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[center]Scott McDaniel's rendition of Dick's acrobatic prowess will always be memorable...
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...as well as McDaniel's version of a defiant Grayson!
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[QUOTE=qwazer07;4958979]Helena was a better pairing than Babs. Bat writers destroying every other pairing to promote their DickBabs ship is an abomination.[/QUOTE]
You can’t mean that, she is at most the equivalent of black cat for Spider-Man
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4958952]Nightwing just loses in the movies while the Scrappy-Doo of the Bat family gets the spotlight everytime. The writers obviously loves to wank BlOoD sOn "Robin". I hope Damian never returns.[/QUOTE]
Scrappy doo ? How old are you ?
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4958867]True! But nightwing is always playing the support role, he's never the lead. His job in the movie the movies is to put over the lead villains and heros.
You what nightwing to be more competent? Than he needs to not always play the role of "background dancer" all the time.[/QUOTE]
I mean in other media he has done pretty well. Does this mean he should be taken away from the Batfam for a bit? I'm not saying he shouldn't be part. Rather just be on his own for a bit.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4959480]I mean in other media he has done pretty well. Does this mean he should be taken away from the Batfam for a bit? I'm not saying he shouldn't be part. Rather just be on his own for a bit.[/QUOTE]
Almost the opposite, I think - Dick and Bruce's relationship is so hazily defined these days, and alternates between warm and acrimonious, and they spend so little panel time together for characters with so much history dependent on each other, I think we've reached the point where we need two Bruce and Dick Maxi-Series. One "Batman And Robin", one "Batman And Nightwing". The first with them as partners in Gotham, working with the original Justice League as a duo, the second with them using independent resources - Dick using Spyral information and getting help from Titans friends, Bruce using the wider Bat Family and the "current" League to work against a common threat.
Force them on the page together. Make "shared" characters like Damian and Superman a virtue. You could come up with something pretty interesting, and both characters would benefit.
(Or stuff them up for a generation if it went wrong.)
I would also accept "Batman And Robin" for the first maxi series becoming "Wayne And Grayson" for the second.
I don't know how to feel about Soyal since Batman already has a good amount of tech to get info. That and Dick can just use other people in the Batfam. We really need a reason for him. He can also use TT
First off, McDaniel is *still* the best Nightwing artist, I think. Man that guy's work back in the day just blew my mind. I'd spend hours pouring over his panels. His sense of motion was virtually unrivaled in American comics back then, I think. Him and Ramos were the "go to" artists if you needed something that really popped.
As for Dick's connections to Bruce....they need to be there. Bruce is a big part of Dick's history and life. Dick *is* a Bat. And DC would be foolish to forget that; Batman's status can (and has) helped elevate Nightwing's profile.
The problem we have, and we've all talked about this for years now, is that DC isn't letting Dick be *more* than a Bat, and they're not letting him be *more* than Bruce's sidekick. But Nightwing can and should still retain his heritage and history. That just shouldn't be *all* he is. Dick can be a Bat and also be an independent hero with his own vibe and his own narrative. DC just has to stop treating the guy like a sidekick who happens to have a solo. They just have to admit that there's more of importance to Dick than Gotham, and lean into his whole history instead of pretending that only the Gotham stuff mattered.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4959953]First off, McDaniel is *still* the best Nightwing artist, I think. Man that guy's work back in the day just blew my mind. I'd spend hours pouring over his panels. His sense of motion was virtually unrivaled in American comics back then, I think. Him and Ramos were the "go to" artists if you needed something that really popped.
As for Dick's connections to Bruce....they need to be there. Bruce is a big part of Dick's history and life. Dick *is* a Bat. And DC would be foolish to forget that; Batman's status can (and has) helped elevate Nightwing's profile.
The problem we have, and we've all talked about this for years now, is that DC isn't letting Dick be *more* than a Bat, and they're not letting him be *more* than Bruce's sidekick. But Nightwing can and should still retain his heritage and history. That just shouldn't be *all* he is. Dick can be a Bat and also be an independent hero with his own vibe and his own narrative. DC just has to stop treating the guy like a sidekick who happens to have a solo. They just have to admit that there's more of importance to Dick than Gotham, and lean into his whole history instead of pretending that only the Gotham stuff mattered.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.
100% man. Like I'm not asking for dick to be disconnected form the bat franchise. Only that he could and should be alot more than that. Dick's a bat yes, but at this point he should be a DCU character first and bat second.
Nightwing's growth will come when he's more independent from batman (not disconnected) and more connected to the DCU.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4959215]Scrappy doo ? How old are you ?[/QUOTE]
My age doesn't matter. LOL. Nightwing is badass. That's what matters.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4960146]Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.[/QUOTE]
When he became police officer in Bludhaven, I think that's the best opportunity to give Dick his own Gordon, like he gets close to commissioner of Bludhaven and secretly encourages him to work together with Nightwing. Sad that his days as police officer didn't last long...
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4960146]Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a big fan of rules in writing. But I do like guidelines.
I think I've said this before, but I'd be happy if the Gotham crew could make small cameos as often as the Nightwing writer wants them to; stuff like Dick having dinner with Damian or Bruce or calling Babs to ask her about a tricky computer virus he's investigating, stuff like that. Appearances that don't deeply impact the plot and are limited to a page or so.
Having the Bats show up in a meaningful way, where they're probably in costume and help Dick with a mission and are deeply involved for an issue or three, should happen once every 18-24 months.
Major crossovers where the books tie together should happen every 24 months at most. These are big, drawn out narratives that usually are only tangentially connected to Dick and while those can help bring sales up a little in the short term, as people follow the crossover from one book to the others, I think that consistent world building for Dick will provide much greater returns in the long run and do a better job building his fanbase.
Same applies to Titans and Supers and whoever else.
As for a Gordon, I don't mind Dick having contacts in the civilian sectors; most heroes do. I mean, even Superman has contacts like Dan Turpin, Maggie Sawyer, and Inspector Henderson. But Dick needs his own mythos and setting and cast, and that doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a simple copy of Gotham. So if he's got a friend in the PD somewhere, fine, but that dynamic needs to be built to advance and compliment Dick Grayson, not be something of Bruce's that got re-purposed and slapped onto Dick's world just because Dick's a Bat so he obviously needs a Gordon.
[QUOTE=Light of Justice;4960625]When he became police officer in Bludhaven, I think that's the best opportunity to give Dick his own Gordon, like he gets close to commissioner of Bludhaven and secretly encourages him to work together with Nightwing. Sad that his days as police officer didn't last long...[/QUOTE]
Dick also looks very hot in that police uniform. He has great sex appeal which I believe should be considered in future decisions.
Lost Carnival is out on digital, it's... black and white line art with blue shading, which is... not exactly my favorite... don't like it actually, since blue and black on white paper reminds me of a draft.
How's the story? I think I can deal with a black-white-blue color palate. That Harley Breaking Glass OGN is in black-white-red and what I've seen of it doesn't look too bad (bought it for the wife). Not my preferred approach to art but I can roll with it, especially if it fits the mood. But if the story isn't worthwhile then the art won't save it.
So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?
[QUOTE=Ascended;4961338]How's the story? I think I can deal with a black-white-blue color palate. That Harley Breaking Glass OGN is in black-white-red and what I've seen of it doesn't look too bad (bought it for the wife). Not my preferred approach to art but I can roll with it, especially if it fits the mood. But if the story isn't worthwhile then the art won't save it.[/QUOTE]
Haven't read it
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4961447]So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?[/QUOTE]
He can hack ATM, motion sensors, and Justice League satellite
Isn't undercover more demanding?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4961447]So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?[/QUOTE]Dick being a cop limits him as a superhero because it demands to much time in bludhaven. No time for teams or adventures out of bludhaven.
People bring up the titans tv but you see as soon he meets raven he stops doing his 9 to 5 job so he could travel across country in season 1 and Sanfansico in season 2.
Dick as a cop only works if he's limited to low level street hero not apart of the larger hero community.
I still think a normal job goes against the grain of the character. Dick's very much deeply entrenched in escapist fantasy. He's the kid who got to be a superhero, long before that sort of thing was common. He's the freewheeling acrobat, reveling in his freedom (both thematically and functionally) and his devil-may-care attitude.
Dick having to stamp a time card ruins all of that. Dick having the responsibilities that we regular people do dulls the shine and appeal of the character.
Don't tie strings to him in the form of a 401k and taxes. Let the dude roam the world, be a superhero, and have fun (with the occasional bout of angst thrown in, because Dick does like to brood on occasion). The idea of a normal civilian life just does not fit him, and efforts to make it fit always, always, always fail. Every time. We all need to learn the lesson and stop trying to force it. Dick Grayson is not a "regular job" kind of guy. Why we trying to make him something he's not?
[QUOTE=Ascended;4962260]I still think a normal job goes against the grain of the character. Dick's very much deeply entrenched in escapist fantasy. He's the kid who got to be a superhero, long before that sort of thing was common. He's the freewheeling acrobat, reveling in his freedom (both thematically and functionally) and his devil-may-care attitude.
Dick having to stamp a time card ruins all of that. Dick having the responsibilities that we regular people do dulls the shine and appeal of the character.
Don't tie strings to him in the form of a 401k and taxes. Let the dude roam the world, be a superhero, and have fun (with the occasional bout of angst thrown in, because Dick does like to brood on occasion). The idea of a normal civilian life just does not fit him, and efforts to make it fit always, always, always fail. Every time. We all need to learn the lesson and stop trying to force it. Dick Grayson is not a "regular job" kind of guy. Why we trying to make him something he's not?[/QUOTE]Yea DC needs to to look at dick and ask what fits nightwing as a character and concept. Not how to make him fit under batman.
It’s a symptom of comic creators over conditioned in cycling out traditional superhero stories and recreating the same formulas that have worked for other characters.
Yeah, I would 5000x more want to see Dick as a vagabond traveling the world and doing odd jobs to make ends meet than see him as a cop or bartender again. Pure "itchy feet" Dick could be workable.
I say private investigator would fit Dick. He can travel to solve the cases and go undercover for odd jobs. Use Babs or other things to get his info.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4962470]Yeah, I would 5000x more want to see Dick as a vagabond traveling the world and doing odd jobs to make ends meet than see him as a cop or bartender again. Pure "itchy feet" Dick could be workable.[/QUOTE]
It'd be interesting seeing him operate without the resources too. Like when he moved to Chicago and couldn't even repair his costume.
It's not the direction I'd want to take him (as you know) but it could be pretty interesting, and far more true to his character than holding down some mundane job that any smuck could do.
I mean he doesn't want to live off Bruce. He wants to make his own money. If we have to give him money has a Superman only copyrights would work. With him not living off resources. Why not have him build them himself? That would be interesting. He looks around for tech parts or learns to sew.
Yeah, I still think the old pitch thread turned out my favorite (hypothetical) Nightwing status ever.
Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]96542[/ATTACH]
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4965702]
Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]96542[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Oh, I [I]like[/I] that.
Yeah, do that.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4965702]Yeah, I still think the old pitch thread turned out my favorite (hypothetical) Nightwing status ever.
Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]96542[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
I’d try to make it more a bird so it’s not so close to Black Lightning but honestly it looks really great. Adds a nice variety of color to his suit.
As long as dick is single him having a career is not importantly can get by make money
I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4965871]I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?[/QUOTE]
Red Hood's making money as a mercenary with Arsenal if that's what you mean, but they're Outlaws. Dick's more of a straight superhero that won't sell his service for money.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4962296]Yea DC needs to to look at dick and ask what fits nightwing as a character and concept. Not how to make him fit under batman.[/QUOTE]
the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
he would have to not be
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[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4966238]Red Hood's making money as a mercenary with Arsenal if that's what you mean, but they're Outlaws. Dick's more of a straight superhero that won't sell his service for money.[/QUOTE]
Maybe a P.I work. He sets his own hours and travel. Not only that but maybe for this to work he was a cop at one point but maybe he had to quit or was fired. He still has good connections. It's just people keep saying they want him to have a job yet nothing works. I mean I thought maybe Dick has Nightwing could make money from copyrights
Can anyone think of guidelines that you think DC should have?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4965871]I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?[/QUOTE]Well sense this is supposed to be a shared universe, what if dick became zatanna's manager?
He could travel around the world make deals, setting up shows and events as her PR.manager. This would allow dick to be more DCU connected and travel the world and remain in the entertainment industry and spotlight that he was born to be apart of.
Dick could even get some of that fame spotlight as the person that introduces zatanna on stage and continue his family legacy as apart of the live entertainment industry.
5 issue tie-in? Ridiculous. Not that I was gonna be reading anyway but who would?
Also Joker Warzone lol.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4966424]
Can anyone think of guidelines that you think DC should have?[/QUOTE]
Guidelines specifically about a job, or just in general?
I think there's a few key factors to keep in mind with Nightwing.
1. He's not an Everyman. Despite being a real down to earth guy, Dick doesn't have the background or the trappings associated with the "normal dude." He's not Peter Parker and it goes against his character to burden him with common limitations like paying bills, getting his car registered, etc. He's superhero royalty; a super hot, hyper capable, well known rock star and one of the most trusted voices in his community, and the details and stress points of his life should not mirror that of the common man.
2. Dick Grayson is a Bat. But that's not all he is and his connections to the wider DCU, specifically the Titans and (to a lesser extent) Superman have had a deep impact and influence on him and his life. Nightwing adventures should not look like Batman adventures; Dick is just as comfortable dealing with aliens and high-concept problems as he is fighting lunatics with weird gimmicks in the streets.
I think if you follow those two guidelines, you're well positioned to create a decent Nightwing, or at least something that will feel uniquely like Dick Grayson and not a generic street level vigilante.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4966810]5 issue tie-in? Ridiculous. Not that I was gonna be reading anyway but who would?
Also Joker Warzone lol.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why sales are still as high as they are, honestly. Given the delay in publishing and everything that's happening, I sorta expect to see sales drop a lot more. By the time #75 rolls around I wouldn't be surprised to see the book selling 10K, maybe even less.
I sure as hell won't be supporting it. When Dick is back as Nightwing and has quality creators I'll come back happily, and might even buy two copies. But I won't pay for this trainwreck they're offering.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4966382]the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
he would have to not be
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I think we already knew from solicits and the TPB pre-orders that Nightwing's next five issues are tie-ins? It also ends with him back to normal, so thanks, Joker!:D
we're almost over the horizon
[QUOTE=Ascended;4966954]Guidelines specifically about a job, or just in general?
I think there's a few key factors to keep in mind with Nightwing.
1. He's not an Everyman. Despite being a real down to earth guy, Dick doesn't have the background or the trappings associated with the "normal dude." He's not Peter Parker and it goes against his character to burden him with common limitations like paying bills, getting his car registered, etc. He's superhero royalty; a super hot, hyper capable, well known rock star and one of the most trusted voices in his community, and the details and stress points of his life should not mirror that of the common man.
2. Dick Grayson is a Bat. But that's not all he is and his connections to the wider DCU, specifically the Titans and (to a lesser extent) Superman have had a deep impact and influence on him and his life. Nightwing adventures should not look like Batman adventures; Dick is just as comfortable dealing with aliens and high-concept problems as he is fighting lunatics with weird gimmicks in the streets.
I think if you follow those two guidelines, you're well positioned to create a decent Nightwing, or at least something that will feel uniquely like Dick Grayson and not a generic street level vigilante.
I don't know why sales are still as high as they are, honestly. Given the delay in publishing and everything that's happening, I sorta expect to see sales drop a lot more. By the time #75 rolls around I wouldn't be surprised to see the book selling 10K, maybe even less.
I sure as hell won't be supporting it. When Dick is back as Nightwing and has quality creators I'll come back happily, and might even buy two copies. But I won't pay for this trainwreck they're offering.[/QUOTE]
Now that you mention it you're right. Tim is the everyman, not Dick. I wonder why I keep getting the impression of everyman and comparison with Peter Parker... oh right... Dixon's Bludhaven pretty much establishes the impression that he's a poor bachelor by placing him in a low-cost apartment in a dangerous neighborhood... although he does like that kind of place, it's because he wants to help, not because he doesn't have money... but visually, at a glance, it made him looks like an everyman, a young man fresh out of college vying for independence, not a man on a mission.
The reason he stayed in Bludhaven, in that area, was because he has a mission, very different than Peter Parker.
...and knowing that his stay in Bludhaven began as a mission, this puts Dixon's Bludhaven in another new light for me, that it's basically the same as Grayson, but far longer.
It even has an ending because right before Infinite Crisis, Devin Grayson made Dick go undercover in the mob and arrange events so they stay out of Bludhaven. Blockbuster's gone, BPD is clean with Amy at the top, Penguin's gone, the mob stayed away, it's a good ending. He's done. He can leave, but at this point, of course, he already made a home and friends in Bludhaven that he wants to stay, until the Chemo nuke happened.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4966382]the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
he would have to not be
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That's not a Tie-in that's a whole arc! We can even count the current 2 issues with Punchline to make up a whole trade... unless it's already included, I forget which issue we're on and I don't care...
Detective Comics I can see because they have the same character, but Nightwing and Batgirl... this just shows they don't have anything to do and no other plan right now that they can afford to dedicate a whole arc for this.