-
[QUOTE=Rakiduam;4799748]Oh c'mon! Let's ignore Tim's entire run as a solo, and a Titan, and in Young justice, and Damian's entire existnce. There is a reason Lobdell had to take from every other Robin to make somehing of Jason's history.[/QUOTE]
what did jason take from tim and damian
jason going to the circus to see dick grayson? jason being adjancent to the LOA? Jason being red robin, jason murdering his teach after being taught how to do the job right.
if you just said took from dick i would have agreed with you,but he took nothing from tim or damian
-
When Steph was made a Robin to die for Bruce and Tim angst fodder and then went unacknowledged.
The cover and her inclusion in general is acknowledgement. Perhaps a way of apology for how her time as Robin was treated.
I'm honestly surprised. I thought people who are fans of Dick who's been screwed by DC too would understand this.
Or is it because Dick, Jean-Paul, and Gordon are not included in Batman anniversary?
Well, DC does have problems and they only act if people shame them forever or lose sales, and I dont hear any protest about that one as often as I heard Steph fans screamed about her treatment since the 2000s.
It took them a while to get that acknowledgement. Robin 75th anniversary was the first official one.
-
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4799692]It may be the most remarkable. But it isn't the only remarkable thing about his Robin. That's what I was arguing. It's hard to deny it, when dying had impact for others characters for a decade. Even if the impact is of my dislike half the time because they blamed him and turned him sometimes into something he wasn't. But is wasn't the only remarkable thing (quoting Ascended: "his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died").[/QUOTE]
Oh, don't mind me; I'm a fan of using a bit of hyperbole to spice up a post. :p
No, dying isn't the only thing Jason did as Robin. It's just the thing everyone remembers.
And I understand the business and marketing (about to finish my degree in business and marketing, matter of fact! yay me!) of using Carrie and Steph, and I wouldn't even argue that Carrie doesnt deserve it. DKR is a big deal (even if Year One is better). Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. She gets a cover for marketing purposes only, and I get that (would likely have argued for something similar myself), because as a Robin......four issues isn't even a "stint" as a Robin, it's barely more than cosplay. Like, we have seen Starfire wearing nothing but Dick's Robin shirt in more panels than we saw Steph as Robin. :p
-
[QUOTE=Ascended;4800399]Oh, don't mind me; I'm a fan of using a bit of hyperbole to spice up a post. :p
No, dying isn't the only thing Jason did as Robin. It's just the thing everyone remembers.
And I understand the business and marketing (about to finish my degree in business and marketing, matter of fact! yay me!) of using Carrie and Steph, and I wouldn't even argue that Carrie doesnt deserve it. DKR is a big deal (even if Year One is better). Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. She gets a cover for marketing purposes only, and I get that (would likely have argued for something similar myself), because as a Robin......four issues isn't even a "stint" as a Robin, it's barely more than cosplay. Like, we have seen Starfire wearing nothing but Dick's Robin shirt in more panels than we saw Steph as Robin. :p[/QUOTE]
Oh, ok.
Yeah, you have a point. Marketing probably has a lot to do with her being chosen. But perhaps her history outside her Robin days can help in the argument for choicing her for the cover. And Tim getting the 90's cover makes some space for that choice.
And that way we can have that gorgeous, gorgeous cover by Putri. Having two girls in there helps in making the composition work so beautifully :3.
-
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4798767]Steph's cover is at Tim's expense, not Jason's. Jason was unlucky in that Carrie and he both date from the same decade. Carrie's the reason he lost out.[/QUOTE]
Well it was DC's decision to do some decade variant cover theme. I wouldn't have done that and just given the 8 covers to the Robins that actually deserve it. Sure, the 00s could have been Tim and I would have no problems, but Damian was Robin in far more issues in the 00s than Steph was too. He could have gotten that cover as that is the decade when he debuted as Robin.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4800388]When Steph was made a Robin to die for Bruce and Tim angst fodder and then went unacknowledged.
The cover and her inclusion in general is acknowledgement. Perhaps a way of apology for how her time as Robin was treated.
I'm honestly surprised. I thought people who are fans of Dick who's been screwed by DC too would understand this.
Or is it because Dick, Jean-Paul, and Gordon are not included in Batman anniversary?
Well, DC does have problems and they only act if people shame them forever or lose sales, and I dont hear any protest about that one as often as I heard Steph fans screamed about her treatment since the 2000s.
It took them a while to get that acknowledgement. Robin 75th anniversary was the first official one.[/QUOTE]
She didn't get screwed by DC because they didn't acknowledge her time as Robin. There is nothing to acknowledge. It was for 4 issues 15 years ago in a story that many don't look back on fondly. I didn't enjoy the story. She is far more iconic as Spoiler and Batgirl, and as Batgirl is when she finally got her acknowledgement as a hero in my eyes. That is her legacy, not Robin. DC taking the Batgirl identity away from her is what her fans were upset about far more and rightfully so.
Her time as Robin is completely forgettable outside her fans wanting her to keep it because it is a nice notch in her belt to be included with them. Which is something I at least can understand far more than her fans trying to act like those 4 issues were some profound story that makes her not being included some sin against comics. Sure, I'd love for Dick's time as Batman to be acknowledged more and for him to actually be counted as a Batman, but I know that will never happen. So it isn't something I push for since I know he will never be close to what Bruce is to the identity. It is the same as Steph for Robin, but her fans can't let it go.
Overall I just don't feel she added anything to the identity or legacy. I mean her "death" in War Games was already done far better by Jason, and Carrie is the first female Robin and part of one of the most iconic Batman stories of all time. So I'm fine with including her with the main 4, but I just don't think Steph did enough to be counted with them. I mean Starro/Jarro in Snyder's JL run has been wearing the Robin costume longer than Steph ever has, haha. Why isn't he included there?
-
[QUOTE=redmax99;4800029]jason going to the circus to see dick grayson? jason being adjancent to the LOA? Jason being red robin, jason murdering his teach after being taught how to do the job right.[/QUOTE]
Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory
-
[QUOTE=Ascended;4800399]Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. [/QUOTE]
Btw. Bruce Wayne Jr. (the Robin from the imaginary silver age stories) hat that many appearances (that I could find, there might be more) and those were complete stories .
-
[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]
Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?
-
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4800679]Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?[/QUOTE]For Dick.
Maybe I formulated it wrong, what I wanted say that this that it is not one of his most iconic costume designs. Reusing it for an other Robin is imo not really taking anything from him.
And as far as I can tell Jasons time as Red Robin was also never referenced in the current continuity, and is by most fans not really considered relevant (I think most were probably happy when he ditched that and went back to beeing Red Hood).
The only Robin where being "Red Robin" is really an important part of his history is Tim, and he used this identity after Jason (and the General) used it.
-
[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]
no i was asking Rakiduam what Jason Took from Tim and Damian, because they said jason took from all of the robins to make his history interesting.those was just my examples to counter point if they said yes.
-
[QUOTE=Drako;4798348]Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.
1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)
[/QUOTE]And here it is.
[img]https://i.redd.it/mfnx1jfy9uc41.jpg[/img]
-
[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]
Damian was created in Birth of the Demon.
Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.
-
All the Dick covers look great. Particularly love the one with Batman and Batgirl.
On the subject of Steph: wasn't her tenure as Robin involved in one of the most maligned Batman stories ever, and doesn't do her or Bruce any favors as characters? If DC does a similar celebration for the Batgirl identity she should definitely get some covers, but her time as Robin was brief and sucked for everyone involved (including her). Who needs to be reminded of any of it?
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4799665]While i don’t really care one way or the other about Steph getting a cover, but where is Duke then?
Also I don’t care how much one is a fan a Jason, his death was by far the most remarkable thing that happen during his tenure by a huge margin. [B]Saving Superman isn’t even in the ball park. Come on now.[/B][/QUOTE]
And the one improvement the JLU adaptation made was giving that bit to Wonder Woman, because otherwise she just gets beat up by Mongul and dropped out of the story. It's not a remarkable moment if they can give it to another character and have it work even better
-
[QUOTE=dietrich;4800841]Damian was created in Birth of the Demon.
Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.[/QUOTE]There was also Tallant Wayne from "Brotherhood of the Bat",but those are all pretty different from Damian, had a very different training and were not part of the main continuity at the time of UtRH.
-
Here's that last cover again, inked and coloured:
[img]https://i.redd.it/gwy7ngzn87d41.jpg[/img]
