each other for the first time since the reboot and slowly growing closer over the course of the series. It just sucks that the series had a rushed ending with the writers leaving early where all that nice development was lost.

I see your point. While I do like Babs and Kori. I do think we should have another love interest for a while. Just not right now. Let Dick be single for a while. So you think Helena is a good choice? I think one of the reasons people don't want that is she is technically Helena Wayne his sisters. I mean yes and no since she is from another earth. Also aren’t there like a few ways Helena doesn’t even have to be a Wayne. I know they did it a few times

Yea Statfire’s hair isn’t fair just an artist choice when she uses her powers to make it look that way. But I get it she looks too not human. All I’m using a good writer can make anything work. But I do think maybe we should just have him be single. If people want Babs or Dick maybe elsewhere comic series is for the best.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5273647]I like Dick and Babs but it's become too much of a constant will they/won't they thing with no development and no real satisfying reason for them to just not be together, so I'm fine with giving that a break.

Giving some love to DickxKori comics-wise would just feel refreshing. [/QUOTE]

Anything that gets Dick out of that Gotham style street level mold would be refreshing at this point. And I don't disagree; it's been a long time since Dick and Kori were in a relationship and it'd be nice to see a modern spin on that. I will never *not* support that idea, if the choice is between Kori and Babs....or Huntress, Tarantula, or any of the forgettable women who have dated Dick Grayson for a few issues.

But I think what would be even *more* refreshing is a legitimate effort to develop and explore new love interests for all three characters, something more than just some original, throwaway character that'll never last beyond the writer's time on the comic. Y'all know how I am about Power Girl and Nightwing, but in all seriousness a concerted, *real* effort to move everyone's love life forward, instead of recycling stories we've been reading for decades, would be something *truly* novel and refreshing.

[QUOTE=Badou;5273853]Maybe you can blame the era the stories were written in, but the relationship was really toxic. Approaching that X-Men Jean/Scott levels of toxic, haha. I know everyone points to that whole marriage story, but it was rough. Starfire marrying and sleeping with the other guy and Dick going into fits of intense rage and deep depression. Then other times where Dick gets super angry at her and is written like an asshole, and then in other situation where Dick was kind of raped by someone pretending to be Starfire and the real Starfire gets super angry at Dick for it. It was a lot. I get that hyper drama was more in style back then, but it really left a bad impression on me. Overall though I'm just over romances in general or if I had to pick then I'd prefer something new from the ground up with an already established hero.[/QUOTE]
Again, not denying the relationship had problems and overwrought emotional drama as it went along, but I still really got invested in it. Ditto Dick and Babs.

(Of course, I also like Scott and Jean together, so...)
[QUOTE]I think Starfire works best flying around in space, but I don't really have any interest in reading stories about Dick in space. With how DC uses Nightwing it makes no sense for him to be in space. Then in more grounded stories that Dick works better in I don't think Starfire is really suited for them. So there is this big conflict with them together and makes a relationship difficult to write in my opinion. Then if you asked me to choose between the Batman or Titans franchises for Dick to be more apart of then I'm always pick the Batman one because of how low of an opinion I have of the Titans in the comics. I don't think Dick's generation of Titans has been written well in a Titans book since the 80s, so I don't have much desire to see him more dependent on them. But that is just how I feel about the franchise. I get that others feel it isn't a complete disaster.[/QUOTE]
Starfire is never going to be stuck in space, though. She's a cosmic character but she's generally depicted as being on Earth where the action happens.

Personally I want Dick to be part of both the Batman and Titans franchises.
[QUOTE]Now if you ask me about what I want from a romance then I'd want something fresh with an already established hero. No more original characters, civilians, or past relationships revisited. There is too much baggage with Babs and Starfire to start fresh with them which is another reason I am not interested in revisiting them. I really enjoy the early parts of a romance in a story with the two getting to know each other, romantic tension, flirting, and the early dating process. You can't really have that with Babs or Starfire with all their history. I really enjoyed the slow development with Helena in the Grayson series. Something like that is more what I'd want. With her and Dick getting to know each other for the first time since the reboot and slowly growing closer over the course of the series. It just sucks that the series had a rushed ending with the writers leaving early where all that nice development was lost.[/QUOTE]
I just miss the old Helena.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5274039]Anything that gets Dick out of that Gotham style street level mold would be refreshing at this point. And I don't disagree; it's been a long time since Dick and Kori were in a relationship and it'd be nice to see a modern spin on that. I will never *not* support that idea, if the choice is between Kori and Babs....or Huntress, Tarantula, or any of the forgettable women who have dated Dick Grayson for a few issues.

But I think what would be even *more* refreshing is a legitimate effort to develop and explore new love interests for all three characters, something more than just some original, throwaway character that'll never last beyond the writer's time on the comic. Y'all know how I am about Power Girl and Nightwing, but in all seriousness a concerted, *real* effort to move everyone's love life forward, instead of recycling stories we've been reading for decades, would be something *truly* novel and refreshing.[/QUOTE]
I don't mind Dick in Gotham, but that's beside the point :p.

I think the problem is that writers have tried to invest in original love interests for all three of them and it just hasn't worked in the long-term. Babs has now had a slew of forgettable boyfriends and Kori had...Roy and that police officer's brother from her solo book? I don't think the writers weren't trying to do a genuine romantic development, it just didn't make any sizeable impact (as has been the case with most of Dick's love interests that aren't Babs, Kori, or even Helena).

If Starfire would be a love interest it's not hard for her to always be in his comics. Like she is modeling so she isn't going to help him fight crime and a titan. There is also the question outside who would Starfire be friends with outside of Dick and Titan's? She also has to have her own life. With them giving her own cast that's just has important

[QUOTE=Frontier;5274171]
I think the problem is that writers have tried to invest in original love interests for all three of them and it just hasn't worked in the long-term. Babs has now had a slew of forgettable boyfriends and Kori had...Roy and that police officer's brother from her solo book? I don't think the writers weren't trying to do a genuine romantic development, it just didn't make any sizeable impact (as has been the case with most of Dick's love interests that aren't Babs, Kori, or even Helena).[/QUOTE]

I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly.

If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.

It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor.

Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).

[QUOTE=Ascended;5274503]I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly.

If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.

It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor.

Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn.

I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.

Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna :p.

The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing.

But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.

If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.

I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5274922]The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing.

But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.

If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.[/QUOTE]
Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5275405]Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.[/QUOTE]

Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5275419]Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.[/QUOTE]

Kori and dick exist on the same earth? Power girl is just not here. The whole super family gets together regularly powergirl is never their

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5275388]I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?[/QUOTE]
Simple! The same way other heros whi visits gotham. He's visiting so that means to you don't effect his solo (looking at you tom king). I let his solo about his story, his world etc. Just like all of the other A-listers. We already saw something like this with grayson, dick was able to visit gotham and the batfamily but still was able to have his own world and corner in the dcu with spyral.

Grayson felt like dick had his on life outside batman and in the dcu. Like he would visit the fam but moved out and on with his life. Grayson was dick moving out, nightwing is dick living in the basement.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5274617]I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn.

I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.

Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna :p.[/QUOTE]

No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5275455]No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.[/QUOTE]
Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo but it would really be down to the execution.

I got some ideas :o.

I believe nightwing should be global, the only real reason why nightwing has a city is because batman has a city. But nightwing shouldn't be batman (batman lite hurts nightwing).

So how about nightwing being the global detective! Something like instead of blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.

Nightwing could do this solo or with spyral or as his JL solo/team up missions.

VegasHaven would be dicks home base for rest, down time and resources and gear. Dick would globetrotte for missions and crime fighting. He could even have halys circus or spyral back for his globetrotting.

Nightwing: agent of spyral or JL. Globetrotting around the world to take on a international kin pin, a global court of the owls, a global organization of villains.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5275455]No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to.

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with.

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.[/QUOTE]

Yep dick has been so bat centric that the nightwing mantle came form superman and titans but love interest from superman and titans "don't fit" lol.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5275469]Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo [B]but it would really be down to the execution.[/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't everything? :)

For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run. In a Nightwing comic where he's taking down global metahuman organ traffickers, vying for a chance to sit on the Mobius Chair, and dealing with evil multiverse versions of himself, a love interest like Power Girl, Starfire, Jade, Jess Cruz, or whoever the hell, makes perfect sense.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5275488]Something like instead of blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.
.[/QUOTE]

... That's actually very good. Enough "wow, it's like the 90s again!" to carry those fans over, but instantly a different vibe and scale. Good thought!

One thing that comes up from time to time is Dick travelling as part of Haly's Circus, as in the start of Higgins' run. I have to say, as far as suspension of disbelief goes, "Nightwing only shows up in places that one circus goes, and only since that one guy started touring with them" is a tough one to swallow!

[QUOTE=Ascended;5275534]
For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run.[/QUOTE]

Ah, sometimes I wonder where we'd be by now if we'd had two years of Percy rather than the Ric storyline. He'll never be my favourite writer, but he had legitimate big plans, was gearing up to make big changes, and was doing a decent job of the "maybe Nightwing starts streetlevel but he'll scale up" comic book storytelling that Dick doesn't often get. Felt like it was cut off just as it was about to show its potential.

Oh I get that, It why I like spyral. The way to go about it is people don't know nightwings in town. The only people that knows nightwing town are the bad guys he just beat up, and they dont know halys in town. Or dick just travel on his own. Or rejoins spyral with helena or artemis crock or bette ashis partner.

[QUOTE=Claude;5275535]
Ah, sometimes I wonder where we'd be by now if we'd had two years of Percy rather than the Ric storyline. He'll never be my favourite writer, but he had legitimate big plans, was gearing up to make big changes, and was doing a decent job of the "maybe Nightwing starts streetlevel but he'll scale up" comic book storytelling that Dick doesn't often get. Felt like it was cut off just as it was about to show its potential.[/QUOTE]

I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.

That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5275593]I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.

That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade.[/QUOTE]
I think his Dick was less of a technophobe and more just not overly reliant on tech.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5275593]I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.

[B]That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade[/B].[/QUOTE]

Imo they were some of the best Nightwing Issues in the past decade. They encompass a lot of what I want to see in a Nightwing book. Globetrotting, new characters (Silencer), old characters (Flamingo), Dick on a bike :p, and the tech-magic mixture was great too. Percy definitely had plans to re-establish Dick as a well connected hero and back then his plans sounded a lot like the things Seeley wanted to do.

It's amazing how much more fun and interesting nightwing becomes when he has the entire dcu as his sandbox and isolated in a bland empty city.

As far as the fantastic themes just write the nightwing alot as a titans solo than a bat solo. Problem solved.

Nightwing #77 Preview

[url]https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-peek-preview-of-dc-comics-nightwing-77[/url]

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5275818]It's amazing how much more fun and interesting nightwing becomes when he has the entire dcu as his sandbox and isolated in a bland empty city.

As far as the fantastic themes just write the nightwing alot as a titans solo than a bat solo. Problem solved.[/QUOTE]

Sadly not if Bateditors don't want that. The only way is if he and the titans get their own editors and make a deal that Dick can be used limited in Batbooks. Other then that Nightwing should be on his own.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5275488]I got some ideas :o.

I believe nightwing should be global, the only real reason why nightwing has a city is because batman has a city. But nightwing shouldn't be batman (batman lite hurts nightwing).

So how about nightwing being the global detective! Something like instead of blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.

Nightwing could do this solo or with spyral or as his JL solo/team up missions.

VegasHaven would be dicks home base for rest, down time and resources and gear. Dick would globetrotte for missions and crime fighting. He could even have halys circus or spyral back for his globetrotting.

Nightwing: agent of spyral or JL. Globetrotting around the world to take on a international kin pin, a global court of the owls, a global organization of villains.[/QUOTE]


Agreed. To be honest that's why he could simply could get a job has a P.I or like you said using Haley's Circus to fight around the world. We do know the Court of Owls have Harley's Circus. So it would be nice if he takes them now. Yea I love Bludhaven would be more experiment city and move it out of the state like Gotham.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5273677]Depends really. I mean the Titans already have tech people. So Oracle really isn't needed. The same with JL they don't need Oracle unless the plot needs her. So it doesn't really need to be said yes Babs is smart but there are people already on a team that can also do the same job[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Babs is not a Titan, never has been. Only reason she showed up in the 1999 Titans series is because she was Dick's girlfriend.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5275556]Oh I get that, It why I like spyral. The way to go about it is people don't know nightwings in town. The only people that knows nightwing town are the bad guys he just beat up, and they dont know halys in town. Or dick just travel on his own. Or rejoins spyral with helena or artemis crock or bette ashis partner.[/QUOTE]You mention Artemis because of the Young Justice cartoon, I assume? In the comics, she's a villain.

[QUOTE=Lazurus33;5276187]Nightwing #77 Preview

[url]https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-peek-preview-of-dc-comics-nightwing-77[/url][/QUOTE]

Looks good but that was to be expected. I'm positivly surprised to see Bruce, but I won't pick it up except if the kindred spirit is one of the characters I have been missing in a Nightwing comic.

[QUOTE=Lazurus33;5276187]Nightwing #77 Preview

[url]https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-peek-preview-of-dc-comics-nightwing-77[/url][/QUOTE]

Jurgen's Dick is such a pill. Now even Christmas is a battle. The dude is just a bummer. They finally give it up and bring back Dick, and all he has him do is bitch about it. It really was just so stupid leaving this guy on the book. I don't know if he's bitter about Ric's reception or what, but i really don't understand what he's trying to accomplish by making Dick the one buzzkill to his own return.

Yea. Dick is not Bruce. To have him be like this is dumb.

One question is Dark Metal in the main universe or different ?

[QUOTE=Frontier;5275613]I think his Dick was less of a technophobe and more just not overly reliant on tech.[/QUOTE]

He’s not a technophobe he just not as inclined as Babs and Tim. That team up with Superman and he admitted that he could not reverse engineer something the way Bruce could was nice way of showing us how he differs from the rest of the bat family.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5276526]He’s not a technophobe he just not as inclined as Babs and Tim. That team up with Superman and he admitted that he could not reverse engineer something the way Bruce could was nice way of showing us how he differs from the rest of the bat family.[/QUOTE]

He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5276767]He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.[/QUOTE]
Or he's just not into digital :p.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5276767]He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.[/QUOTE]

See, I think that's perfectly valid - Percy overdid it, because he's not a subtle writer, but I think it's perfectly valid to say "Dick grew up in a circus, circuses aren't really a thing any more, so he's probably quite a Retro Person". It also does give him a bit of a USP among the Bat Family - in that people like Bruce and Tim are techy forward planners, whereas Dick is an improviser who does most of his crime fighting with two sticks.

He shouldn't be [I]ignorant[/I] of technology, but disinterested and not having it as part of his Civilian Life? That seems plausible.

[QUOTE=Claude;5276785]See, I think that's perfectly valid - Percy overdid it, because he's not a subtle writer, but I think it's perfectly valid to say "Dick grew up in a circus, circuses aren't really a thing any more, so he's probably quite a Retro Person". It also does give him a bit of a USP among the Bat Family - in that people like Bruce and Tim are techy forward planners, whereas Dick is an improviser who does most of his crime fighting with two sticks.

He shouldn't be [I]ignorant[/I] of technology, but disinterested and not having it as part of his Civilian Life? That seems plausible.[/QUOTE]

But that was not his character before that run. Not to mention he was rased by a billionaire.