Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Ascended;5124680]Possible. But let's keep in mind that DC is under new management and the corporate structure has been completely upended. It is entirely possible that Dick starts getting better treatment going forward. Hell, he's already started getting better treatment than the last few years gave us, a little consistency and world building in his book isn't a huge stretch. The love interest is a quagmire they'll likely put off on resolving for a while (it's not a necessary element of the narrative while also being a huge pain in the ass) but if the character gets some real effort, this aspect of the IP will eventually have to be tackled too.

Given that AT&T seem to be big on synergy and the adaptation potential of the source material, and considering how popular Dick is in larger media, his odds of quality treatment might actually be higher than the odds of him still getting marginalized. I mean, if the goal now really is to push these IP's into bigger, new markets, Nightwing is better positioned than a lot of characters for it and if AT&T have half a brain, they'll recognize that. And this isn't even my fandom talking, this is the business. Far as I can tell, Dick is a IP that already does fairly well in larger media and still has plenty of growth potential.

Do we know how his YA OGN sold? I gave it a quick Google but didn't find anything.[/QUOTE]

The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital.

OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero.

Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).

double post by accident

[QUOTE=Ascended;5123513]For the same reason Bruce doesn't have Clark and Barry fix Gotham. Dick and Bruce might be part of teams in the wider DCU, but they're Bats first and foremost, which means their interactions with the supernatural and superhuman are largely limited to those team books (discounting the occasional low/mid-tier meta like Blockbuster or Croc) and their solo stuff is largely non-powered, street level vigilante adventures.

For Dick and Kori to be together, DC would have to acknowledge the Titans as something more than just the team Dick is sometimes a part of; they'd have to admit that the Titans side of Dick's history is a actual part of his personal life that matters to him, and not just a side gig.

DC *could* get Dick and Kori back together. But they won't, because that puts too much superhuman into the book when DC wants Dick limited to being a Bat.

For the same reason, we won't get the Nightwing-Power Girl ship that I endorse either. A flying alien, in a book about gritty street vigilantism? Perish the thought!

DC will likely just keep flip flopping between Babs and Kori, using one or the other for various "possible future" stories and adaptations, while the main canon cycles through short-term girlfriends who amount to less than Shawn did, with the occasional "will they/won't they" tease involving Babs (and Kori once in a while) without actually committing to anything. Which is a piss poor way to handle things, but is easier than actually putting any real thought or effort into the situation.[/QUOTE]

Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up. I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way

[QUOTE=Konja7;5124701]The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital.

OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero.

Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).[/QUOTE]

The focus is going to be on digital, and presumably OGN's, yes, but that doesn't negate the possibility of Nightwing being sorted out and his love life set straight.

In digital and OGN, while a lot of liberties can and will be taken, the stuff that proves to be popular will likely filter into the main canon when and where it can. Not a perfect analogy here, but consider things like kryptonite and the Fortress of Solitude. Green rocks that can hurt Superman originated in radio and filtered into main continuity and now kryptonite can be found in basically every Superman adaptation and story there is. The Fortress started out in the comics but never really had a strong visual identity outside of a giant key....until Donner did the stuff with the crystal castle, and now that aesthetic is used for the Fortress in the vast majority of Superman stories.

Bottom line, the stuff that works will stick, regardless of format. If a OGN tells a love story with Dick and Kori (or Babs, or Power Girl, or who the hell ever) and that proves very successful and adaptation-friendly, then that relationship has good odds of making its way into other formats too.

As far as the direct market goes, who the hell knows if Dick's solo will survive? It still sells in the top half of DC's rankings and Dick is still a pretty big character with tons of larger media presence under his belt, so I don't think his solo is dead in the water. And if it survives, the stuff that is successful in other formats will filter into the main canon when possible.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5124722]Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up. I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way[/QUOTE]

Well I believe the way for nightwing's growth is for him to become a titan first and foremost, you know the whole reason he became nightwing in the first place!

If the nightwing solo was written as a solo titans book there wouldn't be no problem with him dating superpowered aliens or humans or amazons or furry ect. There wouldn't be any limits on what nightwing could do or be.

But being a bat first and foremost has put the cuffs on him and with more and more bats nightwing just fades more and more into the background. That's one of the main reasons Grayson felt so good, it was dick with no limits no cuffs.

I mean we can have both of Dc doesn’t just treat him like a Bat. But a Bat and Titan. If they reopen it then it would open. Once moment in Bludhaven the next at the T tower.

I been thinking career wise. Community center that has a international branches. That way he is global traveling

I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.

It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.

Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.

[QUOTE=Badou;5129001]I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.

It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.

Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.[/QUOTE]
As you say, I don't think Judas Contract stood the test of time. Honestly, I don't see a big story for Dick there.

I read in this forum that Judas Contract was important for Dick, but I was dissapointed in that aspect when I read it.

Dick has two or three pages devoted to he becoming Nightwing, but the rest of the story hardly focuses on him.

The Judas Contract is probably the most adapted and retold DC Story of all time for what it's worth.

And yeah, it's unfortunate that he's not in the 3 Jokers. Fabok had said on Twitter that he and Johns had considered it, but ultimately decided to keep the story more focused. I think that Dick would have made an interesting counterpoint to the main cast coming from a healthier perspective with less deep trauma. Which would be a perfect role for Dick IMO. But I totally get it

[QUOTE=Badou;5129001]I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that. [/quote]

With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include [I]all[/I] of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down.

[quote]It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them.

Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center.

The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved. [/quote]

I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick [I]has[I][/I][/I] to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a [I]long[/I] time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.

[quote]I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.[/QUOTE]

Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic [I]Nightwing[/I] stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.

Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke.

Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.

DC and Dick would only benefit.

Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.

Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes.

Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.

Nightwing #74 Preview

[url]https://comixwire.com/2020/09/05/page-preview-and-covers-of-nightwing-74-comic-c20/[/url]

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5129427]Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.

Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes.

Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think New Teen Titans has many stories that focus on Dick, right?

Judas Contract is a popular story and Dick becomes Nightwing, but he is hardly the focus on that story

[QUOTE=Lazurus33;5130299]Nightwing #74 Preview

[url]https://comixwire.com/2020/09/05/page-preview-and-covers-of-nightwing-74-comic-c20/[/url][/QUOTE]

That smile is so irksome. I'd rather him be Ric lol.

[QUOTE=Claude;5129346]I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick [I]has[I][/I][/I] to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a [I]long[/I] time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.[/QUOTE]

Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.

Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?

But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5130727]Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.

Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?

But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.[/QUOTE]

What’s the point if f Batdaddy can shut them down anytime
Hell if they had stayed together Roy would be alive

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5130727]Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.[/QUOTE]

See, I don't know if it would need a HoX/PoX, but it would definitely need need a Green Lantern: Rebirth. Annoyingly, there's a parallel world out there where "Titans Hunt" had a better creative team, didn't have it's run truncated, and was any good at all - and it would have been perfect. The return of Wally West gave the series a sense of importance to the rest of the DCU - and a solid burst of goodwill that neither the miniseries nor the ongoing following on from it capitalised on at all. The fact that Abnett was given [I]three[/I] swings at relaunching Titans and flubbed it each time is hugely galling....


I'm still hoping that the combination of Tynion making a point of Deathstroke being motivated by animosity towards Dick in his "Batman", and Williamson getting five Death-Metal-significant issues of Justice League to reunite the Dick, Kori and Vic is some kind of unusually thought-through coordination.

Still, might not be long now - didn't Alex Ross's painting of the NTT have tags suggesting we'd hear more and Fandome II next weekend?

[QUOTE=Claude;5129346]With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include [I]all[/I] of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down.[/QUOTE]

My main problem with it comes from Johns using the Golden Age Joker. If he had used a different Joker I think I would feel differently, but I believe 100% of the Golden Age Joker's appearances Dick was always with Bruce. So for Johns to take that Joker and then use him specifically for Bruce and discount Dick's involvement completely didn't sit well with me. I feel like Dick being there for every single one of their encounters should matter at least some.

[QUOTE=Claude;5129346]I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick [I]has[I][/I][/I] to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a [I]long[/I] time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.[/QUOTE]

I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains.

I mean just look at what they did with that Rebirth story with Wally. They had this set up with his disappearance being caused by Dr Manhattan with so much hype around it, but when they started telling that story in the Titans book they couldn't use Manhattan because the Titans book isn't an important enough franchise to use that kind of villain. Instead they had Abra Kadabra be the cause of Wally's disappearance in an awful story. Instead of getting some other A-tier villain to use if Manhattan was off the table they used Abra Kadabra. That is the level the of villains and stories of the Titans franchise. They will never be treated or looked at like the JL where they face bigger or more important threats.

So I don't see what value the Titans comics can provide when their track record is filled with terrible stories. Even more so than Bludhaven. At least Bludhaven has produced some okay stories in the last 25 years, but for Dick the Titans has produced nothing. They are still just riding off their success from the 80s. I'd want to see that franchise produce a good, maybe even great, Dick Grayson story first before I'd even consider wanting Dick to give up his solo book.


[QUOTE=Claude;5129346]Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic [I]Nightwing[/I] stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.

Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke.

Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.

DC and Dick would only benefit.[/QUOTE]

The problem with Black Mirror and why I didn't count it in my previous post was because James Gordon Jr isn't an iconic villain. Dick just doesn't have any great stories with iconic villains with Dick as the focus which to me really stands out as a major flaw in the character's history. Since those are the kind of stories people gravitate to even as time goes on.

I've already said my peace about the Titans franchise above, but thinking about the whole situation more I think I realized the biggest mistake made with the character which connects to the Titans, and it might be my most controversial opinion. Dick never should have given up the Robin identity in the 80s. As successful as Nightwing has been it has never matched what Robin is, and Dick giving up that iconic identity lowered his ceiling.

I understand why it happened. With the NTT creators and the Batman creators being split on what to do with Robin. With the success of the NTT series in the 80s it made sense to them at the time to do what they did an create a new Robin for the Batman books to use and shift Dick to just be a Titans character, but looking back on it now that was a major mistake for the character. It was great for characters like Jason or Tim since it allowed them to exist, but it diffused the Robin identity and lessened Dick’s importance in the long run.

The 80s and early 90s really redefined Batman and had his creators produce many of the classic and iconic stories that are still read today. And Dick being absent from that era of stories because he gave up the Robin identity and was limited to just being in Titans hurt the character in the long run. Since those Titans stories of that era I don't think stood the test of time.

Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?

[QUOTE=Badou;5130827]I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, [B]but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered.

I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.

I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5130851]Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.

As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s.

I think he would have been better off in some ways.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5130851]Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?[/QUOTE]

I don't know if this is true, but I read Batman editorial wants Dick to be younger at that time, it has sense since they want Robin to be sidekick of Batman.

Mark Wolfman doesn't want this. As New Teen Titans was a big success at that time, he was able to avoid this, but Dick had to give up Robin identity.

If this had happened about 5 years later, Wolfman would not have been able to avoid this, since New Teen Titans would have lost most of his popularity.


So, the most likely is that Dick will be younger as Robin (honestly, the Crisis would be the perfect opportunity for this) and work with Batman again. Who knows what will happen with the other Titans.

When they want Batman to be solitary again (at the times of "A Death in the Family"), they won't kill him. They will probably put him in other comics.

That said, Dick will likely get a solo as Robin in the 90s (maybe even earlier).

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5131052]
I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.

As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s.

I think he would have been better off in some ways.[/QUOTE]

As I mentioned, if Dick mantained the Robin mantle, he wouldn't likely be an adult anymore. That likely will affect the Titans franchise too.

That said, Dick will likely grow again. And he will get a solo as Robin at some point (and his suit likely get pants), so he will be independent.

Yea. Dick is both a Batfam and titan first. So I wonder how long we will get to see both. With good writers it's not that harde to get a good nightwing story going.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5130851]Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking about that while writing my previous post. I guess there are two outcomes. One is that he keeps the Robin identity, but he still gets moved over to the Titans franchise full time and the Batman office creates a new young sidekick with a new identity to be Batman's partner. Maybe there would have been less backlash for a Jason-type character if he didn't "take" the Robin identity. So there wouldn't have been a push to kill him off in a Death in the Family type of story. So he might have stuck around and filled a Tim-like role into the 90s, but without the Robin identity I don't know how popular or successful he would have been.

Also with Dick still being Robin he might have gotten used in more Batman stories during that era even if he was still a Titans character. Since Robin is so important to Batman. So maybe a lot of those Batman stories in that era Dick would have been involved. Like Death in the Family if it still happened might have used him, Killing Joke might have used him if Dick is still prominent as Robin in the Batman stories, and the biggest change might have been the Knightfall story. It could have been completely different where after Bane breaks Batman maybe Dick takes on the Batman mantle to avenge him and defeat Bane instead of Jean-Paul Valley, which might have been the "iconic" Dick Grayson story that I was talking about originally with a big time villain that Dick doesn't have. Maybe Batman issue #500 could have been this landmark issue where it is Dick taking on the Batman identity instead of JPV. Then you figure Dick would have gotten a solo Robin book in the 90s when Tim did and it could still be running today and it might be looked at as a bigger title since it is Robin.

The other outcome is he keeps the Robin identity and gets moved back to the Batman books. I don't know if the NTT series would have stayed successful without him because Wally also left around that time. So for that book to lose two major characters might have damaged it a lot. Maybe they would have deaged Dick some if that was an intention the Batman office had when they took him back, but obviously this means that Jason and Tim probably never get created. Dick doesn't really miss out on any major Titans stories with the well known ones already having happened before this, and his role as Robin probably changes many of those Batman stories I mentioned above. Like if some version of Death in the Family still happens and Dick is the Robin in it he probably wouldn't have been killed off or at least brought back soon after. Then Dick still would have gotten that Robin solo book, which would have been different to Tim's given their different backgrounds, and I guess he might have been used in a new Young Justice team in the 90s with DC wanting to create a new team comprised of young versions of their main heroes.

The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5131052]Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered.

I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.

I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.[/QUOTE]

Trigon I'd concede on, even though he just has the one story, but I don't see how villains like Blackfire are any better than a Blockbuster. I'd even rate Blockbuster over her if I had to choose.

Maybe with Didio gone things will get better for the franchise, but I don't think it will. I just don't think the adult Titans work as a concept like I've mentioned before. As adults they are stuck between not being on the level of the JL and too old to be the "young" generation that is the hallmark of the Teen Titans/Young Justice franchises, even though as adults they still get treated as the young heroes to their detriment.

Yeah, I agree with that. Robin is one of the most iconic identities in all of comics. To expect an identity like Nightwing to measure up to that is asking for nearly the impossible. Though Nightwing has been successful for what it is. I don't want to discount that, but it just isn't Robin. I mean Nightwing doesn't even really have a solid origin story which is crazy to think about. The Judas Contract one isn't even canon anymore, the Batman firing him one isn't great and gets changed around, and I don't think DC ever even explained how Dick became Nightwing in the New 52. Then the Titans TV show came up with a brand new origin for it, haha. That is probably something else that hurts the Nightwing identity, but that is a whole different discussion.

So how should Robin become Nightwing?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5131663]So how should Robin become Nightwing?[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is because the type of stories I like, but I would rather that Dick becomes Nightwing in a story that totally focus on him.

Many say that Dick becomes Nightwing in a good story like Judas Contract.

However, I was dissapointed in that aspect of the story since Dick is hardly the focus there. I think he dissapear most of the arc, while the transition to Nightwing is two or three pages.

I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.

[QUOTE=Badou;5131259]The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.
[/QUOTE]
Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5131713]I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.[/QUOTE]

Well, Dick is perpetually 20s now. He is still considered a sidekick by DC, but he doesn't have the iconic mantle.

Honestly, the only way Dick could be totally independent and grow is if NTT mantained its success. They will likely reduce the age difference between Bruce and Dick, so both could be adults.

That said, I don't know if the concept of NTT (teen heroes looking for their place) could last a long time, which will always be problem in comics.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5131663]So how should Robin become Nightwing?[/QUOTE]

Ideally it would happen in some iconic story. Origin stories should be the easiest to make iconic, but Judas Contract isn't canon anymore and the origin of Bruce firing Dick from Robin and that being what makes him take on a new identity is horrible in my opinion. Bruce firing him and taking the Robin identity away completely removes all of Dick own agency for his growth as a hero. Bruce taking away an identity that Dick created himself just never sat well with me.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5131713]I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.[/QUOTE]

Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.

It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5131763]Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.[/QUOTE]

I always figured Wally was their first choice.

[QUOTE=Badou;5131943]
Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.

It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.[/QUOTE]

The problem is the strongest association of Robin is with Batman in general audience minds (even stronger than the association of Robin mantle with Dick).

That's why it is considered that Batman has the ownership with the identity. Only some big Dick fans (and not all) will care about Dick opinion about the new Robin.


Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5131966]
Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.[/QUOTE]

In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.

[QUOTE=Bikkun;5131989]In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.[/QUOTE]

Dick as Robin has a good amount of independent stories (and not only with Teen Titans). So, Dick as Robin being exclusively Batman's sidekick is people rewriting story due to concepts they associate with a character.

My point is that Batgirl has a strong association with Batman and there is an idea that Batman has certain ownership about that identity too. That's why Batman becomes mentor of Batgirl after some retcons (when she was pretty independent at first). Also, I remember some fans think Bruce will have some power of decision on Stephanie mantaining Batgirl mantle (in fact, Bruce had influence there) even when Barbara has already accepted her.

Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5132262]Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.[/QUOTE]

What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.

[QUOTE=Bikkun;5132278]What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.[/QUOTE]
Just wait for the next batman event. Dick may get shot in his famous butt next time.

Dick is becoming nightwing again in batman's book. I'd say where mostly at the point where batman controls nightwing.

Dick becoming Nightwing again is meaningless. He is just going right back to Jurgens so Jurgens can repeat the same thing he's been doing on Ric over and over. As to returning to Robin. Well they aren't, and haven't, been doing any better with Robin then they have with Nightwing.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5132262]Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.[/QUOTE]

He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception.

Switching topic

We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss?
In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.

In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5132386]He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception.

Switching topic

We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss?
In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.

In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day[/QUOTE]

Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.

it was never proposed to editorial.

If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.

Dick Grayson just like Harley Quinn, huntress etc are all batman supporting characters no matter how big they get they all still come under the Batman media franchise. Until they become so big to be their own franchises then they will always be seen by DC as Batman's support sadly

[QUOTE=dietrich;5132398]Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.

it was never proposed to editorial.

If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.[/QUOTE]

They never pitch the Tim one, but the Harper case did go as far as character design, and I don't see her just picking that identity on her own, she never even met him up to that point, so it has to be Bruce's idea. With Tim, it makes sense if he wants to take it on his own if he's written as his Post-Crisis self but King likes to change stuff or make up his own story, so who knows.