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So i decided to read the rest of the Ric era that has been published so far and man that was boring and unremarkable, i think that my "favorite" issue is the one with Barbara with the meta commentary about accepting and giving a chance to Ric, it was hilarious. Jurgen run has been just boring thought, it feels like is dragging it's feet until Joker War. Also read the annual, they were boring, also Jesus christ Bruce was wrong with you?!.
[QUOTE=TheCape;5088180]So i decided to read the rest of the Ric era that has been published so far and man that was boring and unremarkable, i think that my "favorite" issue is the one with Barbara with the meta commentary about accepting and giving a chance to Ric, it was hilarious. Jurgen run has been just boring thought, it feels like is dragging it's feet until Joker War. Also read the annual, they were boring, also Jesus christ Bruce was wrong with you?!.[/QUOTE]
My hope is that we're going to move past this so hard that it'll only be a footnote in Dick's 80 year history.
[QUOTE=Wingin' It;5088190]My hope is that we're going to move past this so hard that it'll only be a footnote in Dick's 80 year history.[/QUOTE]
Oh it's definetly gonna be a footnote, there is nothing about it worth keeping, i'm not even angry about it, just whelmed the uninspired execution, is like a guide to "make it boring, unmemorable and a bit annoying" and surprised that lasted this long.
Anyone heard the rumors that Nightwing will be in the new Gotham Knights video game?
Ric will live on in infamy.
Detective Comics #1027 variant cover by Tony Daniel.
[IMG]https://i.redd.it/f0bj5bh172g51.png[/IMG]
I don't know why, but this art seems a little off to me.
Game of Thrones, Bat edition.
[QUOTE=Drako;5088590]Detective Comics #1027 variant cover by Tony Daniel.
[IMG]https://i.redd.it/f0bj5bh172g51.png[/IMG]
I don't know why, but this art seems a little off to me.[/QUOTE]
....Is this a hint that they're putting Babs back in the chair as Oracle?
[QUOTE=Wingin' It;5088626]....Is this a hint that they're putting Babs back in the chair as Oracle?[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. She appears like Batgirl.
Maybe she will have a biggest focus in an Oracle role (that she could do when she walks).
Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too?
Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.
Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything. :p
But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5089153]Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too?
Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.
Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything. :p
But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.[/QUOTE]
Any effort is better than zero. Right now my threshold to be impressed by DC's handling of Nightwing is very low.
At least he has pretty good tv representation right now.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5089153]Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too?
Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.
Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything. :p
But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.[/QUOTE]
I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice).
I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.
Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5089170]Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.[/QUOTE]
Well, if Barbara becomes Oracle while she can walks, she could still be part in direct battles. Many people even say her current suit doesn't look like a Batgirl suit.
However, Oracle name isn't an iconic name as Batgirl. So, it will totally depends if Barbara Gordon name could mantain a solo. It would be a big risk.
That said, Barbara using Oracle name in a solo could be a bump of sales at first (especially on a relaunch).
[QUOTE=Konja7;5089169]I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice).
I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.[/QUOTE]
What is your fear?
[QUOTE=Wingin' It;5089188]What is your fear?[/QUOTE]
My fear is that DC put Dick exclusively in a Titans comic, while Dick's solo is canceled.
However, this will just happen if DC really wants to push Titans comic.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5089195]My fear is that DC put Dick exclusively in a Titans comic, while Dick's solo is canceled.
However, this will just happen if DC really wants to push Titans comic.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it; Red Hood and Batgirl aren't being canceled, and they sell about the same. We heard Jurgens also talk about a plan in the works after he leaves the title in a more recent interview. I won't deny that two years of Ric have pushed away all but the most die-hard fans of his on his solo.
I'm sure we'll here more from DCDOME.
I do see where you're coming from. Back in the day, Dick was firmly a Titans character and the Bat-office had little control over what was done with him. I can't see the same thing happening now, though, with almost everything being tangentially related to the Bat these days.
[QUOTE=Wingin' It;5089204]I doubt it; Red Hood and Batgirl aren't being canceled, and they sell about the same. We heard Jurgens also talk about a plan in the works after he leaves the title in a more recent interview. I won't deny that two years of Ric have pushed away all but the most die-hard fans of his on his solo.
I'm sure we'll here more from DCDOME.
I do see where you're coming from. Back in the day, Dick was firmly a Titans character and the Bat-office had little control over what was done with him. I can't see the same thing happening now, though, with almost everything being tangentially related to the Bat these days.[/QUOTE]
That's why I say it will just happen if DC really want to push Titans.
They wouldn't cancel Nightwing due to lack of popularity, but because they want to push Titans sales. This will force Nightwing fans to buy Titans if they want read about Nightwing.
Technically, DC did this with Tim in New52 (when Tim in his Red Robin solo has good sales).
It is just a fear. So, I really hope this doesn't happen.
PS: Batgirl is canceled in October. Although the comic may return in a general relaunch.
Hot take, I want Nightwing cancelled. Gets him out of the Bat Office and would allow a Titans writer to have freedom with the character which in turn means more focus.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5089169]I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice).
I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://64.media.tumblr.com/a682ec7d3fd54c792fb83b24f5318dd6/29f2f482281a13b8-15/s1280x1920/590774c1422660fa9097b54c6c312162313d6af9.jpg[/url]
I don't see any Titans here either. I got Oracle, Signal, Batwoman, Orphan, Robin and Nightwing and someone in a cape fighting alongside Orphan.
But the solicitation for Nightwing #75 says his Teen Titans friends will help restore his memories but it also says Alfred will help so we might still not have anyone outside the Batfamily actually show up to help personally.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5089271]Hot take, I want Nightwing cancelled. Gets him out of the Bat Office and would allow a Titans writer to have freedom with the character which in turn means more focus.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.
Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5089170]Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.[/QUOTE]
Well, there's problems with Batgirl/Oracle.
As Batgirl, Babs doesn't matter. She's just another vigilante in a city over crowded with vigilantes. Babs' role in big stories and Events has dropped off to nothing and in-universe Babs is a total non-factor (she wasn't even part of the 'Tec era Gotham Knights). And I don't believe her sales are great either; the Burnside run seemed to sell well enough but that seems to be an exception, not the rule.
But "classic" Oracle is harder to write a monthly series around. Comics from indie publishers can get away from the typical superhero trappings, but a classic Oracle title would break the superhero mold and fans don't seem to want that kind of stuff from DC, they want spandex and violence. So returning Babs to Oracle poses big challenges, and the Oracle name isn't nearly as well known or iconic as Batgirl.
DC could just split the difference; Babs keeps the Batgirl name but operates in much the same way Oracle did, except instead of using a strike team like the Birds of Prey Babs does all the field work herself. That would set Babs apart from other heroes and give her the in-universe importance of Oracle but lets her stay in the action and keep the "bigger" name as well.
As far as Dick goes....I don't see DC cancelling his book in favor of the Titans. When things are good, Nightwing and Titans sell roughly the same, with Nightwing maybe selling a little better on average. I assume the idea there would be that, with no Nightwing solo, all those wingnut fans would go to Titans and essentially double that book's sales right? But that's assuming there's no overlap between fanbases and I don't think that's the case; I think most Nightwing fans are also Titans fans so all that would happen is DC would lose potential revenue. Now, maybe DC would still do it, gods know they've done stupid stuff before with no regard to their own profit, but I like to think Jim Lee is smarter than Didio is when it comes to these franchises.
This is also assuming DC decides to push the Titans, and I dunno if that's in the cards. AT&T might push for it given how successful the Titans are outside of comics, and maybe Lee has more faith in the brand than Didio did, but Nightwing is still (usually) one of the company's highest selling non-League, non-Harley books so I feel like there isn't much to gain by making the Titans title the only place to find Nightwing. I suspect that Dick will keep his solo regardless of what is done with Titans....but I've been wrong before.
Making the Titans the only place to find Nightwing would also likely mean the Bat editorial office gives up Nightwing to whichever office controls the Titans, and I don't think they'll do that. They could put the Titans under the Bat office, but when DC does stuff like that (putting Wonder Woman under the Super office for example) the book never gets quality attention. What would likely happen is the Bat editors would focus on the Bat books, and the Titans would get half assed effort resulting in a low quality, low selling book. So once again, DC probably would end up losing money by getting rid of the Nightwing solo.
[QUOTE=Claude;5089293]Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.
Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.[/QUOTE]
I saw that! Would be amazing if we got Ross on a Titans book.
Nightwing has been most irrelevant when he has his own title. And the Titans was at its peak when he was allowed to lead and develop in the book.
I wanna amend my previous post. That was a knee-jerk reaction and I forgot about the "Red Hood & the Outlaws" approach, and was thinking in terms of franchise, brand, and sales, without considering individual characters and DC's past struggles to find a purpose for them.
I could see DC doing a "Nightwing & the Titans" book, where Dick is essentially the main character and the likes of Donna and Wally serve as something between supporting cast and co-stars. Just as how the Outlaws book is primarily driven by Jason but Artemis and Bizarro get plenty of attention and importance too.
DC would still make more money with a Nightwing book and a Titans book, but they've struggled with the Titans for so damn long, I can see them doing this. Donna and Wally and most of the Titans are homeless and can barely manage to appear in their mentor titles, while Dick can't hold onto a supporting cast. This would solve both problems and DC isn't likely to care about which editor group controls the Titans.
[QUOTE=DurararaFTW;5089284][url]https://64.media.tumblr.com/a682ec7d3fd54c792fb83b24f5318dd6/29f2f482281a13b8-15/s1280x1920/590774c1422660fa9097b54c6c312162313d6af9.jpg[/url]
I don't see any Titans here either. I got Oracle, Signal, Batwoman, Orphan, Robin and Nightwing and someone in a cape fighting alongside Orphan.
But the solicitation for Nightwing #75 says his Teen Titans friends will help restore his memories but it also says Alfred will help so we might still not have anyone outside the Batfamily actually show up to help personally.[/QUOTE]Yeah, the only Titans on that art are Nightwing and Robin.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5089299]Well, there's problems with Batgirl/Oracle.
As Batgirl, Babs doesn't matter. She's just another vigilante in a city over crowded with vigilantes. Babs' role in big stories and Events has dropped off to nothing and in-universe Babs is a total non-factor (she wasn't even part of the 'Tec era Gotham Knights). And I don't believe her sales are great either; the Burnside run seemed to sell well enough but that seems to be an exception, not the rule.
But "classic" Oracle is harder to write a monthly series around. Comics from indie publishers can get away from the typical superhero trappings, but a classic Oracle title would break the superhero mold and fans don't seem to want that kind of stuff from DC, they want spandex and violence. So returning Babs to Oracle poses big challenges, and the Oracle name isn't nearly as well known or iconic as Batgirl.
DC could just split the difference; Babs keeps the Batgirl name but operates in much the same way Oracle did, except instead of using a strike team like the Birds of Prey Babs does all the field work herself. That would set Babs apart from other heroes and give her the in-universe importance of Oracle but lets her stay in the action and keep the "bigger" name as well.[/QUOTE]Based on Cass and Steph's costumes in the Batman #100 art, they're both going to be Batgirl. I think the three of them will form a team.
[QUOTE=Claude;5089293]Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.
Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.[/QUOTE]
If you didn't see it, I posted it in the Titans thread. Something is coming...
[QUOTE=Ascended;5087992]I dont think I've seen Bermejo draw Nightwing before.
I gotta say I prefer the more high tech versions of Nightwing's suit but Bermejo's talent just cannot be questioned, the guy is so fantastic at what he does!
So do we have any word yet on what'll be happening with Dick post-75? Any tweets from creators or whatever? I'm assuming any news will wait until that Fandome event but I don't really do social media, outside of occasionally checking facebook.[/QUOTE]Aren't November solicits due before Fandome?
Sticking him in Titans exclusively for a while might not be the worse thing, if for no other reason then to give the solo a break after Ric. Especially since they don’t seem interested in even protecting his return. There are no guarantees he’ll fair any better in Titan, the last Titans series certainly didn’t do him any favors, but giving his solo series a break after Ric might let the stink wear off and create time for pitch ideas. Don’t see the Bat office letting go of it though. From their stand point Nightwing is easy work they can toss to whomever with seemingly no accountability.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;5089471]
Based on Cass and Steph's costumes in the Batman #100 art, they're both going to be Batgirl. I think the three of them will form a team.[/QUOTE]
"Babs & the Batgirls" :D sounds like a pop band.
I agree though, it looks like Steph and Cass are returning to their Batgirl costumes, I forgot about that from the promo image. But if we end up with several Batgirls running around, DC will do something to differentiate them in a stupid obvious manner (look at how they handle the Robins), so Babs returning to a more Oracle-like role while retaining the Batgirl name and costume would be fitting.
[QUOTE]If you didn't see it, I posted it in the Titans thread. Something is coming...[/QUOTE]
I didn't see it, thanks for sharing. Doesn't tell us much though. Ross drew Starfire and it's tied to some announcement. Could be damn near anything; Justice League Odyssey, a Starfire solo, a NTT reunion, a Dark Multiverse one-shot, a "Marvels" style "history of DC" mini, a "Tamaran Attacks!" Event.....odds are it's another Titans reunion but you never know. And the question remains if DC would cancel Nightwing and limit him to a single Titans book the same way they have Wally and Donna. I still don't see that happening, if anything they'll put those Titans in Nightwing's book Red Hood style, but like I said, y'never know.
[QUOTE]Aren't November solicits due before Fandome?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but solicits are all screwed up already. We normally get those months in advance, but we got August solicits in mid-July. Between the pandemic and the new distributors and all the 5G plans getting changed/dropped/whatever at the last minute.....November solicits might not actually hit until December. :p
He was written worse in the last Titans series than he was written in the awful Ric story. Abnett's Dick Grayson remains the worse written version of the character I've ever read. The Titans franchise has been a complete disaster in the comics for over two decades. People looking at the Titans as some saving grace and a place to rehabilitate his character doesn't line up with what we have seen from the franchise in a long time.
I remember an interview at some point where Abnett said that he didn't bother giving much focus to Dick because he had his own solo and so he both didn't need the spotlight and also had less freedom to work with.
And that's true, Dick's single greatest achievement occurred not in his solo features in the Batman and Detective Comics books but in the pages of the New Teen Titans, when the editors sought to keep the character.
what is Nightwing's unique rogues' gallery at this point?
I feel like Dick had quite a bit of focus in both of Abnett's Titans runs, but Abnett just wrote the character terribly. He was weak willed, failed every encounter her had, fell into the generic leader with no personality trap, and worst of all was him rolling over and letting Batman and the JL run his team for him and having Roy mock him. Then in Abnett's second run on the book when Dick was remaking his team he was acting like he had his balls back and wouldn't listen to anything the JL wanted, but then immediately did exactly what the JL wanted and moved his team to work out of JL's Headquarters. The only good thing about Dick getting shot in the head is that he didn't have to be in that book anymore.
I get that some fans really like the Titans and think of it as this place that can save Dick's character, but nothing in the comics in decades has given any indication that will happen. I mean if you want to say that Dick has been awful in the Titans for decades because of his solo that doesn't really excuse how badly the rest of the Titans have been treated in the franchise that don't have solo's. It is just a terrible franchise in the comics with no direction and I don't have any confidence it will be the place to save him.
Preach. The Titans is not the book that'll save Dick. Hell, the Titans are the ones that need saving, Dick just needs a decent writer and an editor who remembers he's not Robin anymore. But exiling him to the Titans is only going to make things worse; that's one of the few "classic DC" properties that DC abuses worse than they do Dick.
But given the news tonight about all the layoffs at DC and WB....well, I wasn't worried about Dick's book when the Ric sales finally started to drop. I haven't been worried about Dick losing his solo for more than a short break before a relaunch. But now, with the DC product line supposedly being cut to ribbons? Well f*ck, now I'm concerned. Nightwing's low sales are easy to justify based on the content and quality, but I dunno if anyone is gonna be given the chance to defend it. If DC cuts the bottom half of their titles....well I don't know if Ric has dragged the book that low or not but it wouldn't surprise me. This prolonged failure at "Born Again" might actually end up putting Dick's solo in danger because of these cuts.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5090266]But given the news tonight about all the layoffs at DC and WB....well, I wasn't worried about Dick's book when the Ric sales finally started to drop. I haven't been worried about Dick losing his solo for more than a short break before a relaunch. But now, with the DC product line supposedly being cut to ribbons? Well f*ck, now I'm concerned. Nightwing's low sales are easy to justify based on the content and quality, but I dunno if anyone is gonna be given the chance to defend it. If DC cuts the bottom half of their titles....well I don't know if Ric has dragged the book that low or not but it wouldn't surprise me. This prolonged failure at "Born Again" might actually end up putting Dick's solo in danger because of these cuts.[/QUOTE]I hope they do at least some kind of Batfamily book, if the cut the solos (if Nightwing doesn't get one it is highly unlikely anyone else will).
Most of these characters are to popular to put them completely in limbo.
With the huge cuts DC just had, Titans probably is the safest place for Dick right now.
[QUOTE=Aahz;5090408]I hope they do at least some kind of Batfamily book, if the cut the solos (if Nightwing doesn't get one it is highly unlikely anyone else will).
Most of these characters are to popular to put them completely in limbo.[/QUOTE]
Under normal circumstances, absolutely. Right now? Who knows?
I figure it could go any of these ways;
Dick is one of the lucky ones who gets to keep his book. If that happens, then we probably end up with better creators since most of the bad writers are likely getting cut. Best case scenario right here.
Dick loses his solo but ends up in a team book, maybe something like the 'Tec era Gotham Knights, but more likely a Titans reunion title.
Dick loses his solo and appears in no current content but gets reprints of classic stories, Dixon, NTT, etc.
Dick only shows up in a OGN somewhere, like Lost Carnival or something.
Dick ends up in a digital title, maybe a solo or maybe a team book....my cynicism says it'll be a team book.
I think a lot will depend on who decides what books get cut, and how deeply they look at those titles. If all you do is tell an accountant to look at the sales for the last two years, then Dick is in trouble. If you look at a wider stretch of sales history, brand recognition, and/or larger media profile, or you get someone who's familiar with DC and its history to decide what stays and what goes, then Nightwing is in a much better position.
We will see, but I think if Dick doesn't get a book, then DC is really cutting their line-up back to just the big 6 and maybe Harley Quinn.
And he would be likely one of the first characters to get a book should they decide to expand again.
But imo nightwing, Batgirl and Robin have next to the big 6 and maybe Harley Quinn to stick around in some way.
[url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/death-metal-2-beats-empyre-1-in-the-bleeding-cool-bestseller-list/[/url]
[url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/heroes-wear-face-masks-bleeding-cool-bestseller-list-14th-june-2020/[/url]
Nightwing is selling good again now that Joker War has started, there's plenty to cut that hasn't seen a top 10 in years.
Well, that's only for the week, but still good news. At this point, I feel like Dick needs every advantage he can get to survive the culling.
If anyone outside the Big 6 and Harls is going to stick around, Dick's got good odds but I would've felt a whole hell of a lot safer back when he was selling double what he has been lately.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5090963]Well, that's only for the week, but still good news. At this point, I feel like Dick needs every advantage he can get to survive the culling.
If anyone outside the Big 6 and Harls is going to stick around, Dick's got good odds but I would've felt a whole hell of a lot safer back when he was selling double what he has been lately.[/QUOTE]
As you say, Dick's got good odds that he will stock around (honestly, he could appear in OGN too).
The question is whether he will mantain his solo, which seems pretty uncertain. It seems that only the big names have a chance.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised he end up in a Titans book (after all, Titans is popular in other media). Or a "Bat-family" book.