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[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4836057]Damian's never been able to beat Dick. [/QUOTE]Did the ever fight?
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4836057]Sometimes Damian can beat Jason and Tim, though more often he can't. [/QUOTE] That imo more a proof for the shitty treatment of Tim and Jason in Batfamily-Events then for Damians fighting skills.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4836434]I tend to rank Dick somewhere in the top 10 fighters of the DCU, but on the lower end of that spectrum. Shiva and Cass and Dragon (when he exists) are the top 3, [B]Dinah's on the list somewhere too, and I generally rank her only a little below the likes of Shiva and Cass. [/B]If we include superhumans then Wonder Woman is right up there too, and we can't discount Slade either. I don't think Bruce is in the top 10 at all; he's good, but not *that* good, and his victories usually come from gadgets and planning more than sheer combat prowess.
Dick's spent most of his life fighting criminals, most of that time dealing with superhuman threats, and even before being Robin was performing aerial stunts most people couldn't dream of, and is generally regarded as the best natural athlete in DC. He doesn't rely on gadgets nearly as much as Bruce does.
Granted, the last few years the comics haven't really reflected this level of skill. But given the pile of sh*t the last several years have been I'm willing to write off nearly everything as out of continuity due to DC's stupidity. The way Dick has been handled by the company shouldn't *count* when figuring out who Dick is or what he's capable of.
But it really pisses me off when this guy, who's been in the game longer than most Leaguers and is among the most experienced heroes on earth, gets treated like a idiot sidekick still figuring himself out.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Someone with some SENSE around here. :p
Just saw the Black Canary vs Sindel Death Battle when the video slipped into my YouTube recommendations feed. I'm amending my earlier statement--- Dinah would wipe the floor with Dick in straight hand-to-hand, Canary Cry or no Canary Cry.
[SIZE=1](Also, it's frightening how YouTube knew to recommend it when I wasn't even searching for Black Canary / Birds of Prey on the platform / Google...)[/SIZE]
So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder with how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂ’t spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity
[QUOTE=Robanker;4836748]Thank you. Someone with some SENSE around here. :p[/QUOTE]
>bro-fist!<
[QUOTE=xiyon;4836932]Just saw the Black Canary vs Sindel Death Battle when the video slipped into my YouTube recommendations feed. I'm amending my earlier statement--- Dinah would wipe the floor with Dick in straight hand-to-hand, Canary Cry or no Canary Cry.[/QUOTE]
I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4837012]So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder with how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂ’t spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity[/QUOTE]
How do you mean? Like Dick's relationship dynamic with Clark? I'd say their bond is probably more like "cool uncle/favorite nephew" than anything. I think Seely captured it really well back at the start of Rebirth.
And no, I don't think Dick ever interacted with Diana much. He had team ups with Superman, but none with Diana that I know of. He did work with her as part of "Batman and...." but that was it.
I'd like to think that he was very intimidated by her back in the day. Imagine being this very young teen in pixie shorts, full of adolescent hormones and confusion, and the most beautiful, powerful woman in the world is sitting at the same table.
And I like to think Dick never quite outgrew that, and Diana still makes him tongue tied and he blushes just looking at her.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4837034]I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the first few fights will be even, but as each fight progresses, Dinah will be able to counter him more.
When I made my first statement, it was just under the assumption that Dinah was trained by Wildcat to search for weaknesses, and Dinah knows a lot of fighting styles. Big whoop--- so can pretty much every named hand-to-hand combatant in the DC universe. But the Death Battle video showed Dinah's more than that. She learns and adapts [I]fast[/I], to the point of beating even Wonder Woman in a spar, and out-thinking/processing a Green Lantern Power Ring. Now [I]that's[/I] impressive.
Unfortunately, Dick hasn't had, as far as I know, a remotely similar feat, so, yeah-- Dinah would wipe the floor with him. Dinah vs Cass would be a fairer fight, imho.
I'm still going with Dick being the bastard fighter giving him an edge in a no holds barred fight, though. Hiding in the shadows, hitting you from behind, going for the sucker punch, and even cracking [I]yo momma[/I] taunts mid-fight.
Pfft Dick beat Wonder Woman when he was a kid :cool:. Seriously though 80 year’s old, Dick has “feats” for days.
How would he beat her? Your talking about a wonder who doesn't need her super-strength. Not only that but she is one of the best fighters. Also, she could have been holding back. Diana also had impress feet. But yea, I'm talking about the relationship with Diana and DIck. We don't get to see how their dynamic is. But anyway I hope Dc brought back the fact Dick got the name Nightwing from Clarke.
Man thank goodness I don't care about feats in comics, there so inconsistent. I just want characters to be in there proper tier, who beats who I don't care.
But hell yeah I want more dick with clark and diana. Dick and Clark on big uncle little nephew adventures I'm there.
Dick having a huge crush on diana is to funny to past up. The irony. Dick with most females is this charming and charismatic young man but dick around diana is more shy a d bumbling. Sounds fun.
[QUOTE=xiyon;4837116]Unfortunately, Dick hasn't had, as far as I know, a remotely similar feat, so, yeah-- Dinah would wipe the floor with him. Dinah vs Cass would be a fairer fight, imho.[/QUOTE]Feats are often nor really a good metric, especially if it is just one feat, since the best (and worst) feats of a character are often PIS.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4837228]Man thank goodness I don't care about feats in comics, there so inconsistent. I just want characters to be in there proper tier, who beats who I don't care.
But hell yeah I want more dick with clark and diana. Dick and Clark on big uncle little nephew adventures I'm there.
Dick having a huge crush on diana is to funny to past up. The irony. Dick with most females is this charming and charismatic young man but dick around diana is more shy a d bumbling. Sounds fun.[/QUOTE]
This talk of Dick hanging out with the other two in the Trinity makes me think.
Would a Trinity book with Nightwing, Donna Troy, and...er, Power Girl (she's the one in their generation, right?) sell? Who would they even fight?
[QUOTE=xiyon;4837390]This talk of Dick hanging out with the other two in the Trinity makes me think.
Would a Trinity book with Nightwing, Donna Troy, and...er, Power Girl (she's the one in their generation, right?) sell? Who would they even fight?[/QUOTE]
Editorial, hopefully.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4837034]>bro-fist!<
I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.
How do you mean? Like Dick's relationship dynamic with Clark? I'd say their bond is probably more like "cool uncle/favorite nephew" than anything. I think Seely captured it really well back at the start of Rebirth.
And no, I don't think Dick ever interacted with Diana much. He had team ups with Superman, but none with Diana that I know of. He did work with her as part of "Batman and...." but that was it.
I'd like to think that he was very intimidated by her back in the day. Imagine being this very young teen in pixie shorts, full of adolescent hormones and confusion, and the most beautiful, powerful woman in the world is sitting at the same table.
And I like to think Dick never quite outgrew that, and Diana still makes him tongue tied and he blushes just looking at her.[/QUOTE]I don't think he'd feel that way about Diana nowadays. She just looks like an older Donna, remember (this is due to Donna's real life origins, as a teenage Diana who was accidentally mistaken for a sidekick when the first Teen Titans story was being written, and later retconned as being a new character). Diana and Donna look so alike that Donna's been mistaken for Wonder Woman.
[QUOTE=Aahz;4836747]Did they ever fight?
[/QUOTE]
Training and when he's being petulant
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4837012]So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂ’t spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity[/QUOTE]
The few times I saw Dick interact with Justice League gen who are not Clark, he's casual professional. He's been around the adult heroes since he was a kid and knows their sidekicks, so the ones he doesn't interact personally he knows from his friends.
As a kid, he respects and admires them, but as a teen and leader of independent young heroes who know them, he started to see their cracks. So as an adult, he's not afraid to interact, or when it comes to it, suggest, take the lead, or call them out.
He doesn't get flustered by Diana as an adult. The only version of Dick I know that has a fantasy about Diana is the one where he never knew Donna and rarely interact with the Justice League in the first place (Grayson #11 I think).
And the only Robin that gets flustered in front of her Pre-Flashpoint was Jason.
I mean should Dick be written has a better fighter than the Batfam or stay where he is? I mean he was trained by Batman and he is well known for his acrobat skills.
Probably, or they will need to find a different resident jobber.
Issue 69 preview:
[url]https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/16/ric-grayson-wants-his-memories-back-and-fans-want-their-dick-in-nightwing-69-preview/[/url]
[spoil]Joker finds out about the four fake Nightwings from the news, meanwhile Grayson is in Switzerland, wearing a new costume. Captions show a conversation he's had with Bea - he has his memories back but can't tell them from the fakes - is he Ric Grayson, Talon, or Dick Grayson, Nightwing? He intends to find out![/spoil]
WTF is he wearing?
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4838018]WTF is he wearing?[/QUOTE]
Bucky 2.0
10char
I was about to say the same thing. He looks like Bucky.
But man, when you don't think the concept could get any more stupid they find a way to top themselves. Again, none of this really makes sense and speaks to how lazy the creators are. So Dick has two sets of memories now. The fake Talon ones and his real ones, but doesn't the fact that they have the cop Nightwings running around in his old Nightwing costumes kind of make it obvious which ones are real? Or the fact that there is probably loads of third party information about Nightwing in Bludhaven from the past year or so from the news or random citizens also make it obvious which ones are real?
Oh and lets not forget that he is torn between memories from the Owls that are an obvious evil organization that even Ric himself has witnessed them trying to kill innocent people and fighting the fake Nightwings, or of memories of him as a hero helping people. Is it really that difficult to figure out which ones are fake when those are your two choices?
Right, I was thinking the exact same thing with the preview. Is it not painfully obvious.
Yeah I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. It shoulda been a wrap the moment he got his actual memories back. He knows who he used to be. Now he decides who he wants to be. There shouldn't be any confusion or any identity crisis. The Talon memories shouldn't even be a factor at this point.
Both memories are proving to be irrelevant anyway.
[QUOTE=Blue22;4838250]Yeah I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. It shoulda been a wrap the moment he got his actual memories back. He knows who he used to be. Now he decides who he wants to be. There shouldn't be any confusion or any identity crisis. The Talon memories shouldn't even be a factor at this point.[/QUOTE]
When bea didn’t die I knew something was up
Knowing Joker, I think she still will. And so will the four fake Nightwings.
They been retconning a lot of characters origins or certain parts. Let’s hope this will be one of them for Dick
They were like, hey... you thought we couldnt do worse than the n52 original robin suit? Hold. My. Beer.
Honestly they could easily end this with having Diana come in using the Lasso of truth to have Roc know his truth memories but they want to continue this terrible story
Doesn't Bruce own his own? Used it in The Return of Bruce Wayne 10 years ago, and that probably never stopped being canon because Dick's Batman tenure stayed in continuity.
Miss Martian and Raven could probably sort Ric out in like a second, but whatever. That’s a why doesn’t Batman just call Superman situation. So I’ll give them a break there.
But Ric not knowing what memories are real at this point is just moronic. If it’s not blatantly obvious to him, which it logically should be, he can just turn on the news or google it. What’s more they have him asking a question that doesn’t even matter, cause he’s neither Ric the Talon or Dick Grayson. He’s Ric the homeless nothing. Neither memories actually matter or effect his current character anyway.
Quite frankly too much of Ric relies on its creators thinking their readers are either too stupid or just aren’t going to care about these kinds of things. It’s just textbook bad writing bred from laziness and not actually giving a crap.
Why didn't Megan and Raven try it anyway? They would've known what had happened, as Nightwing was on the Titans with them until he got shot.
The "in comics excuse" was that Dick, or I guess Ric, didn't want his memories back and didn't want anything to do with what his old life was, even though he ran off to Bludhaven immediately where he has zero connection to outside of being Nightwing there. So the whole set up falls apart right at the start. Apparently everyone in the DCU was fine with his decision for whatever reason. Which of course makes zero sense on multiple levels, but nothing about this story made any sense. Letting a person who just suffered a traumatic brain injury and lost their entire set of adolescent and adulthood memories make decisions for themselves that resulted in them abandoning everyone that knows them to live as a hobo in random strangers' houses and steal their food is completely stupid.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4839871]Why didn't Megan and Raven try it anyway? They would've known what had happened, as Nightwing was on the Titans with them until he got shot.[/QUOTE]
Ms. Martian said that fixing Ric was too risky and Raven had lost her connection to her soul self and couldn't do much of anything.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4839515]Doesn't Bruce own his own? Used it in The Return of Bruce Wayne 10 years ago, and that probably never stopped being canon because Dick's Batman tenure stayed in continuity.[/QUOTE]
They only keep the broad strokes. The details vary on each writer.
---
I keep looking at Robin Year One and keep not buying it because I haven't decided how much realism I want in comics
The one scene I remember that people once posted was when Two-Face forced Dick to make a choice that resulted in someone's death, followed by a beat-up, followed by Gordon chewing Batman for it, followed by firing, followed by Alfred chewing Batman for it, and of course, the whole story ends with Gordon agreeing about Robin...
...and I can't help but feel all those either don't make sense, or everyone making bad decisions because the comic brings up the reality of death and trauma in a story about a kid wanting to be a superhero, all the while trying to justify the brand. All of this makes me confused about how much is too much realism in comics, or at least, in what I want.
It's like shooting Nightwing. By all rights, he should be wearing a bulletproof cowl from now on, now that they bring it up, but we know they won't.
or how writers invest in years of Batman perfecting his war on crime by giving him various tech to cover his weakness as human but won't do the same for the kids.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4839582]Miss Martian and Raven could probably sort Ric out in like a second, but whatever. That’s a why doesn’t Batman just call Superman situation. So I’ll give them a break there.
But Ric not knowing what memories are real at this point is just moronic. If it’s not blatantly obvious to him, which it logically should be, he can just turn on the news or google it. What’s more they have him asking a question that doesn’t even matter, cause he’s neither Ric the Talon or Dick Grayson. He’s Ric the homeless nothing. Neither memories actually matter or effect his current character anyway.
Quite frankly too much of Ric relies on its creators thinking their readers are either too stupid or just aren’t going to care about these kinds of things. It’s just textbook bad writing bred from laziness and not actually giving a crap.[/QUOTE]
Creatively bankrupt, the current writing is. It's just strip-mining as much drama as it can from a silly and poorly-received plot.
But I don't know. I'm torn between seeing a poor Nightwing run, or no Nightwing run at all. The former has the hope that maybe, [I]maybe[/I] a writer interested in Nightwing will come along, while the latter, if extended too long, might mean Nightwing won't ever have a book again.
[QUOTE=xiyon;4840009]Creatively bankrupt, the current writing is. It's just strip-mining as much drama as it can from a silly and poorly-received plot.
But I don't know. I'm torn between seeing a poor Nightwing run, or no Nightwing run at all. The former has the hope that maybe, [I]maybe[/I] a writer interested in Nightwing will come along, while the latter, if extended too long, might mean Nightwing won't ever have a book again.[/QUOTE]
Dick's too popular to be in limbo for too long. I mean, things could spiral even further out of control than they are, and things could get real bad. Anything's possible. And that could be a serious detriment to the character. But unless the world goes totally bonkers, he's relatively safe from long-term limbo. He's the first Robin; that alone ensures he's somewhere in continuity. He's too well entrenched as the first Robin for someone else to take that position in a reboot (no one will accept Tim as the first, for example). And the fact that there are other popular Robins that DC makes money from help ensure that Dick gets aged up to Nightwing; you can't have Damian and Jason without him. And he does well in larger media, which helps provide *some* pressure to use him.
DC can't get rid of him because he's too big a player, has too much history central to the Bat mythos, and is too popular, so they've chosen the next best thing; treating him so badly his fans abandon him. We *should* abandon the book until the quality rises, otherwise DC will never give us anything better. But we can support Dick without rewarding DC for this kind of crap, and we *should* do that.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4840165]Dick's too popular to be in limbo for too long. I mean, things could spiral even further out of control than they are, and things could get real bad. Anything's possible. And that could be a serious detriment to the character. But unless the world goes totally bonkers, he's relatively safe from long-term limbo. He's the first Robin; that alone ensures he's somewhere in continuity. He's too well entrenched as the first Robin for someone else to take that position in a reboot (no one will accept Tim as the first, for example). And the fact that there are other popular Robins that DC makes money from help ensure that Dick gets aged up to Nightwing; you can't have Damian and Jason without him. And he does well in larger media, which helps provide *some* pressure to use him.
DC can't get rid of him because he's too big a player, has too much history central to the Bat mythos, and is too popular, so they've chosen the next best thing; treating him so badly his fans abandon him. We *should* abandon the book until the quality rises, otherwise DC will never give us anything better. But we can support Dick without rewarding DC for this kind of crap, and we *should* do that.[/QUOTE]
I think the way to handle that isn't to abandon Dick, but to abandon DC.
[QUOTE=king81992;4839970]Ms. Martian said that fixing Ric was too risky and Raven had lost her connection to her soul self and couldn't do much of anything.[/QUOTE]Raven got fixed when Titans was cancelled. So that excuse doesn't hold after that.
Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?