Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5285484]Bludhaven has no role in the dcu, it don't do anything , no one talks about it. It is not like GOTHAM :cool:.

The point would be nightwing building it up to take on leviathan, also play in the larger dcu. Especially with tta having him just as a classroom teacher.[/QUOTE]

It does have a role it’s Nightwings home, one hero can take care of a city

Nightwing cannot run an entire spy organization by himself. It required all of DC agreeing on it and using it. They have pretty much left it in the dust.

Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5285517]The ONE TIME Blüdhaven was relevant to the DCU- Final Crisis- Dick's connection wasn't even mentioned and he played no role in the story. Hell, Tomasi's run in New York had more relevance to the greater DCU with the few throwaway lines in Blackest Night.[/QUOTE]

Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw don’t forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.

But they referenced the events of Nightwing Freefall and the new JLA protocol of holding onto superhero corpses.

Also YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham. So he's still in Gotham. Which again makes sense for him to be in.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. [B]They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell.[/B] It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget Chicago. That era was slightly better than the other examples, but it all just goes to show that it's not the city, it's the story. All those awful stories that happened in Bludhaven would have still been awful if the city had been Gotham, Vegas, NYC, London, or Shanghai. It doesn't matter what the setting is, a bad story is a bad story and calling the city something different changes nothing.

Bludhaven, like any other element of a story, is only as good as the writer. Had Dick spent the last ten-ish years getting quality writers who built on what came before instead of constantly starting over, we'd be saying that Bludhaven is as well-developed a city as Opal, Central, or Metropolis and a critical aspect of Dick's mythos. But because DC has spent so many years half-assing everything and letting writers ignore everything, the city is as poorly developed and defined as all the other aspects of Dick's setting.

Stop victim blaming the city people! It's not Bludhaven's fault the book has been bad. :p

The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285668]The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress[/QUOTE]

Depends if we change the police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5285839]Depends if we change the police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent[/QUOTE]

A role befitting a lost duck we know

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285668]The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress[/QUOTE]

The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.

I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU.

Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.

[QUOTE=Avi;5285888]The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.

I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU.

Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.[/QUOTE]
Dude I don’t even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches. It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities don’t interfere themselves it’s a location it can’t act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and it’s sole purpose can’t be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I can’t think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs can’t.

Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow, and to forgo that for more garbage Bludhaven stories is insane to me. How someone can choose Dick working some boring normal job again as a waiter, bartender, or some stupid cab diver over him saving people around the world and being involved in bigger stories is something I'll never understand.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.[/QUOTE]

Bludhaven doesn't really exist unless Dick is physically in the city. It has nothing else in it of value and is useless unless Dick is there. It does noting for his character but weight him down since Bludhaven has been used as an excuse to keep him away from things. They do use his "Bludhaven responsibilities" as a convenient excuse to explain why he isn't involved in some stories, or as a wedge in his relationships like with Barbara. 100% we will see it again in Taylor's run.

They should just go the Young Justice route and just make Bludhaven a part of Gotham as that is all it basically is now these days. It can't produce anything on its own and they have to drag things from Gotham to even create stories for it.

But I honestly can't wait for Bludhaven to fail again. It sucks more creators are going to waste their time writing stories about it, but when it fails at least everyone's argument that it isn't Bludhaven't fault, or that it isn't that bad, will become narrower and narrower where it will become even harder to stand on anymore, lol.

[QUOTE=Badou;5285991]Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow[/QUOTE]

Agreed with all of this.

The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU.

Leviathan was supposed to streamline all of that and bring it into sharper focus, with a wider influence and range (which is *partially* why it all began in Superman).

Then Didio was fired and everything got thrown into chaos and whatever Bendis had planned to do after that initial Leviathan story died....or maybe just got delayed a lot. Either way, right now all those various spy groups are dead in the water, Leviathan is still technically a major player, and this entire corner of the DCU is available for any character who can grab it and hold onto it.

And of all the heroes in DC, Dick is as well placed as any to take it as his own. He's got the experience with Spyral, not to mention the Owls, HIVE, the Wildebeest Society, and all the other secret societies and spy groups and terror organizations he's dealt with as both a Bat and a Titan. It's a niche he can call his own, he's got the skillset for it, and his personality runs counter to the morally gray, secret-laden world of spies which makes for great drama and internal conflict, without overloading him on self-doubt.

And if Nick Fury could go on adventures with the Howling Commandos while also running SHIELD, Dick can go on adventures while running Spyral. If Batman can be in three different Leagues, the Outsiders, Crisis Events, and still protect Gotham, then Dick can also find time to bust some heads while running a organization. It's not a big stretch to imagine Dick saying "Okay Tiger, you're my right hand, and I'm gonna go punch the Fearsome Five in their noses; you're in charge while I'm gone. Don't assassinate anyone I wouldn't!"

Where I disagree with my man Badou, naturally, is in how this works with Bludhaven. Dick can both run Spyral, or whatever spy agency DC uses going forward, while still hanging his hat in Bludhaven (or Gotham, Metropolis, Opal, Vanity, Keystone, Jump, or any other city). Narratively, we'd want more variety than just "spy" stories and a home city would easily provide that. If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel! :p

I don't blame bludhaven for sucking, I blame dc and fans for trying to sell me on bludhaven being something it's not.Which is something important and relevant to nightwings character and growth.

Bludhaven should be a entertainment center. Many casinos and maybe even movie and network places. Heck it gives reasons for Nightwing to maybe go to one of the entertainment or casino places given his background. I mean certain people have used their status for drugs and human trafficking. Heck to give a reason for magic users to enter maybe people like Zatanna could be a center act. I mean if Batman can deal in magic why not Dick? He has raven and a Donna. Why not have Dick have to deal with a few magic crimes? Any ideas for a story line like that? Any villains that could be rewritten to deal with magic or connections?

I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham.

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286094]If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel! :p[/QUOTE]

Can't he just do that in Gotham? I mean it is where his friends are family are. If he is dating Barbara again that is where she lives, so he is going to keep going back to Gotham anyway. It's natural to return to that city given his deep ties to it and the people there. It just feels redundant to have this whole other city that has none of those deep ties that acts as a watered down Gotham just to tell these smaller street level stories that have to drag pieces from Gotham to tell them anyway.

I mean if you have Bludhaven then Dick is basically splitting his time up between a lot of locations. You have Bludhaven, Gotham that he will still be used in, and the Teen Titans who are probably going to be located in NYC or JL Headquarters (maybe even Gotham because of the new Titans TV series season) and do some globetrotting for them. Bludhaven seems so useless compared to these other locations. I also want Spyral stories and Dick to do globetrotting separate from the Titans. When you line all this up it just feels like Bludhaven is the weakest link and is completely unnecessary.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5286149]I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham.

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.[/QUOTE]

Because they already have tied him down to Bludhaven even more. Gotham would just add more stuff with that. Besides I mean Bludhaven much like Dick have good and bad history. Plus that's why he left Gotham. Gotham reflects Bruce not Dick.Besides if anything why not let him live with the Titans in New York or San Fransisco. They want him to be a bit or Batfam and his own thing. He can't be if he is living in Gotham. They have another of the Batfam to do Nightwing's job already.

[QUOTE=Badou;5285991]
Bludhaven doesn't really exist unless Dick is physically in the city. It has nothing else in it of value and is useless unless Dick is there. It does noting for his character but weight him down since Bludhaven has been used as an excuse to keep him away from things. They do use his "Bludhaven responsibilities" as a convenient excuse to explain why he isn't involved in some stories, or as a wedge in his relationships like with Barbara. 100% we will see it again in Taylor's run.

They should just go the Young Justice route and just make Bludhaven a part of Gotham as that is all it basically is now these days. It can't produce anything on its own and they have to drag things from Gotham to even create stories for it.

But I honestly can't wait for Bludhaven to fail again. It sucks more creators are going to waste their time writing stories about it, but when it fails at least everyone's argument that it isn't Bludhaven't fault, or that it isn't that bad, will become narrower and narrower where it will become even harder to stand on anymore, lol.[/QUOTE]

Does it need to exist outside of Dick though. It’s a play setting for Nightwing. Again your blaming Bludhaven for things it has no hand in. If it wasn’t Bludhaven, they would just use a different excuse. Cause what it really comes down to is that they don’t want him involved in those stories. And they don’t have to drag things from Gotham, that was again a choice abused by old mediocre creators who didn’t give a crap and dragged in Gotham things to make there quick to produce lazy stories even more convenient. Which Bludhaven allows for, and that’s why it’s a trap. It allows for creators to abuse old formulas and tropes. Bludhaven is just a fictional setting though, it’s not the creator of what’s done with it. Your making Bludhaven this lighting rod for the issues behind Bludhaven that make it what it is. If he goes to New York’s his stories don’t just get better, or Gotham, or Chicago. Cause it not really about the where but the kinds of stories they tell and the conditioned formula. Bludhaven literally could just be where his apartment is, its not what dictates the kinds of stories they choose to tell.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5286149]I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham.

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.[/QUOTE]

He can also do that with a base in Bludhaven, look i'm not crazy about the city myself, but i don't really think that it gets in the way of the stories that many seem to want.

And before you tell me about lazy writers, might i remind you that when Bludhaven was a crater they tried to tie him to New York and then Chicago, so that laziness can crawl back regardless of the status quo.

But there's a way dick can have both. If Taylor what nightwing to be an A-list hero in the dcu he can't just be limited to a street leveler. So dick should be more like this.

Nightwing. Dick's solo street level book in bludhaven or gotham or wherever.

Spyral. Dick's globetrotting convert op team book. DC's core espionage book. His own outsiders or birds of prey.

Teen titans academy. Dick shows up from time to time to teach the young heroes and hang with his friends.

This way dick has a book for more street level bat story's, globetrotting espionage dcu story's and some titans story's.

[QUOTE=Badou;5286158]Can't he just do that in Gotham?[/QUOTE]

Sure. He can hang his hat between adventures anywhere. Gotham. Jump City. Metropolis. Whatever. That's kind of the point I'm making; a setting is what you make it. Good or bad, a setting has no value or personality outside of what is provided to it. Places like Gotham were developed and built up over time, which is why we have things like Arkham and Crime Alley and a full cast of cops under Gordon. None of that stuff was there right from day one, it unfolded slowly over years as writers built on what the previous guys had done. Bludhaven didn't get that, it got reinvented from the ground up with each new creative team. And that's easy to fix; you just start telling your writers to use what is already there instead of constantly re-inventing the setting.

Regarding Dick living in Gotham, I think it's an awful idea. Have we not spent years bitching about DC turning Nightwing into nothing more than a glorified sidekick? Have we not raged against the loss of his individuality? Putting Dick in Gotham allows you to use some familiar faces and locations, at the expense of his own mythology. It'll ensure that Dick remains that sidekick, and not a hero in his own right. It's not worth the cost.

That's the thing; Dick can live anywhere on earth, or even on another planet, and still reach Gotham at the speed of plot. Back when the Titans were on the West Coast, Dick was still able to show up in Gotham any time the writers wanted him there. Dick could live in London or Sydney or planet Rann and still show up for all the important Bat Events, or even just drop by for dinner and a guest appearance. Distance and time only matter when the writer wants to add a foil to the story, otherwise the character just gets there when they're meant to. It doesn't matter that Bruce and Babs and whoever else live in Gotham, Dick can get there whenever the writer wants him to. And not all of us live in the same town as our friends and family. A lot of us move to new towns we have no prior connection to, and make them our own. Why should Dick be any different?

We can put Dick in Gotham, and by doing so make sure he's always a sidekick because he lives literally under Bruce's shadow. Or we can put him in his own city where he can develop and grow his own setting, supporting cast, etc....and still visit Gotham any time the story wants him to. It doesn't have to be Bludhaven, it just has to be Nightwing's.

[QUOTE]But there's a way dick can have both.[/QUOTE]

You don't even need different books for that. One arc, Nightwing can do the street level thing in his home city, taking care of local problems. Next arc he can fly off to Thanagar to stop some Gordanian slavers from selling metahumans. Arc after that he can go to Khandaq and deal with HIVE or Leviathan. Then back to his home city for the next storyline.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5286273]Does it need to exist outside of Dick though. It’s a play setting for Nightwing. Again your blaming Bludhaven for things it has no hand in. If it wasn’t Bludhaven, they would just use a different excuse. Cause what it really comes down to is that they don’t want him involved in those stories. And they don’t have to drag things from Gotham, that was again a choice abused by old mediocre creators who didn’t give a crap and dragged in Gotham things to make there quick to produce lazy stories even more convenient. Which Bludhaven allows for, and that’s why it’s a trap. It allows for creators to abuse old formulas and tropes. Bludhaven is just a fictional setting though, it’s not the creator of what’s done with it. Your making Bludhaven this lighting rod for the issues behind Bludhaven that make it what it is. If he goes to New York’s his stories don’t just get better, or Gotham, or Chicago. Cause it not really about the where but the kinds of stories they tell and the conditioned formula. Bludhaven literally could just be where his apartment is, its not what dictates the kinds of stories they choose to tell.[/QUOTE]

The setting does dictate what kind of stories are told, or at least it should. The role of a setting to set the foundation for what kind of stories you can create. The problem with Bludhaven is that it doesn't have anything to pull from to create stories. It's Dick stuck in a sandbox without any sand. That is one of my big problems with it. Instead of having him be in a place with actual value and resources to draw from he is stuck in a place that limits his stories. I had the same problems with Chicago, which Higgins dragged a Zucco there to try and fill that setting out just like Taylor is doing with Bludhaven now. It's all the same. These locations that are interchangeable are useless, imo.

Places like Gotham or a NYC are different in that they have value beyond just Dick. Gotham is obvious given it is probably only behind Marvel's NYC in terms of utility and useable assets given how much is there, but even a NYC in the DCU has value beyond what a Bludhaven has. It is where the Teen Titans are located, where the JSA are, and loads of other things. It is a much richer playground to build stories in. The whole reason people even like these long form superhero comic stories is because they enjoy seeing these characters with all this history interact together. It's the core of what these stories are built on. Settings with these characters and history allow these stories to feel organic as you feel like there are all these moving parts that exist outside of just what you see on the comic pages. A Bludhaven doesn't have any of this and has to constantly pull things from elsewhere to fill itself out and it feels completely hollow to me when I read it.

To take a character like Dick and put him in a place that has nothing and think that doesn't effect him is something I don't get. Sure, that doesn't mean just because he is in a Gotham or a NYC with far more characters, heroes, villains, and everything else means that creators would use any of that. It could be the exact same boring stories we get in Bludhaven, but I'd rather put creators in a setting that gives them the option to do a lot more than one that has basically offers them nothing.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5286149]I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham.

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.[/QUOTE]

Did you see that splash page, Gotham is overpopulated with heroes. You’d think the crime rate would go down. They could do 3 dat rotation schedules at this point

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5286306]But there's a way dick can have both. If Taylor what nightwing to be an A-list hero in the dcu he can't just be limited to a street leveler. So dick should be more like this.

Nightwing. Dick's solo street level book in bludhaven or gotham or wherever.

Spyral. Dick's globetrotting convert op team book. DC's core espionage book. His own outsiders or birds of prey.

Teen titans academy. Dick shows up from time to time to teach the young heroes and hang with his friends.

This way dick has a book for more street level bat story's, globetrotting espionage dcu story's and some titans story's.[/QUOTE]

The issue with that is simple. We haven’t rebuilt the Titans. We also have the issue is why does he need the spyr? I mean titans or other organizations already exist. You run the issue of how many same organizations. You can’t have everything when you also can’t have your own hero right. If any thing we should have a team of Wally,Dick and Donna. I mean why have more cast members when you don’t use the cast you already have outside the Batfam.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286347]Sure. He can hang his hat between adventures anywhere. Gotham. Jump City. Metropolis. Whatever. That's kind of the point I'm making; a setting is what you make it. Good or bad, a setting has no value or personality outside of what is provided to it. Places like Gotham were developed and built up over time, which is why we have things like Arkham and Crime Alley and a full cast of cops under Gordon. None of that stuff was there right from day one, it unfolded slowly over years as writers built on what the previous guys had done. Bludhaven didn't get that, it got reinvented from the ground up with each new creative team. And that's easy to fix; you just start telling your writers to use what is already there instead of constantly re-inventing the setting.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that is an easy fix. Just look at characters from Marvel or DC. No one in decades has created a new setting for an established character that is a fraction of what a Gotham or a Metropolis is. What a Bludhaven is now is probably one of the best attempts. In the last 20-30 years can you even name another city that has been created that is as well known as Bludhaven? And I think Bludhaven is complete garbage with no value. Even characters like Wonder Woman struggle to have a consistent setting. A large reason a Gotham has as much as it does isn't because creators just reused assets, but also because it has been grandfathered into modern comics from an era where it was much easier to create new things that lasted. I just don't think you can create a strong setting in modern comics that comes close to a Gotham. It's the same with a rogues gallery for a character. People always complain about Dick's rogues gallery, but it is nearly impossible to just create a rogues gallery in modern comics for the same reasons.

When you look at all the big successful characters since the 90s that have had solo runs they don't really have "their own city" and stuff. They tend to be vagabonds or put in an already established city/location. Characters like a Punisher, Wolverine, Deadpool, Venom, Harley Quinn, Ms Marvel, Catwoman, Red Hood, and so on. There is nothing to indicate that Dick having his own city is ever going to work out the way people imagine it could.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286347]Regarding Dick living in Gotham, I think it's an awful idea. Have we not spent years bitching about DC turning Nightwing into nothing more than a glorified sidekick? Have we not raged against the loss of his individuality? Putting Dick in Gotham allows you to use some familiar faces and locations, at the expense of his own mythology. It'll ensure that Dick remains that sidekick, and not a hero in his own right. It's not worth the cost.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter if he lives in Gotham or not. He'll always be treated like a sidekick. He hasn't lived in Gotham in 7 years now? And before the New 52 he last lived in Gotham maybe in the 80s? So he has lived outside of Gotham far more often than he has lived in Gotham and people still complain about him as being treated like a sidekick. What has been proven time and time again is that Bludhaven doesn't protect Dick from being treated like a sidekick or getting dragged into awful Batman crossovers. If it is going to be the same if he is in Gotham or not then I'd rather him just be in a location that gives him more opportunities and resources for his stories, which a Bludhaven doesn't offer him. Bludhaven is just a watered down Gotham anyway that they have to drag assets from Gotham to use for stories. If anything Bludhaven keeps Nightwing under Batman's shadow even more as it forces the Batman comparisons by making him into being Batman-lite in a knockoff Gotham.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286347]That's the thing; Dick can live anywhere on earth, or even on another planet, and still reach Gotham at the speed of plot. Back when the Titans were on the West Coast, Dick was still able to show up in Gotham any time the writers wanted him there. Dick could live in London or Sydney or planet Rann and still show up for all the important Bat Events, or even just drop by for dinner and a guest appearance. Distance and time only matter when the writer wants to add a foil to the story, otherwise the character just gets there when they're meant to. It doesn't matter that Bruce and Babs and whoever else live in Gotham, Dick can get there whenever the writer wants him to. And not all of us live in the same town as our friends and family. A lot of us move to new towns we have no prior connection to, and make them our own. Why should Dick be any different?[/QUOTE]

But when you move to that new town you tend to do that for a new job, right? And you eventually build a new life in that new town. Dick doesn't have either of those. He doesn't have a job tying him to Bludhaven and after 25 years has failed to create anything close to a new meaningful life there. I think it is a complete waste of time to spend more time there. I'd rather Dick not have a anchored location and is on the move constantly doing hero work around the world. It fits his background more with coming from a traveling circus, and then Gotham can be his home he can return to when he wants to see his family and loved ones. That feels like such an easier set up than tacking on Bludhaven too where he just goes back to be all alone? That just sounds awful to me. Seeing him constantly going back to Bludhaven where he has nothing and no connections is just depressing to me.

I always thought that Bludheaven would suit Red Hood better.

The way they want to make it worst, meaner, darker than Gotham, if that’s even possible lol

[QUOTE=TheCape;5286300]He can also do that with a base in Bludhaven, look i'm not crazy about the city myself, but i don't really think that it gets in the way of the stories that many seem to want.

And before you tell me about lazy writers, might i remind you that when Bludhaven was a crater they tried to tie him to New York and then Chicago, so that laziness can crawl back regardless of the status quo.[/QUOTE]

We had probably the worst Nightwing story of all time in New York and no one was talking about how bad the city was. Some people here just hate the the city cause of Grayson. They think Bludhaven ties him into one place, when Seeley already made a book where he did both city staying and globetrotting stories.

Honestly I wish the Titans appeared more in a book. Dc seems to want more Batfam than Titans. Why not both. Why not a Dick and Wally comic ?

[QUOTE=Badou;5286447]I don't think that is an easy fix. Just look at characters from Marvel or DC. No one in decades has created a new setting for an established character that is a fraction of what a Gotham or a Metropolis is.[/QUOTE]

Oh gods no, nobody is ever going to create the equal to Gotham. But matching Gotham isn't the goal; that's like saying you shouldn't bother playing basketball if you're not as good as Michael Jordan. The goal is to provide a workable, consistent setting that jives with the main character and provides a space for him to do stuff in. You're not wrong that Bludhaven has rarely managed to provide anything worthwhile. Most versions do indeed suck ass. I disagree because you blame the setting and not the creators and editors. You're blaming part of the story for being bad instead of the storytellers who *made* it bad.

[QUOTE]There is nothing to indicate that Dick having his own city is ever going to work out the way people imagine it could.[/QUOTE]

But nothing that actually proves it won't work out, either. What you have, is a bunch of crappy Nightwing comics and you're pointing to them and saying "these bad creators had bad ideas and told bad stories, and it's Bludhaven's fault." But we can point to good comics that happened in Bludhaven, and good comics that happened outside of it too. It's not Bludhaven, it's the creators.

Now, if you want to argue that being a nomad is more true to Dick's character and he shouldn't really be tied down to any particular city, I'd largely agree with that. He should have a homebase because nobody wants to perpetually live out of a suitcase, but most of his adventures should be globe trotting.

[QUOTE]It doesn't matter if he lives in Gotham or not. He'll always be treated like a sidekick.[/QUOTE]

Not always. He'll always be a Bat, but that's a different thing than being a sidekick. He wasn't treated as a sidekick in the old Titans or his own solo, not until TPTB decided to regress the character (circa 06 I guess?) and make him a Robin in all but name. And the people who did that to him are all gone. We don't know yet what the new people will do.

[QUOTE]But when you move to that new town you tend to do that for a new job, right?[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. People move for tons of reasons. Hell, sometimes I've moved just to get a change of scenery. The "why" of Dick living in Bludhaven is just a creative choice. Hell at this point, if all the post-Crisis history gets put back into the DCU, Dick's lived off and on in Bludhaven for several years. Rough years with a lot of up's and down's and the city has been in perpetual identity crisis, but he's lived there for a not-marginal amount of his adult life.

[QUOTE]And you eventually build a new life in that new town. Dick doesn't have either of those.[/QUOTE]

He doesn't. But that's because of bad story tellers and editors, not because the idea itself is bad. As they say, there are no bad ideas, only bad writers. Or something like that.

And being in Gotham means Dick uses Arkham, and Clayface, and Gordon, instead of his own supporting cast. He'll be in Gotham, no point in trying to build up his own supporting cast right? Because Gotham's so great. What does that do for Dick as a character and hero? It makes him the sidekick DC treated him as. If the goal is to make Nightwing viable as a solo IP (and I believe it should be, though it's a long-term investment) then using someone else's setting because it's established and better and there's sidekick history there, is absolutely counterintuitive. Yes, a new setting (or Bludhaven) isn't as good as Gotham. Make it better. Build it up. Mandate your writers that they can't nuke everything and start from scratch, that they actually have to adhere to continuity. The mistakes of the past have stunted this effort and discarded it, but changing that and starting the process of solid world building is literally one editorial memo away.

Anyway, I respect you and your opinion and agree with you on a lot of other things. I really enjoy your insights, even on this topic. But we're not changing each other's minds here and we both know it, because we've had this same debate like, half a dozen times. :D Shall we agree to disagree and stop making these other poor posters watch us make the same points we've already batted about? :)

Here's a question; why are those dumb little blue stripes still on Dick's ankles? I don't get what that's about. It doesn't really fit any other aesthetic on the suit, outside of the blue color. It's not any kind of marketable visual marker. Why are they still here? And why is Dick not wearing that DCAU suit we saw as a background image in Doomsday Clock? That suit looked good.

The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick [B][I]want[/I][/B] to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.

So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?

Thats way I say if dick's gonna be in bludhevan it should be a vegas/alantic city, because bludhevan should be one big giant halys circus that dick feels a at home in and a connection. Still much perfer globtrotting :p.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5284424]I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.[/QUOTE]If there is, it'll star Cass and Steph, not Babs. She'll be a voice in the ear, like she is to Batman, but she won't be the protagonist.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5285608]Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw don’t forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.[/QUOTE]Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5285940]Dude I don’t even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches. It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities don’t interfere themselves it’s a location it can’t act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and it’s sole purpose can’t be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I can’t think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs can’t.[/QUOTE]You don't know what ARGUS is? Have you not watched Arrow, where it appears quite prominently?

[QUOTE=Ascended;5286094]
The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU.[/QUOTE]Fair point. ARGUS in Arrow and the DEO in Supergirl do seem to do pretty much the same thing. I guess they overlap in the comics too?

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5288022]Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.[/QUOTE]

And? No one gave a crap they were there. They blew it up because of Nightwing, and he even went on to play a role in IC.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]Oh gods no, nobody is ever going to create the equal to Gotham. But matching Gotham isn't the goal; that's like saying you shouldn't bother playing basketball if you're not as good as Michael Jordan. The goal is to provide a workable, consistent setting that jives with the main character and provides a space for him to do stuff in. You're not wrong that Bludhaven has rarely managed to provide anything worthwhile. Most versions do indeed suck ass. I disagree because you blame the setting and not the creators and editors. You're blaming part of the story for being bad instead of the storytellers who *made* it bad.[/quote]

I never said equal to Gotham. That obviously will never happen in a million years. I said no creator from either Marvel or DC has been able to even create a new city that is a fraction, like 1/8th or even less, of what Gotham is in the last 30 years. Bludhaven is kind of the best example and it is bad. It leads me to believe that it isn't possible to create a new city for an established hero to operate in and have it actually last.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]But nothing that actually proves it won't work out, either. What you have, is a bunch of crappy Nightwing comics and you're pointing to them and saying "these bad creators had bad ideas and told bad stories, and it's Bludhaven's fault." But we can point to good comics that happened in Bludhaven, and good comics that happened outside of it too. It's not Bludhaven, it's the creators.[/quote]

You keep blaming the creators, but if the creators are given faulty tools to work with you can't expect them to succeed. If the list of creators who write about Bludhaven keep failing and nothing ends up sticking maybe it isn't just that they are bad writers but that as a concept Bludhaven is kind of broken. It's a poorly designed city that was created to turn Dick into a traditional Daredevil-lite type hero, but Dick isn't anything like Daredevil. He doesn't have any real ties or a reason to care about Bludhaven the way a Daredevil cares about Hell's Kitchen, which is the core identity of what makes those heroes in those settings work, but we are supposed to believe he wants to be there for... some reason. There is nothing about it that makes it special to Dick other than it was just a place Dixon created to be a worse Gotham.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]Now, if you want to argue that being a nomad is more true to Dick's character and he shouldn't really be tied down to any particular city, I'd largely agree with that. He should have a homebase because nobody wants to perpetually live out of a suitcase, but most of his adventures should be globe trotting.[/quote]

He has Gotham and Titans Tower. They are two home bases that actually have people Dick cares about in them. I don't see the point of a third one when it has nothing in it that would give him a reason to want to keep going back to it. All of his loved ones, friends, allies, and everything else are located outside of Bludhaven.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5287373]And being in Gotham means Dick uses Arkham, and Clayface, and Gordon, instead of his own supporting cast. He'll be in Gotham, no point in trying to build up his own supporting cast right? Because Gotham's so great. What does that do for Dick as a character and hero? It makes him the sidekick DC treated him as. If the goal is to make Nightwing viable as a solo IP (and I believe it should be, though it's a long-term investment) then using someone else's setting because it's established and better and there's sidekick history there, is absolutely counterintuitive. Yes, a new setting (or Bludhaven) isn't as good as Gotham. Make it better. Build it up. Mandate your writers that they can't nuke everything and start from scratch, that they actually have to adhere to continuity. The mistakes of the past have stunted this effort and discarded it, but changing that and starting the process of solid world building is literally one editorial memo away. [/QUOTE]

Gotham is a big enough playground to have his own stories in. Dick's greatest solo story was him as Batman running around Gotham with Jim Gordon in Black Mirror. You couldn't do more stories like that with him in Gotham as Nightwing? I think you can. I mean dragging assets from Gotham to use for Bludhaven makes Bludhaven kind of redundant. Even Taylor is dragging Batgirl and a Zucco from Gotham to prop up Bludhaven some. I mean did people complain when Tim, Cass, Steph, Barbara, Jason, Catwoman, Harley, and others have solo stories set in Gotham? They didn't, so I don't get why it is just an issue for Dick.

And forcing writers to use things they don't like probably won't lead to good stories. A big reason writers don't like using the stuff old Bludhaven writers made is because they are kind of terrible. Seeley tried to bring back a lot of the old Dixon era stuff but all it did was remind me of how awful most of those creations were. Do you really want more Blockbuster stories? I'd be fine with never having to read about Dick fighting him again.

But yeah, I think we beat this topic into the ground for now. We are going in circles and I'm sure that after Taylor's run comes out the topic will be brought up again in some form, lol.

[QUOTE=Vordan;5287765]The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick [B][I]want[/I][/B] to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.

So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?[/QUOTE]

This is what I've been saying the whole time. All the elements you need to have him be connected as a hero to Bludhaven don't exist, but we are supposed think he wants to be there when there is nothing tying him to that city that would give him a reason to care. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You'd have to rebuild Dick's history to make it work I think.

How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5288087]How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.[/QUOTE]

Dixon, Grayson, Seeley, Humphries, Percy, Lobdell, Jurgens... 7 and now there will be 8
I don't know if there are other, fill-in writers, in the 90s-2000s

[QUOTE=Vordan;5287765]The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick [B][I]want[/I][/B] to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.

So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?[/QUOTE]

Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, he decided he might as well roost there.
Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out.
Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5288943]Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, [B]he decided he might as well roost there[/B].
Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out.
Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.[/QUOTE]
“I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.

[QUOTE=Vordan;5289144]“I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.[/QUOTE]

He likes to help and stays where help is needed, and yeah, that means it doesn't have to be Bludhaven. It could be any city, any neighborhood.

I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one.

What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister.

Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.

I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.

Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!

Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.

Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.

Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.

There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.